Split from Christianity and Self-Defense article topic

[dbell]

Er you didn't read those nasty attacks on me either? You know the really nasty ones where I was threatened, abused and if he could have he would have spat on my dead body? You missed them? You missed where he was banned for it?
Oh my slight personal attack was nothing, believe me.

Is any personal attack slight or nothing? Especially one of faith such as you?

Yes, I read and saw those attacks, and had he not been banned before I could reply to him I would have asked him about them as well.

We have Jewish organisations that will go among other Jews to help bring Torah knowledge to them but they don't go out looking for non Jews to convert. Personally I find converts a pain, I did know one many years ago, she tried to be more Jewish than we were. I talked to a Catholic priest friend of mine who agreed that converts were the most fervent and were always on your case.

Yet, I have had Jewish people postulate more than once of the years to me as a Christian... It doesn't upset me, but leads to me asking many questions about the faith, Torah, etc... It has often helped me grow stronger in G_d these talks...

Religion and faith is a very personal thing. The relationship is between G-d and you with no one else inbetween so to me whether you have that relationship or not is none of my business. Whether you believe or not, whether you have a faith or not is none of my business. There is no need (other than curiosity) for me to understand Christians or any other religion for that matter, I am commanded to treat people as fairly and as well as I can as well as keep the Law. It is not a problem to me how other people live whether they are Jewish or not, everyone has responsiblity for themselves. Free will, you see. We have free will always.

This part I am in agreement with fully....

 

[CanuckMA]

But then, after they continue to talk with you about conversion, begin prosylitazing and converting them to the faith. I know, well, three Rabbi, one in Miami, one in Denver, and one in San Francisco that actively talk to people about conversion.

Once a person is determined to convert, it is not prosylitazing.

So 3 Rabbis actively seek random people to convert to Judaism? Or that encourage the non-Jewish spouse of an interfaith marriage to convert?

First off, the Jehova's Witness are not Christian based. They do not feel that Jesus is the Messiah as Christians do, they feel "Christ is G_d's Son and is inferior to Him". (Quoted from their web site.)

Next you'll say that Catholics are not Xtians either?

Which tells me that the interpretation of the Torah is not the same between people in one Synagogue much less another faction...

Which tells me you don't understand the nature of our debates.

No, I beg to differ here, CHRISTion (not Xtian, I don't down grade Jewish to some other insensible name, please don't Christian...) study of the Torah is not done with the sole purpose to justify Jesus and the New Testament. It is done to understand the rules as set by G_d (to respect your faith in not saying the word outright) in early history, which is part and foundation of our faith history. True Christian following requires that we understand it and follow it, were not changed in our "new covenant" with G_d, through Jesus.

You can spell G-d whichever way you want. There is a specific reason we write it that way, which BTW does not apply to computers, but we do it out of habit.

And how much of Halacha do you still follow?

 

[Tez3]

Ah, you see I'm being reprimanded already for making a little personal attack lo.l As a peron of faith no less I shouldn't make attacks. Who says not? You attack me sunshine I'll attack back usually better. You mistake me for a Christian sir, I turn no other cheek.
Faith, I don't have faith, I don't believe in G-d, I know theres a G-d so whether others do or not doesn't bother me. I like people for who they are not what religion, if any, they follow.

Jehovahs Witnesses are as Christian as any other Christian religion. The use of the word Xtian has been discussed on here before, I'm off on nights but will try to find the link. It was pointed out by Christians that in fact this is correct and isn't an insult or demeaning but goes back to the Greek/Latin ( sorry can't remember which) I believe. Have quickly googled and found this so it's not insulting.
http://xtians.org/

You can write G-d however you like, we write it that way for a reason as Canuck says which is nothing to do with computers, your writing it any way you want isn't disrespectful to us. Write it how you usually do.

Post up the names please of these rabbis who are trying to convert non Jews, we should be able to ask them the whys and wherefores.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Man I go to the gym for an hour and I have a dozen posts to go through when I get back….

Yes you should apologize for trying to convert people. Honestly? I believe you are wasting your life with your religion; you are putting in hours and hours of effort into a superstitious cult that in the end means nothing. BUT, unlike you and yours, I believe you have every right to participate in that cult unmolested by me. I will defend your right to practice your religion as you see fit, you are denying me the right to be unmolested in my non belief.

Yes you are coming from a condescending position. You have just convinced yourself otherwise. If you were coming at it from an equal footing, if you believed all positions equally had merit, you would not be trying to convert people to begin with. You see others as “lacking” something, and for reasons that you justify to yourself, you are trying to “fix” that person. It’s condescending.

There are no eternal consequences John. None. The people in this discussion know my beliefs, this is the 100th thread we’ve had these discussions, but they also know I value them, and as such, (except for a bit of teasing), I accept them for who they are, and that includes their beliefs. Though I know many do not agree with me, I do trust they feel the same way.

Downtown Toronto the other week, Yonge and Dundas, there were theists from three different sects approaching people, handing out pamphlets. I attend many lunch and dinner meetings where someone always decides we can’t eat until someone says grace. People knocking on my door. My tax dollars going to religious schools. Religious people trying to dumb down science by wanting creationism taught. Do you want me to go on?

I had a religious person tell me that I was going to hell because I was a non believer. BUT I gave more $ to charity, I volunteered more then she did, I treated people kinder then she did, I was more forgiving then she has ever been, I did not hold grudges and she did. If a god does exist, and she gets to go to a heaven and I don’t simply because I do not believe? There is something seriously wrong with that god.

 

[dbell]

Once a person is determined to convert, it is not prosylitazing.

Ok, I give you this one too....

So 3 Rabbis actively seek random people to convert to Judaism? Or that encourage the non-Jewish spouse of an interfaith marriage to convert?

Yep... On both cases.

Next you'll say that Catholics are not Xtians either?

No, the Catholic faith is very much a Christian faith, and is what most of the other Christian faiths split from for various reasons, often within the last 500 years...

Which tells me you don't understand the nature of our debates.

Probably not, as you didn't clarify it here, but from what I have seen in the various factions of the Jewish faith, there is great differences at times.

You can spell G-d whichever way you want. There is a specific reason we write it that way, which BTW does not apply to computers, but we do it out of habit.

And how much of Halacha do you still follow?

Of those not changed or removed by the teachings of Jesus, I TRY to follow all that I am able to read in the Old Testament.

 

[jks9199]

See John, that is exactly what Tez and I are talking about. The you-don't-what-your-text-means-let-me-explain-it-to-you, in your face stuff.

It's OUR book, writen in OUR language, for US. We have been studying it for 3,000 years. With the advantage of having lived the events and spoken the language. Do what you want with it within your group, but don't you dare try to tell us you know what it says better than we do.

But, to Christians, it is also OUR book, written to describe the relationship of G_d and the Chosen People, and to provide the foundation for the coming of Jesus Christ. Reading only the New Testament would be kind of like reading only the last chapter of a mystery novel.

I read a very interesting book a few years ago; The Bible and Us: A priest and rabbi read scripture together by Fr. Andrew Greeley and Rabbi Jacob Neusner. In a series of dialogues, they read parts of the Old Testament and discuss what they mean within their respective religions -- and how they read scripture in the first place. I found it very enlightening, and it gave me a lot of insight into how Catholic teaching on scripture developed. I strongly recommend it (and it seems they've done a second book; I'll have to find it).

 

[Tez3]

Ken, you wanna be Jewish? I have a nice sharp knife and the foods good....lol!

i've never understood why other peoples religions cause some people so much worrying and soul searching. Ken doesn't believe, so what? It's his life, his free will and as he's obviously not hurting anyone else why the grief over what he believes in? I don't feel the need to steer him towards religion or faith, whatever he does is his choice.
"Everything is foretold but free will is given" Sayings of the Fathers.

 

[CanuckMA]

Ok, I give you this one too....



Yep... On both cases.

As Tez asked, names?

Probably not, as you didn't clarify it here, but from what I have seen in the various factions of the Jewish faith, there is great differences at times.

The differences are much less than you may think.

 

[jarrod]

one thing that might be helpful for both jews & christians to remember is that portions of the 2nd testament, particularly the gospels, were written by jews both for other jews as well as gentiles, with the express purpose of bringing them into primitive christianity. which at the time was not branded as a seperate religion at the time. so in a way, this whole misunderstanding comes from some jews a few thousand years ago trying to convert gentiles to christianity

jf

 

[Ken Morgan]

Ken, you wanna be Jewish? I have a nice sharp knife

LOL!

Thanks TEZ, it's going to be some hours before I can make myself pee now!!

Evil woman....

 

[CanuckMA]

But, to Christians, it is also OUR book, written to describe the relationship of G_d and the Chosen People, and to provide the foundation for the coming of Jesus Christ.

And that is the crux of the argument. Torah is the history of my People, and of our Laws and our relationship with G-d. It does not foretell the comong of anybody, and great care is taken in translating and cherry picking out of context quotes to try to prove the foretelling. That is what we object to. Especially when it then used to tell us that we are wrong.

Moshiach has not come. Jesus did not meet any of the criterion. He was at best one of a long line of Jews claiming to be Moshiach.

You want to believe otherwise, go ahead but leave us in peace.

 

[CanuckMA]

LOL!

Thanks TEZ, it's going to be some hours before I can make myself pee now!!

Evil woman....

Yes, but the food man, think of the food. And all the extra holidays. :ultracool

 

[Ken Morgan]

Yes, but the food man, think of the food. And all the extra holidays. :ultracool

LOL! Nah, I'll pass, I like being "whole" thank you...

I don't know what school you went to, but York U was great 20 years ago, we had the Christian amd Jewish holidays off!!

 

[CanuckMA]

LOL! Nah, I'll pass, I like being "whole" thank you...

I don't what school you went to, but York U was great 20 years ago, we had the Christian amd Jewish holidays off!!

Much has changed at York U. My eldest son is there and he has taken to wearing various types of hats because walking around on campus wearing a kippa is not always the safest thing to do.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Much has changed at York U. My eldest son is there and he has taken to wearing various types of hats because walking around on campus wearing a kippa is not always the safest thing to do.

Really? That's B.S. If it were me? I’m wearing whatever I wanted to, and F*** the world. But I have attitude. If it were my son? I’d be telling him to do whatever he has to for his safety and not do anything stupid.

It's funny, (and not in a good way) that terrorists can lob mortars into Israel with impunity, and when Israel fights back, they’re the terrorists.

Can you imagine if we lobbed a few mortars into Detroit or Buffalo, (they might not notice in some neighborhoods&#8230, I’m pretty sure the Americans would hit back ten times as hard and no one would say anything.

 

[Carol]

When is the last time you saw a Muslim standing on a street downtown, trying to convert people?

Ohhhhhhhhhh this happens far more than you might think. In North America though, such Muslims are most often people of South Asian backgrounds that focus more on converting people of other south Asian backgrounds so Sikhs and Hindus are generally targeted more often than western Christians and Jews. This is often because cultural commonalities are used as a bridge.

In terms of western Muslims converting other westerners to Islam, there are several movements that do so, including groups within our prison system that target incarcerated men of color.

Here is a page by a Canadian Islamic group that discusses the idea of convertering or "bringing others in to Islam"

http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1248187881326&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam%2FDIELayout

There are also the Islamic states where, you may not necessarily have to be a Muslim, bu you must follow Shari'a Law. Whether you are Muslim or not is irrelevant. Even if Shari'a Law violates your own beliefs or imposes rules that your beliefs feel are not necessary, you still must follow them.

Even as a business traveler, if I am traveling in a Muslim area during the month of Ramadan, I either should not eat or drink anything in public (not even water) during daylight hours.

 

[Ken Morgan]

There are also the Islamic states where, you may not necessarily have to be a Muslim, bu you must follow Shari'a Law. Whether you are Muslim or not is irrelevant. Even if Shari'a Law violates your own beliefs or imposes rules that your beliefs feel are not necessary, you still must follow them.

Even as a business traveler, if I am traveling in a Muslim area during the month of Ramadan, I either should not eat or drink anything in public (not even water) during daylight hours.

Yeah.
You follow the laws, of whatever country you are visiting. Regardless of what you think of them. It's their country, it's their laws, you are the visitor. The same applies when people come to the west we do not recognise honour killings as just, if it offends you to see me eat a BLT, look the other way. etc, etc

 

[CanuckMA]

Ohhhhhhhhhh this happens far more than you might think. In North America though, such Muslims are most often people of South Asian backgrounds that focus more on converting people of other south Asian backgrounds so Sikhs and Hindus are generally targeted more often than western Christians and Jews. This is often because cultural commonalities are used as a bridge.

Honestly never saw it. J4J are everywhere, so are JW.

 

[Carol]

Honestly never saw it. J4J are everywhere, so are JW.

I believe you. While I'm not an expert on JW, from what I have seen they are people that speak the local language. I suspect that their success rate is in converting people that also speak the local language well, as opposed to converting the (say) Pakistani family down the street that speaks in a thick, unfamiliar accent.

Usually for an organized conversion effort to be successful, it must utilize common imagery and ancestery.

A Sikh or a Muslim probably has not had much interaction with Jews for Jesus. Instead, they may have come across the RSS, an organization that tries to aggressively convert many to Hinduism. For political reasons that are outside of scope of this discussion their most common target is Sikhs, although many Muslims are targeted as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh


Here is an About.com article writtin in 2000 entitled "Are Sikhs Hindus?". The content may not make much sense as it discusses concepts that are foreign to most folks that practice a western faith. However, you may be able to relate to some of the controversy, and perhaps see how attempts to convert a person using common imagery can happen many places in the world, not just with Christians and Jews.

http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa061000a.htm


I think it is very important to separate the behaviour from the faith. Christianity in its entirety is not to blame, neither is Hinduism, etc. There may be sticking points that are systemic to one pattern of conversion, but the root cause of the issue is the behaviour of certain people.

 

[jks9199]

And that is the crux of the argument. Torah is the history of my People, and of our Laws and our relationship with G-d. It does not foretell the comong of anybody, and great care is taken in translating and cherry picking out of context quotes to try to prove the foretelling. That is what we object to. Especially when it then used to tell us that we are wrong.

Moshiach has not come. Jesus did not meet any of the criterion. He was at best one of a long line of Jews claiming to be Moshiach.

You want to believe otherwise, go ahead but leave us in peace.

Are you suggesting that it can't be both; one thing to Jews and another to Christians?

Do you dispute that Christians see Christ as the realization and fulfillment of the promises and prophecies made in the various books that make up the Old Testament? At that point, can they not read it and see their meaning in it? After all, a noteworthy number of Jews in the first century AD apparently came to that conclusion as well.