Sport vs. Street

[FriedRice]

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[FriedRice]

And as I figured, agreed here again. The more you do a thing, the mo betta ya get at it. However, you can't just leap from that to the premise of your O/P, as it sidesteps the issue of the street Not being "the same" as sport training. Skills may cross genere, sure, but the environment and lack of rule can change things a lot.

Some people just have OCD and keeps talking to me about this "TKD kick", and I'm trying to help them out. Maybe I have OCD too. But I think you're right as I'm helping that pic of the burning dumpster, burn more, haha. I'll just put him on ignore.

 

[FriedRice]

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[FriedRice]

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[FriedRice]

You aren't listening at all, are you?

No, you aren't listening at all. But I think Ima put you on ignore. Nothing personal. Just that your OCD beats my OCD and I'm helping to fuel that picture of the burning dumpster, lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I bet that their awareness is of getting suckeredpunch is way above my level.

I would be surprised if it wasn't.

Something tells me that they know this also but elect to go 1-1 because it's too much of a risk doing what you suggest. The fight that I posted on post #1, only lasted 44 seconds? And this was 1-1 X 5. Once you lose a teammate through KO or even tapout, it's game over when the extra guy gangs up on 2-1. It seems too easy to KO your 1 guy, 2-1. They're not going to be dummies and let your 1 guy hang back and sneak up on them easily. By then, your 1 on 2, is probably KO'ed and now that 1 that hung back, is dealing vs. 2.

I've seen this happen only once. And the guy on "Team A" that stayed behind was kept in check by the other guy on "Team B
who made sure that the Team A guy couldn't double team anyone from Team B. I think it would have worked if the guy wasn't too skiddish. I'll have to find the video.

 

[FriedRice]

I would be surprised if it wasn't.
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Was that a low blow? Ha. But that was my point, your tactic is way too risky. It could work, but I see going 1-1 until it filters down is the way to go. It only takes 1 person getting KO'ed and the fight shifts ridiculously towards the team with 1 more fighter.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No, you aren't listening at all. But I think Ima put you on ignore. Nothing personal. Just that your OCD beats my OCD and I'm helping to fuel that picture of the burning dumpster, lol.

Sweet. That will help.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

With training and sparring vs. these Krav Cats, my skills have increased quite significantly....and I don't spar that much with them. Now imagine these guys, who specifically train for this as their freakin', organized sport. I bet that their awareness is of getting suckeredpunch is way above my level.

So would not this "awareness" be able to help change the outcome of a combative encounter outside of the ring?
And, since professionals use have some form of impact training, wouldn't that help keep them from getting Ko'ed.

 

[jobo]

So would not this "awareness" be able to help change the outcome of a combative encounter outside of the ring?
And, since professionals use have some form of impact training, wouldn't that help keep them from getting Ko'ed.

getting hit in the head a lot, gives you long term brain damage. I dont believe that this conditions your brain to not be knocked out if someone hits you very hard

 

[Kong Soo Do]

These seems to be Amateur level, MMA fighters to maybe semi-pros who all, probably has no chance to ever make it in even the lowest card of the UFC. Not even Bellator.

Now pick 5 of your best students from your self defense class or TMA, of similar sizes. Who would win?

Well, as one of the SD guys on the board...

Your premise is flawed from the OP. I watched your video and noticed that everyone was wearing gloves, mouth piece and I assume a cup. They don't wear those things in a street fight. I also noticed several referees. They don't have them in a street fight either. And what were the referees doing anyway? Enforcing rules and making sure nobody really got hurt (like in a street fight with no referees). A also noticed that they were 'fighting' on a nice soft, level, dry mat that was well lit. I've not seen that in a street fight either.

I couldn't help but notice that no one pulled an edged weapon. They have those in many street fights. I didn't see any firearms, sticks or improvised weapons. They have those in many street fights as well.

So this is another attempt to make a MMA sport the equal of street self defense. And like every other attempt, it failed. Take those guys and nix all the safety gear, the soft mat (they'll be on asphalt), the referees, the rules and give one of them a can of O.C., other a firearm, a couple have knives and/or sticks and let the others use improvised weapons (anything available in the parking lot between the parked cars that is available) and then we'll see what REALLY happens in the streets.

You see, SD people don't depend on rules, time outs, tap outs, water breaks, corner advice and medical attention that is waiting just outside the ring.

This is just another stupid thread that tries to put a square peg in a round hole.

 

[jobo]

Well, as one of the SD guys on the board...

Your premise is flawed from the OP. I watched your video and noticed that everyone was wearing gloves, mouth piece and I assume a cup. They don't wear those things in a street fight. I also noticed several referees. They don't have them in a street fight either. And what were the referees doing anyway? Enforcing rules and making sure nobody really got hurt (like in a street fight with no referees). A also noticed that they were 'fighting' on a nice soft, level, dry mat that was well lit. I've not seen that in a street fight either.

I couldn't help but notice that no one pulled an edged weapon. They have those in many street fights. I didn't see any firearms, sticks or improvised weapons. They have those in many street fights as well.

So this is another attempt to make a MMA sport the equal of street self defense. And like every other attempt, it failed. Take those guys and nix all the safety gear, the soft mat (they'll be on asphalt), the referees, the rules and give one of them a can of O.C., other a firearm, a couple have knives and/or sticks and let the others use improvised weapons (anything available in the parking lot between the parked cars that is available) and then we'll see what REALLY happens in the streets.

You see, SD people don't depend on rules, time outs, tap outs, water breaks, corner advice and medical attention that is waiting just outside the ring.

This is just another stupid thread that tries to put a square peg in a round hole.

I see the whole street / ring/dojo argument. Some what differently than most. Maybe id see it differently if guns were freely available in my country. There seems to be a bogeyman street fighter than has great skill/ strength and is utterly ruthlessly. These people possibly exist but they make up a very small % of the population, so small that its pointless worrying about them, like being hit by lightning perhaps. Not only have you got to meet them, you have to annoy them to the point of wanting to badly hurt you. Where as they are probably busy being an enforcer for the local loan shark or some such.
the reality is most people can't fight, even those that do a lot. They have the same skills they learn at 8 ,slightly refined perhaps. But not at all based on in depth body mechanics and most important people arnt very fit. In fact most arnt fit at all, based on the info someone posted on fitness standards in the states
if you combine these factors you come to the conclusion that having both developed skills and good fitness, puts you in quite a small % of the population and you might be someone else's bogey man. The fact there are no rules is to your advantage as you can finally try out that killer throat punch you have been practising.

uneven surfaces favour people with the best balance and that should be you and improvised weapons are available to all. However if you are seriously out numbered you have most probably lost and that is just a fact of life

 

[Kong Soo Do]

There seems to be a bogeyman street fighter than has great skill/ strength and is utterly ruthlessly.

Perhaps bogeyman would be an appropriate term. I'm referring to criminals. Many of which are trained by other criminals in the prison system. As a LEO and instructor I see this on a regular basis i.e. videos of felons training other felons in unarmed attacking methods as well as with weapons (improvised edged weapons are the majority). On the street they may indeed have some skills as MMA is in the prison systems as well as methods to defeat such training. Additionally, and more importantly, they may be on drugs such as K2, spice or coke which enhances their strength while reducing the amount of pain they feel. Pray you never encounter someone on spice looking for their next fix and is desperate enough to not care who they have to hurt to get it.

These people possibly exist but they make up a very small % of the population, so small that its pointless worrying about them, like being hit by lightning perhaps.

I don't know where you live but it likely isn't the small % you're putting forth. And the serious martial artist that trains for SD knows that you train for the worst and hope for the best. If you don't train for a serious situation then you'll be behind the 8-ball both in experience, skill and mindset should you find yourself in said situation.

The facts, which I've stated before multiple times is that MMA is a sport and not to be confused with SD. There is cross-over but it is minimal because the training methodology is entirely different. Two different methodologies, two different mindsets and two different goals. It's apple and oranges.

 

[FriedRice]

Well, as one of the SD guys on the board...

Your premise is flawed from the OP. I watched your video and noticed that everyone was wearing gloves, mouth piece and I assume a cup. They don't wear those things in a street fight. I also noticed several referees. They don't have them in a street fight either. And what were the referees doing anyway? Enforcing rules and making sure nobody really got hurt (like in a street fight with no referees). A also noticed that they were 'fighting' on a nice soft, level, dry mat that was well lit. I've not seen that in a street fight either.

If you want to talk about flaws, let's talk about how you PRETEND FIGHT with your SD training. You tap each other. You pretend to poke at your partners' eyes. You pretend to punch at the throat...maybe a tap. Do you use real, sharp knives or rubber and aluminum ones? You choreograph your training. You force one guy to stab with a rubber knife in one manner in order to do your choreographed moves. How is this realistic? Would you allow me to stab and slash whatever way that I want with that rubber knife? I bet I can hurt someone really bad with one and I'm not even going to go for the eye balls. This wouldn't even be close to realism b/c it's still a rubber knife. But way more realistic than what you currently do.

How hard do you hit each other in sparring? When it's time for hard sparring, I'm trying to KO my partner and vice versa...do you?

I couldn't help but notice that no one pulled an edged weapon. They have those in many street fights. I didn't see any firearms, sticks or improvised weapons. They have those in many street fights as well.

Yea but you pull out fake knives and rubber guns. Nobody really gets shot or stabbed with real knives in your SD classes though. And if you even train with sticks, you don't hit at full force against unprotected heads, if at all.

Do you even dare go up to this power level of sparring, here? (and it's not even close to reality yet, but way closer than what you do though).

So this is another attempt to make a MMA sport the equal of street self defense. And like every other attempt, it failed. Take those guys and nix all the safety gear, the soft mat (they'll be on asphalt), the referees, the rules and give one of them a can of O.C., other a firearm, a couple have knives and/or sticks and let the others use improvised weapons (anything available in the parking lot between the parked cars that is available) and then we'll see what REALLY happens in the streets.

MMA is much more superior than the average SD training. SD training in general is the softest. Why do you think that it's usually women and older people that populates such classes while rarely would you see someone over 40 in full MMA training with hard sparring for KO's? It's mostly the alpha males under 25, and about 5% women; in MMA classes. Coincidence?

You don't train full power on the asphalt. Half of your class would blow their hips if they get Hane Goshi thrown at full force into the asphalt. I bet most of them don't even know how to break-fall.

And you complain about Referees, yet every time I go spar in SD and TMA gyms, the instructors watch me like I'm some kind of a terrorist and constantly yells out my name and says to lower the power. This is not reffing? I thought guys were all about realism? And I wasn't even going 50% power....with dudes wearing those ridiculous headgear with the full face masks, looking like a motorcycle helmet.

You see, SD people don't depend on rules, time outs, tap outs, water breaks, corner advice and medical attention that is waiting just outside the ring.

Yea, you depend on tap fighting and keeping the power level, way under 70%.

This is just another stupid thread that tries to put a square peg in a round hole.

Says the Tap Fighter.

 

[jobo]

Perhaps bogeyman would be an appropriate term. I'm referring to criminals. Many of which are trained by other criminals in the prison system. As a LEO and instructor I see this on a regular basis i.e. videos of felons training other felons in unarmed attacking methods as well as with weapons (improvised edged weapons are the majority). On the street they may indeed have some skills as MMA is in the prison systems as well as methods to defeat such training. Additionally, and more importantly, they may be on drugs such as K2, spice or coke which enhances their strength while reducing the amount of pain they feel. Pray you never encounter someone on spice looking for their next fix and is desperate enough to not care who they have to hurt to get it.



I don't know where you live but it likely isn't the small % you're putting forth. And the serious martial artist that trains for SD knows that you train for the worst and hope for the best. If you don't train for a serious situation then you'll be behind the 8-ball both in experience, skill and mindset should you find yourself in said situation.

The facts, which I've stated before multiple times is that MMA is a sport and not to be confused with SD. There is cross-over but it is minimal because the training methodology is entirely different. Two different methodologies, two different mindsets and two different goals. It's apple and oranges.

quite rough industrial city in England, ex cons are on every corner, few of them can fight properly

 

[jobo]

Perhaps bogeyman would be an appropriate term. I'm referring to criminals. Many of which are trained by other criminals in the prison system. As a LEO and instructor I see this on a regular basis i.e. videos of felons training other felons in unarmed attacking methods as well as with weapons (improvised edged weapons are the majority). On the street they may indeed have some skills as MMA is in the prison systems as well as methods to defeat such training. Additionally, and more importantly, they may be on drugs such as K2, spice or coke which enhances their strength while reducing the amount of pain they feel. Pray you never encounter someone on spice looking for their next fix and is desperate enough to not care who they have to hurt to get it.



I don't know where you live but it likely isn't the small % you're putting forth. And the serious martial artist that trains for SD knows that you train for the worst and hope for the best. If you don't train for a serious situation then you'll be behind the 8-ball both in experience, skill and mindset should you find yourself in said situation.

The facts, which I've stated before multiple times is that MMA is a sport and not to be confused with SD. There is cross-over but it is minimal because the training methodology is entirely different. Two different methodologies, two different mindsets and two different goals. It's apple and oranges.

this a reverse of the debate I had on another thread, where folk were insisting they didn't need fitness to defend them selves.
if other cons are teaching fighting skill better than your instructor then you need to employ one to teach you and sack your guy
people trying to rob you is a different mind set than a general fall out, if they look like they can handle themselves give them the money and walk away

 

[FriedRice]

you come to the conclusion that having both developed skills and good fitness, puts you in quite a small % of the population and you might be someone else's bogey man. The fact there are no rules is to your advantage as you can finally try out that killer throat punch you have been practising.

uneven surfaces favour people with the best balance and that should be you and improvised weapons are available to all. However if you are seriously out numbered you have most probably lost and that is just a fact of life

Very true. When I train my jab with Boxing or MMA gloves, I'm also training eye striking....it's the same mechanics....b/c in the street, I just extend my fingers out. I also include finger push ups in my classes to strengthen the fingers for this purpose. The step jab is my main weapon in the ring. I throw around 30-40 jabs per round of sparring. All I need is my jab to beat the average person my size who has 0 training to maybe intermediate level training in whatever....and they can do whatever they want, including kicking me in the nuts at full power. This has been tested many times vs. mostly L3 and up Krav people, and I respect the Krav'ers the most in the SD realm. So in the street, who's going to more powerful, more precise and much faster at going for them eyeballs? And once they're blinded, I can do whatever I want to them.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

If you want to talk about flaws, let's talk about how you PRETEND FIGHT with your SD training. You tap each other. You pretend to poke at your partners' eyes. You pretend to punch at the throat...maybe a tap. Do you use real, sharp knives or rubber and aluminum ones? You choreograph your training. You force one guy to stab with a rubber knife in one manner in order to do your choreographed moves. How is this realistic? Would you allow me to stab and slash whatever way that I want with that rubber knife? I bet I can hurt someone really bad with one and I'm not even going to go for the eye balls. This wouldn't even be close to realism b/c it's still a rubber knife. But way more realistic than what you currently do.

How hard do you hit each other in sparring? When it's time for hard sparring, I'm trying to KO my partner and vice versa...do you?



Yea but you pull out fake knives and rubber guns. Nobody really gets shot or stabbed with real knives in your SD classes though. And if you even train with sticks, you don't hit at full force against unprotected heads, if at all.

Do you even dare go to this level here?

MMA is much more superior than the average SD training. SD training in general is the softest. Why do you think that it's usually women and older people that populates such classes while rarely would you see someone over 40 in full MMA training with hard sparring for KO's? It's mostly the alpha males under 25, and about 5% women; in MMA classes. Coincidence?

You don't train full power on the asphalt. Half of your class would blow their hips if they get Hane Goshi thrown at full force into the asphalt. I bet most of them don't even know how to break-fall.

And you complain about Referees, yet every time I go spar in SD and TMA gyms, the instructors watch me like I'm some kind of a terrorist and constantly yells out my name and says to lower the power. This is not reffing? I thought guys were all about realism? And I wasn't even going 50% power....with dudes wearing those ridiculous headgear with the full face masks, looking like a motorcycle helmet.



Yea, you depend on tap fighting and keeping the power level, way under 70%.



This is just another stupid thread that tries to put a square peg in a round hole.

[/QUOTE]

This seems like this type of thinking is towards all MASD's. Plus, these ARE two different environments (street and Studio). One is the training and developing, and the other is an adrenalin/fear cocktail induced action. To say that stuff has no actual effect on a street fight based on this idea, makes it seem not completely thought out. Training for SD, you first have to know what you are doing, or you have just as much skill as an average guy off of the streets.

Also (sorry a little off topic) the saying "like apples and oranges" to describe things as different is a little misleading. They are different but they are still fruits.

 

[jobo]

Very true. When I train my jab with Boxing or MMA gloves, I'm also training eye striking....it's the same mechanics....b/c in the street, I just extend my fingers out. I also include finger push ups in my classes to strengthen the fingers for this purpose. The step jab is my main weapon in the ring. I throw around 30-40 jabs per round of sparring. All I need is my jab to beat the average person my size who has 0 training to maybe intermediate level training in whatever....and they can do whatever they want, including kicking me in the nuts at full power. This has been tested many times vs. mostly L3 and up Krav people, and I respect the Krav'ers the most in the SD realm. So in the street, who's going to more powerful, more precise and much faster at going for them eyeballs? And once they're blinded, I can do whatever I want to them.

you are both impressive and scary. Finger push up to better poke eyes. Got to add that to my training

 

[Steve]

I think there's an inherent disconnect when cops confuse what they do and the realities they encounter as a part of their jobs, with self defense.

Can the experience that a LEO has inform civilian self defense? Of course. Is it the same? No.

Self defense is contextual. One size doesn't fit all. It's like a single person driving a passenger van to work every day "just in case" they need to take 9 people from point A to point B. Is it possible that this could happen? Well, maybe... but it's highly unlikely. Unless the context changes. Maybe that person is an Uber driver. And if he is, fine. But most people aren't.

Women on a college campus absolutely should learn some self defense. But that self defense isn't going to be cop self defense. It's a different context. And if you live in a dangerous part of town, sure. Self defense might be very appropriate. But that self defense isn't the same as for a college coed or a cop. It's different.