Split from Christianity and Self-Defense article topic

[CanuckMA]

The thing is that, if I believe that the Bible is the Word of God, and that the truth is that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, who died on the cross to redeem us all -- then how can I not share that truth if asked?

I believe the operative phrase here is if asked

Xtians will all too often try to convince everybody that they are right, unsolicited.

 

[dbell]

What is a valid English translation of the Torah that one can acquire? Is this valid:

http://www.amazon.com/Torah-Rabbi-R...TF8&coliid=I1OAWA8JP86D2Z&colid=1AKFCA6W040N5

 

[CanuckMA]

What is a valid English translation of the Torah that one can acquire? Is this valid:

http://www.amazon.com/Torah-Rabbi-R...TF8&coliid=I1OAWA8JP86D2Z&colid=1AKFCA6W040N5

I'm not familiar with this Rabbi or his organization.

From an Orthodox perspective, I'd recommend http://www.amazon.com/Tanach-Twenty-Four-Translated-Annotated-ArtScroll/dp/0899062695

The JPS Tanach is also fairly neutral
http://www.amazon.com/Tanakh-Script...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260891734&sr=1-2

Although the language is a bit dated, a very good, faithfull online translation can be found here http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm

 

[girlbug2]

The crossing the road analogy isn't a good one if all you are trying to save people from is imaginery buses Remember too the free choice that is given to us by G-d, that means if I chose to cross the road when traffic is coming and don't chose to look you have no right to stop me or advise me on how to cross the road. It's simply none of your business.

Okay, in another universe maybe people can be so cold and heartless that they are completely detatched from what happens to others. I don't think either of us exists in that universe. I don't believe for a minute you would really react that way.

Spiritually, our religions have the same roots. I look at it as like sibling relationships. Our Dad (God) told me to watch out for my brothers (Israel, as well as others in the world) and to help them like a sister should. So of course I would warn them of the bus coming their way. It's not about being arrogant or showing that I'm right, it's about caring.

Some of the comments from your other posts paint a picture of the world as a very stressful and unsettling place for the Jewish. Historically, the world has not been kind to your people to say the least. There are a lot of well known examples of people who want to see you destroyed, yes even people who claim to be Christians. None of this is possible for anyone to deny.

But please know that these are not the people I know either in my church or elsewhere. I wish you could meet and talk to some of my friends in church, so that you could see their heart is for you and not against you. We are not just isolated examples, either. Lots of churches across the world stand with Israel. You have friends.

 

[CanuckMA]

But your 'watching out' is destroying our soul. That is the problem. And we are able to stand on our own. After all, your brother is at least 1,000 years older than you.

[paranoid mode]
How many of those churches that support Israel do so for political gain? Or do so because with Israel standing, and helping Jews move there, they can get all the Jews into Israel and therefore fulfill the End Times prophesy, where we either convert or die?
[/paranoid mode]

 

[Ken Morgan]

...and some wonder why I'm an atheist......

 

[dbell]

I'm not familiar with this Rabbi or his organization.

From an Orthodox perspective, I'd recommend http://www.amazon.com/Tanach-Twenty-Four-Translated-Annotated-ArtScroll/dp/0899062695

The JPS Tanach is also fairly neutral
http://www.amazon.com/Tanakh-Script...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260891734&sr=1-2

Although the language is a bit dated, a very good, faithfull online translation can be found here http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm

By neutral you mean?

 

[CanuckMA]

I mean it is an accurate translation, in modern English that does not go over the top with genderless language.

 

[dbell]

I mean it is an accurate translation, in modern English that does not go over the top with genderless language.

Cool, thanks.

 

[CanuckMA]

Agreed. But that's kinda my point. I don't see too many lay Christians going around telling Jewish scholars that they are going to hell. What I do tend to see is Christians giving non-Christians some measure of information, and then saying come to my church where a person who has studied more then I have can teach you.

And we are saying, we don't care. Leave us alone. You have nothing to teach us.

And I get that. All I'm saying is to maybe keep an open mind and understand that, in my opinion, the vast majority of Christians are not that way.

How about you keep an open mind if I tell you you're wrong?

I don't think you example is synonymous with mine. You are talking about actions versus my position of beliefs. And as you say later, this, unlike your example, is an internal debate, ostensibly between people who know what they are talking about, or have a similar level of understanding. Jewish "Christians" are still Jews, not outsiders looking in, so to speak.

No such thing. They maybe Jewish according to Halacha, but they are Xtian in practice. Religiously, you can one or the other.

I get that they may not want to be told how to interpret those texts. But, considering that Christian scholars may have the same level of learning as Jewish scholars on the subject, both of whom believe in similar, if not exactly the same thing, how is their interpretation any less valid, which was my question.

Because we don't believe in the same thing. You believe that Jesus is the Messiah. We don't. He may have claimed to be, but he failed the 3 basic tests.

Because your interpretation is geared into fitting the coming of Jesus as Messiah into text that does not imply it at all. The Prophets, the 2 Isaiahs in particular, commonly used parent/child language to talk about the G-d/Israel relationship. To speak to Jews in their time, either during time of crisis whithin Israel or during exiles, to tell them that G-d had not abandonned them.

If that is the case, then so be it. I can accept that. They may not want people who only follow the rules on the Sabbath, and leave the other days to their whim. But from what has been said here, it is as though Jews actively do not want non-ethnic Jews converting to their religion, and will only accept them grudgingly. If I'm wrong, I want them to let me know.

There is no such thing as an ethnic Jew. We come in all colours and nationality. Yes, you an be born Jewish, but the fact that anybody can convert destroys the notion of ethnicity.

We just want to make sure they really want to do this. To live as an observant Jew is difficult. Coming from outside the community, it will mean restricting ties with your family. We don't demand it, it's a by-product. You won't be able to eat at your parent's place for example. You also open yourself for persecution.

 

[Xinglu]

I hope that you do. Not in order to change your mind about the belief system itself, but so that you generalization about an entire group of people will be crushed, and you will judge each individual on their own merits or vices.

Excuse me? I am not prejudice against Christians nor will I tolerate the implication that I am. I have simply noted what all but one of my interactions with them has been. Because of this I have formed an opinion about their organisation/institution not about parishioners/adherents/faithful that I don't personally know or have met.

I have no use for the Christian faith, I have seen and experienced nothing but arrogance and condescension from it's organizations and people. If you can't see how arrogant it is to assume you (general you, as you are not a christian) are right about religion and that everyone who does not believe as you do needs to convert, because they are wrong, and then proceed to preach and teach others unsolicited as arrogant, then we must simply agree to disagree.

Teachers do not teach unsolicited. Students sign up for their classes. Students come to them, they don't go to people and deem them to be a student. The arrogance involved in doing something like that is huge. That would be like an english teacher walking up to every hispanic and deeming them in need of their instruction in the english language. Never mind that this person might already speak it fluently or might not even be interested in the language.

The same goes for religion - it is deeply personal and should stay that way. If people are interested and come to you to learn about it, by all means teach and preach. But, don't come knocking on my door at 8 in the morning, don't preach to me when we happen to be at the mailbox at the same time, don't assume I need or want your religious opinions in my life let alone shoved down my throat (remember the "you" here is generalized).

But I am not arguing that they believe the same thing. Obviously they don't.

Actually you are, unless of course are you retracting the following statement you previously made.

But, considering that Christian scholars may have the same level of learning as Jewish scholars on the subject, both of whom believe in similar,if not exactly the same thing...

(emphasis mine)

Christians can't even agree amongst themselves what Christianity really is or who a Christian is. Protestants call Catholics, LDS, JW non-christians. Evangelicals call non evangelicals non-christians. Catholics regard non-catholics as a dead branch. At least the different sects of Judaism still regard each-other as Jews!

 

[Xinglu]

You won't be able to eat at your parent's place for example.

Can you please alleviate my ignorance here? Why wouldn't a convert be able to eat at the home of their parents?

 

[CanuckMA]

Can you please alleviate my ignorance here? Why wouldn't a convert be able to eat at the home of their parents?

Very unlikely that the parents are keeping a kosher home.

 

[Xinglu]

Ah! Makes sense to me. Thanks!

 

[Carol]

Christians can't even agree amongst themselves what Christianity really is or who a Christian is. Protestants call Catholics, LDS, JW non-christians. Evangelicals call non evangelicals non-christians. Catholics regard non-catholics as a dead branch. At least the different sects of Judaism still regard each-other as Jews!

It might be a bit harsh to say that Catholics regard non-Catholics as a dead branch. Perhaps a more accurate description would be that Catholics as Christians, just not Catholics. The Church does not offer the Holy Sacrements (such as communion) to non-Catholics, and a Catholic is not allowed to go elsewhere to fulfill their obligations. A Catholic can attend a service at a Protestant church (or a Hindu mandir, etc) but that service doesn't count towards the obligation of attending one consecrated Mass per week. But if a person coming in to the Roman Catholic Church has been baptized at (say) a Protestant church, the baptism is still valid, and accepted by the Church -- even though it wasn't performed there.

 

[Xinglu]

It might be a bit harsh to say that Catholics regard non-Catholics as a dead branch. Perhaps a more accurate description would be that Catholics as Christians, just not Catholics. The Church does not offer the Holy Sacrements (such as communion) to non-Catholics, and a Catholic is not allowed to go elsewhere to fulfill their obligations. A Catholic can attend a service at a Protestant church (or a Hindu mandir, etc) but that service doesn't count towards the obligation of attending one consecrated Mass per week. But if a person coming in to the Roman Catholic Church has been baptized at (say) a Protestant church, the baptism is still valid, and accepted by the Church -- even though it wasn't performed there.

Harsh, perhaps, but valid. Last time I checked the RCC views the "holy sacraments" as essential to salvation. Since only RCC members can receive those sacraments, the implication is that protestants and any offshoot from that branch are ultimately "dead" or spiritually "blocked" unable to progress past a certain point.

While the first sacrament baptism may be recognized by the RCC from other denominations Confirmation/Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony are not.

Confirmation is important because to the RCC it is the validation and sealing of the baptismal covenant. Something non-catholics cannot have and is taught as essential to salvation.

Eucharist is obligatory at least once a year. Non-Catholics cannot have this.

Penance and Reconciliation (confession) is to set right the sins one has made since baptism. Non-Catholics cannot be absolved of their sins in this manner, yet another essential to salvation sacrament.

Anointing of the sick includes last rites... kinda important within the RCC. Cannot be had by non-Catholics.

Holy Orders, not essential.

Matrimony while the RCC is obligated to recognize all legal marriages they do not consider non-sanctified marriages as holy or blessed by God. This implies a lot of things.

So - to the RCC those not partaking of the sacraments are up a certain creek with no paddle to speak of. Might sound harsh, but boiled down to brass tacks, that is their position.

 

[Xinglu]

The crossing the road analogy isn't a good one if all you are trying to save people from is imaginery buses Remember too the free choice that is given to us by G-d, that means if I chose to cross the road when traffic is coming and don't chose to look you have no right to stop me or advise me on how to cross the road. It's simply none of your business.

Okay, in another universe maybe people can be so cold and heartless that they are completely detatched from what happens to others. I don't think either of us exists in that universe. I don't believe for a minute you would really react that way.

Spiritually, our religions have the same roots. I look at it as like sibling relationships. Our Dad (God) told me to watch out for my brothers (Israel, as well as others in the world) and to help them like a sister should. So of course I would warn them of the bus coming their way. It's not about being arrogant or showing that I'm right, it's about caring.

Some of the comments from your other posts paint a picture of the world as a very stressful and unsettling place for the Jewish. Historically, the world has not been kind to your people to say the least. There are a lot of well known examples of people who want to see you destroyed, yes even people who claim to be Christians. None of this is possible for anyone to deny.

But please know that these are not the people I know either in my church or elsewhere. I wish you could meet and talk to some of my friends in church, so that you could see their heart is for you and not against you. We are not just isolated examples, either. Lots of churches across the world stand with Israel. You have friends.

Here is a major difference between Judaism and Christianity, and I think your post touches on it. In Judaism one does not have to be a Jew to be considered righteous in the eyes of God. Becoming a Jew is like taking on extra responsibilities (out of love mind you) or going from faith to devotional service.

Within Christianity one can only be righteous through Jesus and faith in him being the Christ.

This is an important distinction here, because it speaks to intention. You have accused the Jews of being cold and heartless for not pushing their religion on others. Yet, they do that out of compassion! To them, you can still be righteous in the eyes of God without being a Jew, and to take up their mantel and walk their devotional path is to make it harder to maintain/achieve righteousness!

Of course if you truly loved God, and were devoted to him, taking on such a mantle would be no big deal. I look at Judaism as an expression of devotion rather than just having faith in the God of Abraham.

 

[Xinglu]

Question: is there a good copy of the Tanakh with both the hebrew and english side by side?

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Ok, before I get started, I’ll attempt to answer two important questions, because those definitions will be germane to my answers.

Who is a Jew: Halacha (Jewish Law) defines a Jew as on born of a Jewish mother or one who is converted in accordance to Halacha. And that is the only definition that matters.

What are the Jews: That one is a bit trickier. We are not a religious group. Although one must be a Jew to practice Judaism, and one converts through a religious process, you can be a Jew without practicing Judaism. We are not an ethnic group. You can covert to Judaism. I can eat Chow Mein 3 times a day for the rest of my life, I’ll never be Chinese.
Best description available is that we are a people with shared experiences and a religion.

So if you can be a Jew without practicing Judaism, does that mean that practicing another religion makes you not a Jew? That is the question that I am asking in relation to the fact that you say that if you are ethnically Jewish and are trying to be converted would destroy Jews.

BTW, the idea of ethnically Jewish is valid by definition: pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.

For a teacher to teach, no. That assumes that a) there is something to teach, and that you have a student. Your example posits the Xtian view that anybody who does not believe as you do is in mortal danger. That is arrogant and condescending.

Again, I go back to the walking across the street without looking. I understand that people often don't want to be told things that upset their world view (in the broad sense), and get upset when it is done. What I am trying to illustrate is that rather then get up in arms about it, why the absolute refusal to take it in the spirit with which it is intended. If a person is being obnoxious when doing so, then treat him as such. If they are trying to legitimately "help" (as this word for some reason keeps getting taken out of context, I will put it in quotations) and are being kind and considerate , then why not take it in that context?

We don’t need the ‘help’. Again, assumption that what I’m doing is wrong and I need help.

Again, say so and move on. I just don't get the anger about it.

J4J and their ilk are not Jewish organizations. They are Xtians who surround themselves with Jewish trappings to deceive Jews that their way is acceptable.

Be that as it may, I don't know anything about J4J. I used them as they were already discussed. Whether it's a group or individuals, the point is still the same.

As I said in my intro, part of who we are is our religion. By wanting to convert us to Xtianity, you want to annihilate Judaism. That will destroy Jews as a people. Whether a Jew practices or not, who we are and what we do is intrinsically linked to Judaism. Destroy Judaism and you’ve destroyed the Jews.

That's what I'm not understanding. You say that you don't need to practice Judaism to be Jewish, but at the same time you say that Judaism is a part of being Jewish. Your statements are conflicting.

That some Halachic Jews are practicing Xtians does not lead any more credence to Xtianity than anything else.

And I find your last comment reveling, and deeply offensive. There is that arrogance again. You are right, and Jews are wrong.

What I am trying to get at here is that in the Jewish world, there are Jews who dispute the orthodox view, whether right or wrong. This is a question of epistomolgy, not dogma.

I would be interested in what you think the statement reveales about me. I have no bone to pick in this fight other then people getting along, and gathering information for my own understanding of how, generally speaking, Jews view other ethincities and religions. Again, the questions are one of trying to debate the epistomology of this subject, or how can we know who is right or wrong.

We debate the language, we debate why a particular word was used. We don’t shift the entire meaning.

But apparently some ethinc Jews do. That was my point.

Your interpretation may be right for you, but all too often it is based on mistranslation and/or horribly out of context quotes. Or just plain not wanting to see the original intentions.

Understand, I am not trying to pick a fight with you. But....

I find it interesting that you have no problem with calling Christians wrong or lack knowledge, but when the same characterization is made of you, somehow you take umbrage with that. You don't like to treat others the way that you are treated. And I'm talking about our discussions here, not with some obnoxious Christian who is badgering you. Somehow, Brother John (for instance) telling you that your interpretation is wrong and he is attempting to destroy your people, but you telling him that his entire belief system is perfectly justifiable. Talk about arrogant and condescending. Kettle, meet pot.

First Commandment, I am the Lord your G-d, you shall have no other god before Me.

Adonai is our G-dHe is the One G-d. But it does not preclude that others may worship other gods. And quite frankly, we don’t care.

Ok. But do Jews acknowledge that other gods actually exist in reality? I really don't know. And what happens to people in the afterlife, if Jews believe in such, if they do not believe in the Jewish God?

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Excuse me? I am not prejudice against Christians nor will I tolerate the implication that I am. I have simply noted what all but one of my interactions with them has been. Because of this I have formed an opinion about their organisation/institution not about parishioners/adherents/faithful that I don't personally know or have met.

Sorry, but you have stated that Christians are arrogant and condescending. Maybe you were generalizing, and don't believe that of every Christian. My statement, if you could at least try to take it for what it's worth, was that I hope you meet Christians who are unlike you past experience so that you would not have, as you statments seem to suggest, an inherent dislike of them as a group, as your own following statment seems to suggest:

I have no use for the Christian faith, I have seen and experienced nothing but arrogance and condescension from it's organizations and people. If you can't see how arrogant it is to assume you (general you, as you are not a christian) are right about religion and that everyone who does not believe as you do needs to convert, because they are wrong, and then proceed to preach and teach others unsolicited as arrogant, then we must simply agree to disagree.

Teachers do not teach unsolicited. Students sign up for their classes. Students come to them, they don't go to people and deem them to be a student. The arrogance involved in doing something like that is huge. That would be like an english teacher walking up to every hispanic and deeming them in need of their instruction in the english language. Never mind that this person might already speak it fluently or might not even be interested in the language.

If you are talking about modern methods of "teaching" then you are correct. But, in times past, teachers often taught unsolisited.

The same goes for religion - it is deeply personal and should stay that way. If people are interested and come to you to learn about it, by all means teach and preach. But, don't come knocking on my door at 8 in the morning, don't preach to me when we happen to be at the mailbox at the same time, don't assume I need or want your religious opinions in my life let alone shoved down my throat (remember the "you" here is generalized).

I know that if someone saw me doing something "wrong", and had a sincere belief that they were trying to do something beneficial for me, then I would take it in that context. I would not get up in arms and be angry about it.

Actually you are, unless of course are you retracting the following statement you previously made.

(emphasis mine)

Ok, I think you misunderstood me. What I was saying was that even if they don't believe exactly the same thing, they believe similar things.

Christians can't even agree amongst themselves what Christianity really is or who a Christian is. Protestants call Catholics, LDS, JW non-christians. Evangelicals call non evangelicals non-christians. Catholics regard non-catholics as a dead branch. At least the different sects of Judaism still regard each-other as Jews![/quote]

But Jewish in what context? Ethnically, religiously. I have asked, and received contradictory answers, on what exactly it means to be a Jew.