Sport And TMA....Again

[ballen0351]

I'm willing to bet that if a boxer can knock out someone in the ring, they can knock someone out on the street.

Sure unless that person throws a kick to the knee of the boxer first and since a boxer doesn't train for that he buckles. No more knock out power.

 

[ballen0351]

Ohh...careful. Someone will mention the fights in Brazil. Seriously though, I know what you're talking about and I agree.

Which Gracie tweeted his attack on a drunk guy in NY that asked him for a smoke? I can't remember which one it was. But yeah they have tested it he bragged that he choked the guy out like 3 times in a row.

 

[Hanzou]

It makes no sense to you because you don't study that art. If someone doesn't study judo and watch people doing fitting drills they would think that looks silly they are just chest bumping.

I disagree. That systema video wasn't a drill, it was a demonstration of technique. Additionally, in fitting drills it's pretty clear that they're drilling to make throws more fluid. You can tell this even without being familiar with Judo.

Pulling a standing opponent down to the ground via a finger grab from sitting position is absolute nonsense, and shouldn't be taught as a viable self defense technique.

 

[MJS]

People also need to work on the fighting skills part on their own. If all you do is go to class once or twice a week and never experiment and try things in your own you will never get past the basics. Like when I practice Kata. I break down every movement in the kata and say OK what's the reason for this. What else could be done to react to this situation other then what's in the kata. For example of the Kata calls for step off line up block then step and punch. Could I step off line the other way and throw a knee or side kick. Usually the kata makes the most sense for the situation but its still fun and makes me think outside the box

Agreed. Last night in class, we were working some of the bunkai. As for the 'on your own' practice time, that is absolutely necessary if you want to improve.

 

[MJS]

Which Gracie tweeted his attack on a drunk guy in NY that asked him for a smoke? I can't remember which one it was. But yeah they have tested it he bragged that he choked the guy out like 3 times in a row.

I believe it was Renzo Gracie.

 

[MJS]

[insert "boxer breaks own hand" arguments and videos HERE]

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Happened to Tyson:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/15004/TYSON-BREAKS-RIGHT-HAND-IN-STREET-FIGHT.html?pg=all

"Tyson said he punched Green above the eye but damaged his own right hand in the process, causing a hairline fracture to the third metacarpal."

 

[SENC-33]

Yeah, that makes no sense. How in the world do you control the fingers of a standing opponent while sitting on the ground? Further, in both those videos, why don't you just stand up instead of trying to manipulate someone's fingers?



Honestly it's better to stand up than trying that nonsense I saw in the video.

YOU picked the video and a bad choice at that......You could probably find one worse if you look hard enough

 

[RTKDCMB]

Which Gracie tweeted his attack on a drunk guy in NY that asked him for a smoke? I can't remember which one it was. But yeah they have tested it he bragged that he choked the guy out like 3 times in a row.

It was Renzo and it was rather disgraceful how he did it.


http://www.mmamania.com/2012/9/7/3300137/renzo-gracie-muggers-twitter-ufc

 

[RTKDCMB]

Yeah, that makes no sense. How in the world do you control the fingers of a standing opponent while sitting on the ground? Further, in both those videos, why don't you just stand up instead of trying to manipulate someone's fingers?



Honestly it's better to stand up than trying that nonsense I saw in the video.

Because you do not always have the time or the position to stand up before getting kicked and that's why it is important to be able defend against kicks when you are on the ground.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I simply asked if the TMAs would be better if less time was spent on working kata and empty hand SD techs, and more time on the fighting aspect, such as we see with sport fighting. I mean, we don't see MMA fighters doing kata or working on knife defense, we see them working striking, hitting the pads, sparring, grappling, etc. I simply wanted to hear from the members, and what they thought.

They are just different methods and philosophies of training. I have seen an MMA video or two showing knife defences on the great and powerful YouTube. Since most MMA, as far as I am aware of, is geared towards competition in the ring or cage there is not as much need for weapons training or multiple attackers, unless they want to do it for the self defence aspects. As for Kata TMA's tend to think a little more long term so doing Kata allows them to refine their technique over time and learn how to move and work on their stances. I think the essential difference is that a self defence oriented TMA tend to operate on the principle that someone attacks, you defend, eliminate the threat quickly and move on. MMA and other sport oriented martial arts tend to operate on the principle that the fights are more continuous and drawn out, 5x5 minute rounds, wear down your opponent, go the distance, slowly improve your position and the like therefore Kata is not as useful to them.

 

[Hanzou]

Because you do not always have the time or the position to stand up before getting kicked and that's why it is important to be able defend against kicks when you are on the ground.

Except in that vid he wasn't defending, he was dodging the kicks while in seated posotion and sweeping the standing leg. He even did this with someone behind him.

You think that's realistic self defense?

 

[lklawson]

Happened to Tyson:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/15004/TYSON-BREAKS-RIGHT-HAND-IN-STREET-FIGHT.html?pg=all

"Tyson said he punched Green above the eye but damaged his own right hand in the process, causing a hairline fracture to the third metacarpal."

It was a prediction, not a dismissal of the argument. I just knew what was coming next. When you've seen the "TMA vs MMA/Sport-fighter" argument played out so many times, you start to know how it's going to unfold. Same with the "Grappling vs. Striking" thread over in the General MA Talk section. You know that eventually someone is going to claim the EMFG's are sovereign against chokes and arm-bars, that a striker will simply one-shot KO a grappler on a shoot, that "going to the ground" is suicidal because of all the rocks, broken glass, HIV infected needles and lava, and that if a grappler takes his opponent down the other guy's friends will start kicking him.

These arguments follow utterly predictable patterns. In this thread "boxers break their hands" was next on the road-map.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

If you can manage to create just enough space to strike on the ground (and you know how and where to strike) you wont be on the ground for long. If your opponent manages to get on top of you he had best not make a mistake or fall victim to assumptions that he can't be severely injured within a fraction of a second. Real life ground fighting brings forth a different adrenaline rush......Most TM artist aren't going to panic in these situations

This is so vague and circular that I got completely lost. If you know how to create enough space to disengage and stand, then it stands to reason that you would be able to stand. The real question is efficacy. You go back and forth, saying you never train ground fighting because you don't need it, and then you imply expertise at ground fighting. Regardless of how you train ground fighting, or what specific tactics you use, or how little regard you have for BJJ or whatever else, you either train ground fighting or you do not. If you do not, you are, I believe, ignoring a hole which could be exploited.

Regarding 'Most TM artists aren't going to panic," how did you come up with this? Is it just a gut feeling you have, or do you have some kind of objective support?

If we're speaking anecdotally, I can tell you... anecdotally... that nearly every single person who comes into a jiu jitsu school freaks out a little when they understand how much pressure and discomfort can be exerted from mount, side control or even half guard. Anecdotally, this reaction is nearly universal, regardless of one's background, in my experience.

I know that there are many martial artists from a diverse background who have trained at least somewhat in legitimate BJJ or Judo schools. Am I off base?

 

[K-man]

Wait, this stuff?

http://youtu.be/UU8Aex-7HV0
http://youtu.be/uRj1DgiitN8

Some of that is....strange.

Only strange to those that have no knowledge of it.

Yeah, that makes no sense. How in the world do you control the fingers of a standing opponent while sitting on the ground? Further, in both those videos, why don't you just stand up instead of trying to manipulate someone's fingers?

Have you ever trained Chi Na? Controlling with fingers is quite possible but of course illegal in MMA. As to why you don't just stand up, playing on the ground and experimenting with how bodies move is part of the training.

Honestly it's better to stand up than trying that nonsense I saw in the video.

That's right. Bash another style! It's only nonsense if you are ignorant as to what it is teaching.

I disagree. That systema video wasn't a drill, it was a demonstration of technique. Additionally, in fitting drills it's pretty clear that they're drilling to make throws more fluid. You can tell this even without being familiar with Judo.

It was actually neither a drill nor a technique. A drill is prearranged. A technique is something that can be drilled.

Pulling a standing opponent down to the ground via a finger grab from sitting position is absolute nonsense, and shouldn't be taught as a viable self defense technique.

Once again, you are demonstrating your ignorance of the training methods of Systema. It is not nonsense to experiment with the way the body reacts. Training finger grabs is quite interesting, but of course you would have no experience with that type of training.

Give it a break. Systema is neither TMA or Sport. Perhaps stick to something you can comprehend rather than getting out of your depth again.

 

[Hanzou]

YOU picked the video and a bad choice at that......You could probably find one worse if you look hard enough

I'd be interested on your opinion of this vid;

Do you think the ground fighting portion could be classified as realistic self defense?

 

[Hanzou]

Only strange to those that have no knowledge of it.

I've been in Bjj for a number of years, and in various martial arts for many more years than that. I find it hard to believe that there will ever be a SD scenario where a person will be dangling their fingers in front of your face for you to grab while sitting down. Additionally, I seriously doubt you can get the leverage necessary to cause a person to fall flat on the ground from your pulling on said fingers.

Then there's the dodging feet while sitting down. Why not simply block the foot, grab it and then go for the sweep? The dodging aspect is ridiculously unrealistic because it implies that you're fast enough to dodge a kick while sitting on your butt, and that the person is going to throw a certain type of kick at you while you're rolling around on the ground.

I'm pointing this out because these videos are from a system that is supposed to be self-defense based. The standard "you don't understand (insert MA here)" excuse simply doesn't work. I understand completely what they're doing in this vid. My question is why would you waste class time doing this when there's a very high chance that its just not going to work?

Frankly, this stuff isn't something I would be comfortable in recommending to someone who is looking to defend themselves.

 

[K-man]

Wait, this stuff?

http://youtu.be/UU8Aex-7HV0
http://youtu.be/uRj1DgiitN8

Some of that is....strange.

Yeah, that makes no sense. How in the world do you control the fingers of a standing opponent while sitting on the ground? Further, in both those videos, why don't you just stand up instead of trying to manipulate someone's fingers?

The object of the exercise isn't to say "try to grab someone's fingers and do this". It is demonstrating practically technique from Chi Na that you don't understand. It is excusable not to know something and question but it is not excusable to post crap as fact to bag another style.

Honestly it's better to stand up than trying that nonsense I saw in the video.

I've been in Bjj for a number of years, and in various martial arts for many more years than that. I find it hard to believe that there will ever be a SD scenario where a person will be dangling their fingers in front of your face for you to grab while sitting down. Additionally, I seriously doubt you can get the leverage necessary to cause a person to fall flat on the ground from your pulling on said fingers.

You admitted earlier you had bugger all knowledge of other MA.

Then there's the dodging feet while sitting down. Why not simply block the foot, grab it and then go for the sweep? The dodging aspect is ridiculously unrealistic because it implies that you're fast enough to dodge a kick while sitting on your butt, and that the person is going to throw a certain type of kick at you while you're rolling around on the ground.

Because that wasn't the object of that exercise.

I'm pointing this out because these videos are from a system that is supposed to be self-defense based. The standard "you don't understand (insert MA here)" excuse simply doesn't work. I understand completely what they're doing in this vid. My question is why would you waste class time doing this when there's a very high chance that its just not going to work?

It's not a waste of time. It is an exercise that helps develop the principles on which Systema is based.

Frankly, this stuff isn't something I would be comfortable in recommending to someone who is looking to defend themselves.

Exactly, because you are only interested in one art an cannot see the benefit of any other. I'd call it a closed mind.

 

[SENC-33]

I'd be interested on your opinion of this vid;

Do you think the ground fighting portion could be classified as realistic self defense?

It's a 2 minute video clip.....nothing really to comment on

 

[Hanzou]

This exchange is a good example of why competition is important. I have no way to guage the effectiveness of that finger grab or kick dodge from sitting position unless that person is in a SD situation.

However, we know that crazy stuff like the Tornado Clock choke, Scorpion crunch, and the Crucifix works against resisting opponents because of competition.

 

[SENC-33]

This exchange is a good example of why competition is important. I have no way to guage the effectiveness of that finger grab or kick dodge from sitting position unless that person is in a SD situation.

However, we know that crazy stuff like the Tornado Clock choke, Scorpion crunch, and the Crucifix works against resisting opponents because of competition.