The Hidden Roots of Judaism and and Christianity

[CanuckMA]

What translation is that?

My Ezekiel 20:20-31 is nowhere near that.

20 and hallow My sabbaths, and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. 21 But the children rebelled against Me; they walked not in My statutes, neither kept Mine ordinances to do them, which if a man do, he shall live by them; they profaned My sabbaths; then I said I would pour out My fury upon them, to spend My anger upon them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew My hand, and wrought for My name's sake, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, in whose sight I brought them forth. 23 I lifted up My hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the nations, and disperse them through the countries; 24 because they had not executed Mine ordinances, but had rejected My statutes, and had profaned My sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols. 25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and ordinances whereby they should not live; 26 and I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they set apart all that openeth the womb, that I might destroy them, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD. {S} 27 Therefore, son of man, speak unto the house of Israel, and say unto them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: In this moreover have your fathers blasphemed Me, in that they dealt treacherously with Me. 28 For when I had brought them into the land, which I lifted up My hand to give unto them, then they saw every high hill, and every thick tree, and they offered there their sacrifices, and there they presented the provocation of their offering, there also they made their sweet savour, and there they poured out their drink-offerings. 29 Then I said unto them: What meaneth the high place whereunto ye go? So the name thereof is called Bamah unto this day. {S} 30 Wherefore say unto the house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord GOD: When ye pollute yourselves after the manner of your fathers, and go after their abominations, 31 and when, in offering your gifts, in making your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, unto this day; {S} shall I then be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be inquired of by you;

 

[elder999]

Sorry about that. That first snippet is Ezekiel 6:20-21. Ezekiel's basically chewing Isrel out (again) for what is reiterated in Ezekiel 20:25-31, which is what I have there in the second snippet.....you'll see that my 20:25-31 pretty much matches yours, with some exceptions for word choices; the meaning and intent is the same, though.

And there's more:

King David participated in the sacrifice of seven men at the beginning of a barley harvest with an eye towards ending famine in the land.
There was famine in the kingdom of David for three years. When David asked God what he could do about it. God explained that it was because of bloodguilt on Saul because he put the Gibeonites to death.

King David participated in the sacrifice of seven men at the beginning of a barley harvest with an eye towards ending famine in the land. There was famine in the kingdom of David for three years. When David asked God what he could do about it. God explained that it was because of bloodguilt on Saul because he put the Gibeonites to death. So David called for the Gibeonites and wanted to know what he could do to expiate for what Saul did. The Gibeonites replied that it was not a matter of money. What they wanted was seven of Saul's sons so they may hang them. David agreed. David picked two of Saul's sons and five of his grandsons. They were hanged on the mountain before God, at the beginning of the barley harvest.

1Now there was a famine in the days of David for three years, year after year; and David sought the face of the LORD. And the LORD said,"There is bloodguilt on Saul and on his house, because he put the Gibeonites to death." 2So the king called the Gibeonites. Now the Gibeonites were not of the people of Israel, but of the remnant of the Amorites; although the people of Israel had sworn to spare them, Saul had sought to slay them in his zeal for the people of Israel and Judah. 3And David said to the Gibeonites, "What shall I do for you? And how shall I make expiation, that you may bless the heritage of the LORD?" 4The Gibeonites said to him, "It is not a matter of silver or gold between us and Saul or his house; neither is it for us to put any man to death in Israel." And he said, "What do you say that I shall do for you?" 5They said to the king, "The man who consumed us and planned to destroy us, so that we should have no place in all the territory of Israel, 6 let seven of his sons be given to us, so that we may hang them up before the LORD at Gibeon on the mountain of the LORD." And the king said, "I will give them." 7But the king spared Mephibosheth, the son of Saul's son Jonathan, because of the oath of the LORD which was between them, between David and Jonathan the son of Saul. 8The king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bore to Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Merab the daughter of Saul, whom she bore to Adri-el the son of Barzillai the Meholathite; 9and he gave them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them on the mountain before the LORD, and the seven of them perished together. They were put to death in the first days of harvest, at the beginning of barley harvest.
(2 Sam. 21:1-9)

After the time of Solomon, the kingdom of Israel split up into two kingdoms, Israel and Judah. When the kings of Israel and Judah were winning their invasion against the Moabites, the Moabite king made a burnt offering of his oldest son. A great wrath came upon Israel and they had to withdraw. In effect, the Moabite god, Chemosh, defeated Yahweh.

26When the king of Moab saw that the battle was going against him, he took with him seven hundred swordsmen to break through, opposite the king of Edom; but they could not. 27Then he took his eldest son who was to reign in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering upon the wall. And there came great wrath upon Israel; and they withdrew from him and returned to their own land. (2 Kings. 3:26-27)

The divided kingdom of Israel came to an end with its capture by the Assyrians. God is said to have made it happen because they worshipped alien gods, made burnt offerings of sons and daughters and practiced occultism.

16And they forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made for themselves molten images of two calves; and they made an Asherah, and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.17And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings, and used divination and sorcery, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger. 18Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight; none was left but the tribe of Judah only. (2 Kgs. 17:16-18)

Ahab and his Phoenician wife Jezebel were among God's most infamous royalty. He practiced "foundation sacrifice" in which a child in entombed in the foundation. We are told that Jericho could not be rebuilt without satisfying Joshua's curse against jericho, that whomever rebuilt the city would build it upon the bodies of his children.

33And Ahab made an Asherah. Ahab did more to provoke the LORD, the God of Israel, to anger than all the kings of Israel who were before him. 34In his days Hiel of Bethel built Jericho; he laid its foundation at the cost of Abiram his first-born, and set up its gates at the cost of his youngest son Segub, according to the word of the LORD, which he spoke by Joshua the son of Nun. (1 Kgs. 16:33-34)

King Ahaz burned his son in an offering in accordance with the practices of other nations

2Ahaz was twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem. And he did not do what was right in the eyes of the LORD his God, as his father David had done, 3but he walked in the way of the kings of Israel. He even burned his son as an offering, according to the abominable practices of the nations whom the LORD drove out before the people of Israel. (2 Kgs. 16:2-3)

Hoshea was the last king of Israel before it split from Judah. Under his reign the people burned their sons and daughters.

17And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings, and used divination and sorcery and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger. (2 Kings 17:7)

King Ahaz's grandson, Manasseh, reigned for 55 years, the longest in Judah's history. He is said to have burned his son as an offering. We can safely assume that the practice was widespread among the people of Judah during his reign.

1Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty-five years in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Hephzibah.

6And he burned his son as an offering, and practiced soothsaying and augury, and dealt with mediums and with wizards. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger. (2 Kgs. 21:6, 2 Chron. 33:6)

King Josiah's reign began approximately 50 years before the exile and lasted 31 years. Yet at this late stage, he still had to devote effort to stopping the people of Judah from sacrificing their children to Molech.

10He defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of Benhinnom, so that no one would make a son or a daughter pass through fire as an offering to Molech. (2 Kgs. 23:10)

 

[CanuckMA]

And none of that shows human sacrifice in Judaism.

The sacrifices are either performed by other nations, or by Israelites after they have turned away from G-d and offer sacrices to other gods.

And I Kings 16:34 reads:

In his days did Hiel the Bethelite build Jericho; with Abiram his first-born he laid the foundation thereof, and with his youngest son Segub he set up the gates thereof; according to the word of the LORD, which He spoke by the hand of Joshua the son of Nun.

Huge difference. Hiel did not sacrifice Abiram to build Jericho. Abiram helds Hiel build Jericho.

Try this text for translation: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/index.htm

The English is a bit archaic, but the translation is faithful to the Hebrew.

 

[elder999]

And none of that shows human sacrifice in Judaism.

Not really saying that-especially since "Judaism" didn't exist until after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., as I posted earlier-all of this obviously "happened" before Judaism.

What it shows though, is that through the ages the Hebrew elders who composed the texts, as well as the greater "nation of Israel"-whether actually in Israel or in exile-had a preoccupation with human sacrifice. They were, for the most part, surrounded by nations that utilized it. They did, from time to time, turn away from God and practice it. They did, from time to time, turn to other Gods and practice it. They did, from time to time, make allowances for other peoples to practice it-the commandment is that Israel have no other gods before Him, not that other people couldn't-it doesn't even make the case that other gods don't exist.

Given that they found themselves in this cultural milieu, the preoccupation is understandable. The Abrahamic taboo against it, though-obviously speaks to a time when they practiced it, taken in the context of that cultural milieu. I'll say again,why forbid something if it doesn't take place?

THink all of that qualifies as "roots." Somewhat obviously forgotten, if not "hidden." :lol:

Try this text for translation: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/index.htm

The English is a bit archaic, but the translation is faithful to the Hebrew.

The Bible Gateway has all kinds of translations, including the Westminster Leningrad Codex. Additionally, while it's a little underutilized, I'm completely capable of reading classical Hebrew myself, thanks. I can even stumble through Mishnaic and Aramaic....

And I Kings 16:34 reads:

In his days did Hiel the Bethelite build Jericho; with Abiram his first-born he laid the foundation thereof, and with his youngest son Segub he set up the gates thereof; according to the word of the LORD, which He spoke by the hand of Joshua the son of Nun.

Huge difference. Hiel did not sacrifice Abiram to build Jericho. Abiram helds Hiel build Jericho.

I think you meant "Abiram helps ?"

Yeah, he helped by being sacrificed and laid in the foundation, as per the words of the LORD, which he spoke by the hand of Joshua, the son of Nun:

26Joshua laid an oath upon them at that time, saying, "Cursed before the LORD be the man that rises up and rebuilds this city, Jericho. At the cost of his first-born shall he lay its foundation, and at the cost of his youngest son shall he set up its gates."
27So the LORD was with Joshua; and his fame was in all the land. (Josh. 6:26-27)

Next up, cannibalism.....

 

[redantstyle]

*settles back with some popcorn*

 

[elder999]

While Biblical sacrifice was practiced as a matter of appeasement, cannibalism was imposed as a matter of punishment, and maybe at times it was a matter of hunger. A woman complained to the king about being tricked by another woman to share in eating their sons. After they boiled the first son and ate him, the second woman refused to give up hers:

26Now as the king of Israel was passing by upon the wall, a woman cried out to him, saying, "Help, my lord, O king!"
27And he said, "If the LORD will not help you, whence shall I help you? From the threshing floor, or from the wine press?" 28And the king asked her, "What is your trouble?" She answered, "This woman said to me, 'Give your son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow.' 29So we boiled my son, and ate him. And on the next day I said to her, 'Give your son, that we may eat him'; but she has hidden her son." (2 Kings 6:26-29)

Speaking through Jeremiah, God threatened to make the Israelites eat the flesh of their sons and daughters. They were to eat their warring neighbors too:

9And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and every one shall eat the flesh of his neighbor in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them. (Jer. 19:9)

As judgment,God will make fathers eat their sons and sons shall eat their fathers:

9And because of all your abominations I will do with you what I have never yet done, and the like of which I will never do again.
10Therefore fathers shall eat their sons in the midst of you, and sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments on you, and any of you who survive I will scatter to all the winds. (Ezek. 5:9-10)

Speaking through Isaiah, Yahweh will make Israel's oppressors eat their own flesh and drink their own blood.

26I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with wine. (Isaiah. 49:26)

9So I said, "I will not be your shepherd. What is to die, let it die; what is to be destroyed, let it be destroyed; and let those that are left devour the flesh of one another." (Zech. 11:9)

Cannibalism, as I posted earlier, always has a religious connotation: in cultures where enemies were eaten, it was a magic rite where one consumed the enemies power. In instances of starvation, it takes on a feeling of being saved, and of the eaten person being a saviour of sorts. It is also accompanied at times by no small amount of stigma-it's almost the ultimate taboo.

Likewise, if Israel came to be in such a cultural milieu, where the stigma of cannibalism was seen as a punishment, we can infer that there were instances of cannibalism beyond these in its history-again,there would not be the recurring theme of this trauma and its being associated with a punishment from God. As in the case of ritual human sacrifice, it's a matter of being the smoke from the fire. Just as there'd be no prohibition against human sacrifice if it hadn't occured repeatedly, so too there would be no trauma, stigma and guilt associated with these instances of cannibalism, if it had not occurred.

 

[CanuckMA]

*settles back with some popcorn*

You'll be disapointed.


I'm done researching and arguing inacurate translations of out of context quotes.

No offence elder, but while you think you may be able to understand Biblical Hebrew, I study with people who are truly fluent in it and have spent their lives studying Torah.

 

[CanuckMA]

Not really saying that-especially since "Judaism" didn't exist until after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., as I posted earlier-all of this obviously "happened" before Judaism.

Judaism, the relogion of the Jews, started with the giving of Torah, roughly 1000 BCE

 

[elder999]

Judaism, the relogion of the Jews, started with the giving of Torah, roughly 1000 BCE

Well, that's nice quasi-traditional answer; at least you didn't say it began with the covenant with Abraham, 1,000 years earlier. It leads me to more questions, though.A couple of things first, though-historically, we have archaeological references in Hebrew to "YHWH and his consort Ahserah,-leading many historical scholars to put the beginnings of Jewish monotheism around 621 BCE during theKingdom of Judea, after the destruciton of the Kingdom of Israel, as this appears to be when Asherah was purged from the religion.

Secondly, while the roots of Judaism date back to this period and earlier, those people were generally not called "Jews," nor was their faith called "Judaism," or anything resembling that until much later.

Thirdly, and most importantly, we know that much of what is called Torah was the product of the "deuteronomist," during the reign of King Josiah, around 640 BCE. While the deuteronomist had to source the earlier scribes documents-referred to by historians as the "elohist" and the "yahwist" sources-most of what comes from those periods is thought to be consistent with and contemporatneous to Hebrew polytheistic periods, which we know from the Bible , which, compared with the chronological record, pretty much tells us that polytheistic practices were consistent through the north of Israel throughout the Bible's history, and persisted in the south, in Judah, right up through about the same period, up until King Hezekia, who tried to enforce monotheism around 730-690 BCE, but whose son allowed the people to revert to polytheism.

At any rate, we can place the proper beginnings of monotheistic Judaism in the reign of Josiah, around 640-610 BCE, but no one was called "Jewish," until the advent of rabbinical Judaism.

Judaism, the relogion of the Jews, started with the giving of Torah, roughly 1000 BCE

Written Torah, or [i[oral Torah?

'Cause, while you can say they were both "given" around 1000 BCE, or wherever you wish to place "Moses" (it's fair to say that the mythology dates from that period, anyway) the first document of the oral Torah, the Mishnah, wasn't first recorded until about 200 AD.

In any case, Rabbinical Judaism developed out of the Pharasiac movement and in response to the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE. It was really, at this point that the Hebrews became Jews. The rabbis sought to reinterpret Jewish concepts and practices in the absence of the Temple and for a people in exile. Aside from some small side movements (such as the Karaites), Rabbinical Judaism was the dominant form of the Jewish religion for nearly 18 centuries. It produced the Talmud, the Midrash, and the great figures of medieval Jewish philosophy

You'll be disapointed.

I'm done researching and arguing inacurate translations of out of context quotes.

Of course, the accurate english translations on the webpage you provided match mine in content and context, even with the "archaic english."

Does that means I'm right? :lol:

Perhaps we should both count ourselves lucky that I left the Piduyon HaBen out of this discussion...:lol:

No offence elder, but while you think you may be able to understand Biblical Hebrew, I study with people who are truly fluent in it and have spent their lives studying Torah.

.None taken. Two biggest books in a person's life:Things I Don't Know and Things They Don't Know About Me. Of course, "me", in this case, is just about anyone....

 

[Ray]

Thirdly, and most importantly, we know that much of what is called Torah was the product of the "deuteronomist," during the reign of King Josiah, around 640 BCE.

It is an untestable hypothesis. There are no extant dual sources. In such a case we should not say it is a known fact. It is a reasonable proposal though.