Sport And TMA....Again

[ballen0351]

Himura, you mentioned that the defeated opponents tried to fight gracies way. My question is, what if a art is a close range standing grappling heavy art like Hapkido or budo taijutsu(at least from what I have done so far it seams that way)? Arts like that, in their strongest area are in the gracies as well. It could be argued though that the hapkidoan could just stay at range and kick him and keep back peddling but, then that wouldn't be Hapkido that would be TKD. Edit to add. I mentioned Hapkido because in one Gracie challenge video the poor guy tries 3 times and it just gets worse and worse. He even tries to grab Roylers jewels during one exchange and still didn't work.

So what is your opinion on that. What if your art, is at its strongest, up close and that is exactly were the gracies wanted it??

What about it? Because a Gracie beat some random Hapkido dude it means BJJ is better then Hapkido? Or does it mean that Gracie is better then that Hapkido guy.

 

[Cyriacus]

Can you clarify that. Im dense and trying to figure out what your exactly saying in your second paragraph?

Being ambushed takes away alot of your options and doesnt give you a chance to do your thing. I misread ballen as saying sucker punch when he literally meant lucky punch. Thats my bad.
So from the ground after being put down, certain skills become more useful in that situation.

You don't need to sucker punch someone to get a lucky punch. They happen all the time in the UFC the crazy knock out that shouldn't have happened but did. Does that mean that guy was better or does it mean he got lucky. Was Matt Serra a better fighter then GSP or on that night at that time did he win? That's the point of these videos all it proved was one guy beat the other at that time. Were the Gracie's better? Yes I'm sure they are because they were the top of their field hell they practically invented their field.

Im inclined to concur, when you put it that way.

 

[Kframe]

What about it? Because a Gracie beat some random Hapkido dude it means BJJ is better then Hapkido? Or does it mean that Gracie is better then that Hapkido guy.

That contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion nor to my valid question. Some arts, are in their zone at ranges which is exactly where GJJ shines.. How do those arts deal. It is easier for a grappler to force his way to the ground then it is a stand up fighter to stay on his feet. So my question in my previous post still stands.

 

[Takai]

So, what are your thoughts? Do people in the arts need preset techs. to use as a base, to defned against the things I mentioned above, or is just pure fighting skill, such as we'd see in the ring, good enough?

The thread seems to be drifting again.

 

[ballen0351]

That contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion nor to my valid question. Some arts, are in their zone at ranges which is exactly where GJJ shines.. How do those arts deal. It is easier for a grappler to force his way to the ground then it is a stand up fighter to stay on his feet. So my question in my previous post still stands.

Again what about it? My art is a inside stand up art. So what? It becomes your strong suit against mine and the best man wins. It means nothing about the style being better. If I win does it mean Goju is better then BJJ or does it mean I was better then my opponent at that time. If I loose does it mean Bjj is better then Goju or again that guy was able to beat me.

 

[K-man]

I assume "sport" may mean "cross training" and TMA may mean to "keep system pure" (it may not mean "cross training"). I also assume that we are not talking about sport such as boxing, wrestling, Judo, ... here. So the discussion of "sport" vs. "TMA" is really to discuss whether or not the "cross training" is necessary, or whether or not TMA is against "cross training".

There are many competitions within martial arts that don't need cross training, dependent on the rules. For example, if you are Kyokushin and want to compete in their championships you don't need to cross train at all. Same for TKD and a lot of others. Certainly if you want to fight MMA cross training is mandatory.

Here is a question. When your opponent tries to punch you, will you

1. block his punch?

Never, unless taken by surprise.

2. dodge his punch?

Sometimes, but always moving in as the punch goes past.

3. wrap his punching arms to obtain "clinch"?

Almost never.

4. enter to control and generally strike or take down (but the control is rarely a clinch)

Probably this over 90% of the time.


If you apply the 1st and the 2nd strategies, your opponent will punch you again.

Not with number 2 if done properly.

If you apply the 3rd strategy, what will you do after you have obtained a "clinch"? In order to continue after "clinch", you have to be good in grappling. If "cross training" is a must then "sport testing" is also a must. When you take this approach, I truly don't see any difference between "sport" and "TMA".

My idea of grappling is to control your opponent without your opponent controlling you. Cross training has absolutely no requirement for 'sport testing'. If you can't see the difference between sport and TMA, you haven't been paying attention. Hanzou's big gripe was that TMAs don't fight in competition.

We all know that it's better to use

- striking to against a grappler.
- grappling to against a striker.

Do we? In a sporting context maybe.

If you want to have both abilities, your will need to "cross train" and you will need to test your integration of striking and grappling in "sport".

If you want to compete in sport and you want to have both abilities you may need to cross train. In reality now with the proliferation of places advertising MMA I would assume they cover all aspects of MMA competition. I know they do here.

If you don't want to compete in sport there is absolutely no need to cross train. Whether a TMA teaches all aspects of fighting or not it depends on your reason for training and whether you feel the need to cross train or not will depend on the training provided.

In my training which is truly a TMA I don't feel the need to go off and study BJJ. I haven't been in a real fight on the ground in the past fifty years. Why should I need to learn extra ground grappling skills now?
:asian:

 

[K-man]

Why RTKDCMB? A nice cross section of martial arts, including TKD was shown and they got defeated. It seams every time this type of video is posted, the same comment gets thrown out. "Oh he was not a good xxxx practitioner." The comments are always vague saying they lacked basic fundamentals. These comments crop up every single time. IF there are so many Great TMA out there, why are they not being represented? Why haven't they accepted the challenge and proven them selves and there art legit?

Whatever you find on Youtube is an example, not proof.

I keep hearing about all these fantastic TMA that wouldn't fall prey, yet they never appear.

I have posted heaps of stuff.

I honestly don't care what anyone learns, they need to do more then a few minutes of ground grappling every week so they don't spaz out when they inevitably get taken down.

As I said in my previous post, I haven't needed to go to the ground in the past 50 years. Why, all of a sudden, do I need fantastic BJJ grappling skills?
:asian:

 

[K-man]

Himura. My point is, that you need to train the high percentage maneuvers more often because they are the ones that set up the Illegal for competition low percentage maneuvers.

See below. I totally disagree.

It is easier to perform that face rake(I assume that's what your talking about) if you can deal with this strikes and distract him with your own. One thing I don't understand about my new art of budo taijutsu is the lack of separating the striking and striking defense and getting lots of reps on them. So far I have seen no use of strike shields and focus mits. The striking and striking defense aspect is IMHO so very important to setting up everything else.

Maybe they take a different view.

I whole heartedly agree with you regarding TMA and ground. I would expand what your saying with this. There needs to be a focus on the main positions. Guard/mount both bottom and top/ half guard and side guard. I think that tma that want to do something on the ground besides spaz out need to put in many repititons on escaping each of those situations. I would also put attention in to the escape bottom of mount with punch defense.

TMAs are no more likely to 'spaz' out than anyone else. I just don't want to stay on the ground for any reason.

Another thing, that I notice is, that many tma that fall prey to when they get taken down by a grappler is they end up on top, in guard then get pulled down, into the bottom guys armpits and then guillotined. They need to learn to avoid that, and learn basic submission defense from each position. Grapplers are more vulnerable when they are going for a submission. I think that, if they focus on those basic things, and actually put in a lot of time practicing it, more then a few minutes a week they would be ok.

I don't want to submit anybody. If someone has provided me the reason to fight, and I consider that reasonably unlikely, then they won't be submitting.

They don't need 600+ techniques, but they do need to put in quality time on a the things I outlined above and they will do just fine. I just feel they don't do enough time dedicated to it. Heck bring in a BJJ guy and let your guys go to town on him. They will learn a lot.

This thread is about 'Sport and TMA'. You understand sport but have obviously no idea of TMA.

So you are saying that the 'illegal for sport' techniques are low percentage. Let's check it out;

Butting with the head .. Go to technique in Krav Maga and present in Goju kata as a head butt to the rear.


Biting or spitting at an opponent ... Valid technique to escape some chokes, taught in Krav


Hair pulling .. Once again in both Krav instruction and Goju kata


Fish-hooking ... in both Krav instruction and Goju kata


Intentionally placing a finger into any orifice, or into any cut or laceration of your opponent .. Fair game in SD


Eye gouging of any kind ... Very much a go to technique in Krav and Goju. (and a great entry for an elbow strike)


Groin attacks of any kind ... Always a target in RBSD and also in Goju kata


Downward pointing of elbow strikes (see Elbow strike) ... One of my top techniques. Once again taught in both Krav and Goju.


Small joint manipulation ... Always an option. Taught in Krav to escape chokes and big part of our Tegumi in Goju.


Strikes to the spine or back of the head (see Rabbit punch) Huge part of both Krav and Goju especially with the pointed elbow. Also GB 20 on the back go the head a primary target in Goju


Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea ... Absolutely number one target for both Krav and Goju.


Clawing, pinching, twisting the flesh or grabbing the clavicle ... Always an option.


Kicking the head of a grounded opponent ... Legitimate target in both and finishing technique regularly taught in Goju.


Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent ... Absolutely a target if I'm being pulled down.


Stomping of a grounded fighter ... Every time, not even an option not too.


Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his or her head or neck (see Piledriver) .. Given the option, not a worry

I would say most of these are not only high percentage but a major part of TMAs and RBSD.
:asian:

 

[Kframe]

So you are saying that the 'illegal for sport' techniques are low percentage. Let's check it out;

I would say most of these are not only high percentage but a major part of TMAs and RBSD.
:asian:

All of which were legal in UFC 1-6 and none of which worked.. Case in point. The HKD guy in the challenge videos, he kept trying to sack grab, and guess what, didn't work.. Plenty of hair pulling, fish hooking and other crap on the list in UFC 1-6 NONE OF THEM WORKED.

I don't know how you think I said you needed to submit someone on the ground. I was mainly talking about learning and being comfortable in those main positions as if you get taken down in a real fight, your going to end up in one or more of those. Learning how to stop a submission attempt(Which can be a joint break, I don't have to sub you. I can break you.) is easy. Being able to get out of that situation, in those common places to get trapped in is paramount. As to the spazzing out part. Unless your comfortable actually fighting on the ground, most people spaz the first few times. I know I did coming from boxing, as did the TKD black belt that I pwnt in mma rules sparring..(Which felt so good when it happened. I was so proud) Again there are plenty of videos of people spazzing.

Now defining spazzing is important. First few times I did roll, I spent great quantities of energy trying anything, to get out of bottom. I ended up spent in less then a minute thanks to doing nothing effective. One guy said I looked like Squidward. (some guy from spongebob). Part of my comment on not spazzing is realizing the need to stay calm and as Rener is fond of saying, don't resist what is. If the guy on top is in full mount control mode(as opposed to attacking) just chill and rest. He is most vulnerable when he is attacking. Problem is, newbs to ground wont realize that if they have little to no exposure to it. That is my definition of spazzing.

My only 2 fights that I have ever had, I lost, because of my lack of ground grappling skills and spazzing.. You don't need the entire GJJ black belt syllabus, but you should be comfortable and have actual useable techniques to escape mount(bottom and top)/sidemount(bottom and top) and half guard and guard while knowing how to stop the basic submissions. Being comfortable on the ground is usefull. Spazzing is not, which is what will happen if you have no experience there.

 

[Kframe]

Kman at no point am I advocating you stay on the ground. If you want to escape to your feet, you need to beable to escape those positions and defend any subs that may happen from them.. If you cant, then you wont get back to your feet. Its as simple as that. My experience rolling tells me this..

Just to add . BY you I mean a generic you. not you k man.

 

[ballen0351]

All of which were legal in UFC 1-6 and none of which worked.. Case in point. The HKD guy in the challenge videos, he kept trying to sack grab, and guess what, didn't work.. Plenty of hair pulling, fish hooking and other crap on the list in UFC 1-6 NONE OF THEM WORKED.

you do realize the Gracies were not undefeated right? you seem to have put them on some pedestal. They were good fighters and even better salesmen

My only 2 fights that I have ever had, I lost, because of my lack of ground grappling skills and spazzing.. You don't need the entire GJJ black belt syllabus, but you should be comfortable and have actual useable techniques to escape mount(bottom and top)/sidemount(bottom and top) and half guard and guard while knowing how to stop the basic submissions. Being comfortable on the ground is usefull. Spazzing is not, which is what will happen if you have no experience there.

You dont need any GJJ for that there are plenty of other systems that have defenses and techniqes in them that dont involve Gjj. Gjj is good but its not the only game in town

 

[Kframe]

Alright. Im respectfully bowing out of this one. I have tapped out all my knowledge trying to convince people that having some basic skills on the ground that regularly practice is nothing but helpful. Im done being talked to like a dang fool. I just pray to god no one here has to find out the hard way how hard it is to escape from bottom with punch's raining in.

IMHO being comfortable on the ground benefits the standup part of your skillset. It gives you the courage to close the gap and actually try some techs that you may be hesitant to try. Knowing that if get taken down, you have defineable skills you can use to get back up.

So. Im done with this. I don't want to keep arguing with people I respect and like and consider online friends.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You seriously don't believe that people's limbs get broken in Bjj competitions?

My wife refused to tape out in ground game. She had to visit the EM afterward.

 

[Hanzou]

you do realize the Gracies were not undefeated right? you seem to have put them on some pedestal. They were good fighters and even better salesmen

That really wasn't Kframe's point. His point was that all those dirty tricks proved ineffective even in a sport environment. Vale Tudo for example allowed a lot of dirty fighting, and Gjj still did very well.

You dont need any GJJ for that there are plenty of other systems that have defenses and techniqes in them that dont involve Gjj. Gjj is good but its not the only game in town

In terms of ground fighting, it's the most comprehensive system around. I'd definitely recommend it for women's self defense because not only do they learn how to fight out of compromising positions, but they will more than likely spend the majority of their training sparring with larger guys on top of them trying to control them. Bjj is also one of the few arts that truly don't require a great deal of strength to be effective.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is there a reason you're making this personal? There's no need for that.

Agree! There is no need to link any general discussion to whether any individual can or cannot do. When people ask, "Can you do it?" if you say yes, people may say that you are bragging about yourself. If you say no, people may look down on you. It's a lose-lose situation when discussion has to involve "individual". The most honest answer may be, "It depends on who I'm dealing with."

One day my teacher said, "Everything that I have taught you, it won't work on me." I then asked, "If any technique that won't work on you then why did you teach me for?" He said, "Besides technique, there is ability. Since everybody's ability are on different levels, technique will work differently between different individuals".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Alright. Im respectfully bowing out of this one. I have tapped out all my knowledge trying to convince people that having some basic skills on the ground that regularly practice is nothing but helpful. Im done being talked to like a dang fool. I just pray to god no one here has to find out the hard way how hard it is to escape from bottom with punch's raining in.

IMHO being comfortable on the ground benefits the standup part of your skillset. It gives you the courage to close the gap and actually try some techs that you may be hesitant to try. Knowing that if get taken down, you have defineable skills you can use to get back up.

So. Im done with this. I don't want to keep arguing with people I respect and like and consider online friends.

I don't believe that you should convince those who has already made up their mind. For those who still has "open mind", what you had said "having some basic skills on the ground that regularly practice is nothing but helpful." can be helpful to them in the long run. If your information can just help one person in the forum, your effort will not be wasted. So don't feel discourage when someone doesn't agree with you. There are others who agree with you but may not say anything.

 

[ballen0351]

That really wasn't Kframe's point. His point was that all those dirty tricks proved ineffective even in a sport environment. Vale Tudo for example allowed a lot of dirty fighting, and Gjj still did very well.

in the sports world they might not work as well. In the criminal world I know they work Ive seen them work. This summer where I work a college girl prevented her own rape with fingernails to the groin of the attacker, she had NO martial arts training she just had natural instinct to attack the groin.
When people keep using this Gracie challenge as proof they seem to forget they did loose I mean Sakuraba got the nickname "the gracie hunter" for beating four of them. Like I said before all the challenge proved was on that day that guy beat the other guy.

In terms of ground fighting, it's the most comprehensive system around. I'd definitely recommend it for women's self defense because not only do they learn how to fight out of compromising positions, but they will more than likely spend the majority of their training sparring with larger guys on top of them trying to control them. Bjj is also one of the few arts that truly don't require a great deal of strength to be effective.

You cant use comprehensive and then quantify it with only ground fighting. That in itself means its not a comprehensive system. And a woman in any art with spend most of her time going up against bigger men thats pretty standard for all Arts.

 

[ballen0351]

IMHO being comfortable on the ground benefits the standup part of your skillset. It gives you the courage to close the gap and actually try some techs that you may be hesitant to try. Knowing that if get taken down, you have defineable skills you can use to get back up.

I dont disagree with you in theroy, I do disagree with you that only GJJ can do that for you. There are plenty of arts that work on that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My idea of grappling is to control your opponent without your opponent controlling you.

That's my definition as well. We totally agree on this 100%.

I'll only attack when I have

- 1 control over my opponent while my opponent has no control over me.
- 2 controls over my opponent while my opponent only has 1 control over me.

I'll never attack my opponent when he has 2 controls over me. When that happen, I'll give up my controls and tear apart my opponent's controls. Since the window can be very small, the attack has to happen soon without waiting.

Here is an example that you try to control your opponent but don't allow your opponent to control you in "jacket wrestling environment".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L52xVMl_ZQM&feature=youtu.be

This "arm wrapping" in no-jacket environment also fit into that definition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYuu84PJK80&feature=youtu.be

 

[RTKDCMB]

Here is a question. When your opponent tries to punch you, will you

1. block his punch?
2. dodge his punch?
3. wrap his punching arms to obtain "clinch"?

If you apply the 1st and the 2nd strategies, your opponent will punch you again.

Not if you dispatch him first.