Sport vs Traditional

[dancingalone]

Unless you are fighting with no rules and any level of contact, what else would it be?

A partner-based drill. It's not 'fighting' for that matter either.

 

[miguksaram]

Not quite accurate. Han Moo Kwan training remained fairly non-sport till the 80's when it took a fairly dramatic turn towards sport training and competitions (at least for some HMK schools in the U.S.). The 50's is when it all began, but not every 'Kwan' took the exact same path or time line.

Just to toss this tidbit out.

I believe that my statement is correct depending on your PoV. My mention of the pioneers deal in the 1st generation kwans. No to say Lee, Kyo-yoon was not a pioneer, but HMK would be considered, in my PoV an off-shoot kwan. Plus, didn't HMK helped in this development back in '63 when Lee, Kyo-Yoon was assigned as one of the directors of the KTA?

 

[miguksaram]

A partner-based drill. It's not 'fighting' for that matter either.

Good point. Perhaps I should be more clear. I am referring to free form sparring.

 

[dancingalone]

Good point. Perhaps I should be more clear. I am referring to free form sparring.

Even free form sparring is a drill if you look at it in a pure sense. You and your partner(s) are working on developing range, movement, accuracy, timing, possibly the construction of combination attack and defense.

It's all in the goal - are you doing this to develop specific skills to win in a ring or are you trying to develop attributes also useful elsewhere?

Like I said, just because you pad up and engage with an antagonistic partner doesn't mean you are practicing sport. Sport is a natural outgrowth from the drill, and the two can become one and the same for *SOME* people. But this is not true for all.

 

[Steve]

We could also say that he was doing it only to show anger and not do any real harm. Perhaps well conditioned enough to pull the kick because he wanted to. If he went by his training he would have gone for a knock out since TKD fighters train their kicks to be hard. Perhaps trying to instigate an altercation?...like that of one guy pushing another guy.

I don't buy it. We've all been angry. If he was angry enough to kick the referee in the head at an international tournament... the Olympics no less... he wasn't in control enough to clearly think about what he was doing or why. I don't know the guy, but I'd bet my entire 401k account that he wasn't aiming to get banned from international competition. His action was purely emotional, and he sucker punched... err... kicked, a completely unprepared person. I don't believe he could have pulled the kick even if he wanted to unless it was so ingrained in his muscle memory that he literally didn't have it in him to kick at fully power.

 

[Xue Sheng]

TKD pioneers had the goal of unifying and developing the sport of TKD back in the 1950's. You stated you that trained in pre-olympic, non-sport TKD. So I was just asking if if you were trained in the 50's because that would have been the only time TKD was considered "non-sport" TKD. The students of the pioneers would have been trained with the goal set by the pioneers. Unless your teacher totally went off the ranch with how he was training his students, you were actually learning sport TKD as well. Unless you did not spar at all in your classes and did nothing but poomsae and line drills.

Did spar, don't know what to tell you, the class got seperated into sport and non-sport I did the non-sport, tried sport, didn't like it, stayed with non-sport and we still spared also did in close fighting drills and joint locks. Here is who I trained with if that helps

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't buy it. We've all been angry. If he was angry enough to kick the referee in the head at an international tournament... the Olympics no less... he wasn't in control enough to clearly think about what he was doing or why. I don't know the guy, but I'd bet my entire 401k account that he wasn't aiming to get banned from international competition. His action was purely emotional, and he sucker punched... err... kicked, a completely unprepared person. I don't believe he could have pulled the kick even if he wanted to unless it was so ingrained in his muscle memory that he literally didn't have it in him to kick at fully power.

Sorry, but I cannot agree with your observation. The guy was a jerk and wanted to school the ref, not injure him. WTF TKD is full contact continuous sparring. There is no pulling of your kicks. You are making a straw man argument. Just because someone is angry does not mean that they lose all self control.

You are basing your entire argument on a one one hundredth of a second action and not on facts. Tippy tappy pulled blows will not score in WTF TKD. Trembling shock is required and wins by KO are a part of the sport. He would never have gotten to the level of Olympic competition if he literally didn't have it in him to kick at full power.

People do all sorts of stupid stuff with the intent of putting someone in their place. I'm not going to speculate as to Matos' thought process, aside from that I dont think he really had one. He decided on the spot to deliver a b--ch slap with his foot. He probably just as easily could have chosen to sucker punch the ref in the gut. Neither act would put the man in the hospital and both would get the point across that he was upset and thought that he should not have been counted out. He chose the former.

I know that you are good about pointing out when people post things about BJJ that are erroneous, and I respect you for that. Others here have already returned the favor with regards to TKD. Your assessment is simply not accurate.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

OK... in the years Ive been teaching Ive never had one of my students come into the gym and tell me they have been #1. Mugged, #2 beaten up #3 attacked in a dark alley whatever. Now granted we live in the upper midwest so we are in a relatively mild area of the country and we teach both sport and traditional style however when I read the posts about how bad sport is and how they could never defend themselves I wonder... have you ever realy seen a so called "sport" trained TKD player not be able to defend themselves when they needed to. Now Im not talking about the my grandma herd about my cousin seeing someone saying that they saw someone getting their butt kicked. Im talking seeing in person. So for real. Have you actually seen it?

I suspect that the vast majority of MA-ists are adept at avoiding such situations as you describe. The fact that a skilled MA-ist carries themselves in such a way that they don't scream, "Victim!!!" probably makes the scenario less likely.

In the occurance of an attack on someone with an MA background, a lot of factors can tip the scales in the attacker's favor. An attacker has the option of when to initiate the fight. He or she is prepared to do bodilly harm to their chosen victim. Most MA-ists are simply going from point a to point b. While having MA training gives you specific tools to use in case of an attack, it does not make you invulnerable to an attack, nor does MA training guarantee a favorable outcome for you.

I don't think that it matters whether or not your art is sport, traditional, or whatever other label you choose to assign to it.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

...Here...

Thanks for the link. The one thing that I found interesting was that non of the instructors (not even the head) wore a black collard dobok.

 

[Steve]

Sorry, but I cannot agree with your observation. The guy was a jerk and wanted to school the ref, not injure him. WTF TKD is full contact continuous sparring. There is no pulling of your kicks. You are making a straw man argument. Just because someone is angry does not mean that they lose all self control.

You are basing your entire argument on a one one hundredth of a second action and not on facts. Tippy tappy pulled blows will not score in WTF TKD. Trembling shock is required and wins by KO are a part of the sport. He would never have gotten to the level of Olympic competition if he literally didn't have it in him to kick at full power.

People do all sorts of stupid stuff with the intent of putting someone in their place. I'm not going to speculate as to Matos' thought process, aside from that I dont think he really had one. He decided on the spot to deliver a b--ch slap with his foot. He probably just as easily could have chosen to sucker punch the ref in the gut. Neither act would put the man in the hospital and both would get the point across that he was upset and thought that he should not have been counted out. He chose the former.

I know that you are good about pointing out when people post things about BJJ that are erroneous, and I respect you for that. Others here have already returned the favor with regards to TKD. Your assessment is simply not accurate.

Daniel

No problem, Daniel. I'm stating my opinions, for what they're worth.

But I'll just say this one last comment. Hypothetically, you were at work, in the middle of an office, and your boss went to the well one too many times. Maybe he's had it in for you, and humiliates you in front of your peers. Whatever it is, you're so furious with him you are going to let him have it. You're going to tell him exactly what you think about him.

At this point, you're essentially quitting your job, and doing it in a very dramatic fashion. Chances are, you aren't thinking about that. You're in the moment. It's emotional. The brain processes emotion much faster than any other cognitive function. This is particularly true for fear and anger... road rage isn't premeditated. It's a function of an irrational, emotional response, and people act at that point without conscious rationale.

In the same way, this guy at the Olympics essentially quit his career in one moment of pure emotional static. He was so angry, he roundhouse kicked a referee. I mean... come on. Does that happen a lot? Where an athlete says, "I disagree with that referee. I think I'll warn him with a light tap to the side of his head with my foot!"

I'm willing to bet that if he were thinking straight, he would have realized what a bad idea that was... but he wasn't thinking straight.

And that's the only conclusion I can come to. He wasn't thinking straight. He was acting based on pure emotion. The alternative is that he considered his actions and decided to kick the ref anyway. Again. I don't buy it. call it the reptilian brain. Call it fight or flight. Call it a base emotional response. Whatever you might call it, it wasn't rational.

Ultimately, we can disagree, but to be clear I'm not commenting on how he trains. I'm commenting more on how his body actually worked when it was under pressure and acting on emotion without any rational oversight. And in that moment, his brain pulled his kick.

 

[puunui]

Wrong, we had foot work because we were training to fight

Again wrong, stance was rather centered and not back weighted and to throw in my CMA expeince Xingyiquan stance is back weighted and it hits like a truck

Again wrong we had just about every kick that sports TKD has and an axe kick is not a flippy kick from the knoee

You said you that your teacher was GM Jae Hun KIM, who was an ITF member. His style was basically sliding forward with front leg side kick as the main weapon. His best student is Michael O'Malley who was a multi time national team member. Master O'Malley went to train with the US National Team Coach at the time, GM Sang Lee, because he wanted to move away from the ITF style and learn steps and back leg roundhouse kick, which was hard to do coming from a back stance front leg style. I remember GM Lee saying that when he first started coaching the US National Team, few could do roundhouse kick on the paddle. He said he could not hold his chopsticks because they kicked his hand and thumb so many times. They resisted learning steps and stance because they felt they were champions and that front leg side kick was enough. But GM Lee went and actually worked out with the team and showed them why a step game using a weight (or more accurately attitude) forward stance with rear leg roundhouse as the predominant weapon was the way to go. They all converted and became very loyal to their coach and teacher for showing them the proper way.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

No problem, Daniel. I'm stating my opinions, for what they're worth.

But I'll just say this one last comment. Hypothetically, you were at work, in the middle of an office, and your boss went to the well one too many times. Maybe he's had it in for you, and humiliates you in front of your peers. Whatever it is, you're so furious with him you are going to let him have it. You're going to tell him exactly what you think about him.

At this point, you're essentially quitting your job, and doing it in a very dramatic fashion. Chances are, you aren't thinking about that. You're in the moment. It's emotional. The brain processes emotion much faster than any other cognitive function. This is particularly true for fear and anger... road rage isn't premeditated. It's a function of an irrational, emotional response, and people act at that point without conscious rationale.

In the same way, this guy at the Olympics essentially quit his career in one moment of pure emotional static. He was so angry, he roundhouse kicked a referee. I mean... come on. Does that happen a lot? Where an athlete says, "I disagree with that referee. I think I'll warn him with a light tap to the side of his head with my foot!"

I suspect that it was more of a 'how dare you?/I've been robbed' moment. Given that the Cuban coach accused the judges of taking bribes and that the judging in the events that I did see was less than stellar, not to mention the horror stories of a few years back regarding figure skating judges, it is possible that Matos had already been informed by his coach, 'we aint comin' back.' Who knows? It isnt' as if bribery and fixes in the olympics havn't been alleged before: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Olympic_Winter_Games_figure_skating_scandal

I'm willing to bet that if he were thinking straight, he would have realized what a bad idea that was... but he wasn't thinking straight.

Absolutely. He wasn't thinking straight... or at all.

And that's the only conclusion I can come to. He wasn't thinking straight. He was acting based on pure emotion. The alternative is that he considered his actions and decided to kick the ref anyway. Again. I don't buy it. call it the reptilian brain. Call it fight or flight. Call it a base emotional response. Whatever you might call it, it wasn't rational.

Ultimately, we can disagree, but to be clear I'm not commenting on how he trains. I'm commenting more on how his body actually worked when it was under pressure and acting on emotion without any rational oversight. And in that moment, his brain pulled his kick.

I'm not sure that you can say that you aren't commenting on how he trains; the only way to have ingrained muscle memory to pull kicks is to train it in.

Could be that he had one of those 'what am I doing???,' moments and pulled the kick.

Even I can pull a full force blow by choice. And I am a far cry from an Olympian.

Daniel

 

[Archtkd]

Angel Valodia Matos at the Beijing Olympics. He roundhouse kicked the ref in the head when the ref was completely off guard and it didn't hurt the ref at all. If there was ever a more compelling argument against point sparring, I haven't seen it.

With the way this debate is going it won't be surprising to see someone tell us the failure of the international referee -- a 4th Dan at least -- to defend himself against Matos and retaliate with a Tsunami of thundering kicks is another example of the purported uselessness of WTF sparring.

Now, would we be writing about the effectiveness of WTF Taekwondo training if Matos had decided to pick up a judge's chair and proceed to pummel the ref's face to a pulp?

Unless we've talked to Matos, something someone could do if they actually wanted to get to the bottom of this, we can't know what he was thinking. Also, people who look at some photos of the bout assume he threw a roundhouse kick. He did not. If I recall right, it was a left front leg hook kick (swipe), with the leg of the injured foot that he was nursing just before the fight ended. Why he specifically chose to do that remains a mystery

 

[miguksaram]

With the way this debate is going it won't be surprising to see someone tell us the failure of the international referee -- a 4th Dan at least -- to defend himself against Matos and retaliate with a Tsunami of thundering kicks is another example of the purported uselessness of WTF sparring.

Maybe the kick was good and the ref was just that tough and didn't need to block.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You said you that your teacher was GM Jae Hun KIM, who was an ITF member. His style was basically sliding forward with front leg side kick as the main weapon. His best student is Michael O'Malley who was a multi time national team member. Master O'Malley went to train with the US National Team Coach at the time, GM Sang Lee, because he wanted to move away from the ITF style and learn steps and back leg roundhouse kick, which was hard to do coming from a back stance front leg style. I remember GM Lee saying that when he first started coaching the US National Team, few could do roundhouse kick on the paddle. He said he could not hold his chopsticks because they kicked his hand and thumb so many times. They resisted learning steps and stance because they felt they were champions and that front leg side kick was enough. But GM Lee went and actually worked out with the team and showed them why a step game using a weight (or more accurately attitude) forward stance with rear leg roundhouse as the predominant weapon was the way to go. They all converted and became very loyal to their coach and teacher for showing them the proper way.

I know who Mike O'Malley is, he use to rip the tops of off kick bags at the Worcester Ma School and fill in for Mr Kim as the teacher in Worcester from time to time. And I am not sure what if any org Mr. Kim was associated with in the early 70s since I did not much care.

I do not know what to tell you either, I did not train a back stance with Mr. Kim but then I am younger than Mike O'Malley whatever that may mean. It also could be your definition of a back stance as compared to mine. Xingyiquan has a stance that is weighted too the back and that is what I think of as a back stance and there was nothing close in what I trained

If it makes you happy I will just say Pre-Olympic TKD but other than that I have no idea what else to say about this it was what it was.


What is the point of all this anyway?

 

[puunui]

If it makes you happy I will just say Pre-Olympic TKD but other than that I have no idea what else to say about this it was what it was. What is the point of all this anyway?

I'm just trying to have a conversation with you. From what you wrote, it sounded like your dojang was at the cutting edge of Taekwondo in terms of stance, steps, etc at the time. I'm just trying to give you another perspective on what was actually being taught and used, which might be a little different from what you remember.

 

[mastercole]

Not quite accurate. Han Moo Kwan training remained fairly non-sport till the 80's when it took a fairly dramatic turn towards sport training and competitions (at least for some HMK schools in the U.S.). The 50's is when it all began, but not every 'Kwan' took the exact same path or time line.

Just to toss this tidbit out.

No, not sure who told you that, but it is incorrect, according to Han Moo Kwan's founder GM Kyo Yoon Lee.

Of all the Kwan's, Han Moo Kwan practitioners in Korea and worldwide, was and still is the least involved in WTF sparring events, thought GM Lee supports the mission of the WTF.

There is a good, and generally well known reason behind this fact.

Jeremy is correct though, pre-competition focused Taekwondo, would be in the 1940's and 1950's, actually we did not use the name Taekwondo then. We did not officially agree to use that name until 1965, so from the Day Taekwondo was born so to speak, it was considered a sport, and the Karate (and Taekkyon) that it evolved from was also considered a sport, well, according to Funakoshi Sensei it was a sport.

All martial arts are sports.

 

[puunui]

Thanks for the link. The one thing that I found interesting was that non of the instructors (not even the head) wore a black collard dobok.

That is because GM Lee has an ITF background and I guess hangs on to that, even though he has high Kukkiwon dan rank, 8th or 9th Dan.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I don't buy it. We've all been angry. If he was angry enough to kick the referee in the head at an international tournament... the Olympics no less... he wasn't in control enough to clearly think about what he was doing or why. I don't know the guy, but I'd bet my entire 401k account that he wasn't aiming to get banned from international competition. His action was purely emotional, and he sucker punched... err... kicked, a completely unprepared person. I don't believe he could have pulled the kick even if he wanted to unless it was so ingrained in his muscle memory that he literally didn't have it in him to kick at fully power.

Im no fan of sport tkd, but I have to say those guys kick hard, real hard in fact. They certainly are not trained to hold their kicks back, they are trained to kick your head off. I dont know why he held his kick back when he kicked the ref because they are not trained to do so. If he kicked the way he trained, then he would have killed that ref. Using that incident as an example of "light contact" simply makes no sense because those guys kick hard. If you dont believe me, then go spar with one of them like I did. I always thought they threw light "tappy" kicks until I sparred one of those guys, and boy was I wrong.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm just trying to have a conversation with you. From what you wrote, it sounded like your dojang was at the cutting edge of Taekwondo in terms of stance, steps, etc at the time. I'm just trying to give you another perspective on what was actually being taught and used, which might be a little different from what you remember.

No worries, my bad, I was likely a bit edgy yesterday my damn sinuses were acting up.
Sorry about that

Back then Mr. Kim tended to separate the class between sport and non-sport but you could train in both if you liked, I did both briefly and then chose to train in the non-sport side. I did not realize things were different then from another TKD school. However in retrospect I should have been, After Mr. Kim closed his Worcester school I went looking for another TKD school locally and there was not one that appeared to be doing anything like he did. A few years later I went to his Boston school and things felt right again but then I moved to NYS and that was the last I trained with Mr. Kim and that was over 20 years ago