OP
- Thread Starter
- #81
I can understand why you forgot it, it was a rant of Lilliputian proportions made by a person with a tiny male appendage.
Split from Christianity and Self-Defense article topic
- Thread starter Tez3
- Start date
I can understand why you forgot it, it was a rant of Lilliputian proportions made by a person with a tiny male appendage.
Brother John
Senior Master
Well......actually their prophets and religious leaders wrote it.
I find it arrogant anytime people, no matter their denomination or religious persausion, tell others how they MUST or must Not interpret their own religious texts. But I will say that Christians also have a claim to the books we call the "Old Testament". Despite what some on here have stated, a well informed follower of Jesus Christ aught to look at them as equally important. The 'old' is the backdrop for the new, and without it the new would make very little sense. So I'm not going to tell anyone that they don't understand their own scriptures. But what I will tell people is that I have a right to read, interpret and judge for myself concerning the books that are cannonical to my faith. IF my interpretation doesn't coincide with a Jews, or a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon or Catholic's or Muslim's interpretation.... it doesn't mean that I'm in the wrong for sticking to my convictions.
Just something to think about.
Sort of like Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Scientists.... take the New Testament and make it say things to fit their theological slant, tell 'mainstream' Christians that they're wrong or apostate?
It's been happening for a Very long time already.
We already know how we feel about it.
I disagree. I'm pretty sure that most practicing Jews, conservative, liberal or what have you... wouldn't agree with Jesus saying that he was the ONLY way to get to God the Father, that he and God were "One", or even when he attributed the title "I AM" to himself. There's a LOT more than just that from the words of Christ himself, but those are just a few highlights that Jews would almost certainly disagree with I'd think.
Who IS capable of always getting that "First rule" right? Only Christ was able to. We may try, but we are still only humans.
Think about it like this: IF the things posited in the Christian New Testament IS true..... for the sake of argument.....IF it IS, then if we are to LOVE God First and foremost...we MUST follow Christ's commandment to share this with the rest of the world, Jews, Muslims, Agnostics.....etc. Also: IF we fully believe that what we are taught in "Christianity" is the literal Truth... then we'd be very very UN-loving to NOT share this truth liberally with any and all that we can. Just something to ponder.
Almost every Jew (with few exceptions) I have ever met has embraced me and treated me with more kindness and tolerance than I probably deserve. I cannot say the same for Christians. In fact, in my experience tolerance and friendship of those outside "the faith" is most uncommon. Sooner or later I'm expected to convert or cut off from friendship or attacked for not believing what they do. And what boggles my mind, is that Christianity is a fractured religion filled with infighting. They can't even agree on the littlest of things from one denomination to the next, and proclaim each-other to be heretics! Yet demand to be considered the religion of tolerance and love...
It seems like the Jews (the mother of all Abrahamic religions) have been betrayed and set upon by her children (Christians and Muslims) and it just baffles me.
- In peace
It sounds like you've had a horrible experience of what Christianity is. I'm very sorry to hear that.
Fractured? Yes. So are Jews, Muslims, Hindu.....etc. Seems to me that almost every religion on the Earth fractures and divides on issues of doctrine and practice.
Your Brother
John
But when you tell me that YOUR interpretation of MY Holy Books is the only correct one, you have seriously overstepped the line. Especially when the interpretation is all too often based on mistranlations and grossly out of context quotes.
Brother John
Senior Master
Xinglu
Black Belt
I have had nothing but the worst experience with Christianity. As with all religions, people "interpret" the scriptures to suit their own selfish agenda. Perhaps it is because I'm in a Christian dominated society, but I have experienced, seen, and been on the receiving end of those "interpretations" from more Christians per capita than non-Christians.
Who is capable? We all are. Otherwise "we" wouldn't have been commanded to do the impossible. I find it a complete copout to say only Yeshua could do it, after all, if only he could do it, then what is the point of even trying?
One of my favorite passages from the New testament is as follows, "if any one may say -- 'I love God,' and his brother he may hate, a liar he is; for he who is not loving his brother whom he hath seen, God -- whom he hath not seen -- how is he able to love?" (1 John 4:20 [Young's Literal Translation]) It is the actions and how Christianity "shares their truth" that show how they do not love their "brethren." I have even been told that this scripture refers only to "fellow believers" and not "unbelievers." That just sounds like yet another copout.
Religionists are very off-putting to me.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #88
I think Christianity is probably the only religion that makes it a point to try to convert others, often forcibly or on pain of death. No other religion is so in your face and so determined to push their beliefs on others. Judaism positively discourages people from converting and doesn't go looking for people to preach to. I haven't come across any other religion including Islam that does this.
As for anyone interpreting the Old Testament the way they want to this has led to Christians using our dietary laws to forbid the use of blood transfusions and put lives at risk, that worries me. No one can tell me that I have the interpretation wrong and they have it right in this case.
I think you will find the Jews a lot less 'fractured' than you think, many people mistake our ways where argument is the basis for study as being wrong and that we are are serious odds with each other.
I find it odd that many many learned and wise rabbis well versed in Torah over the ages who have make it their life's study are discarded by Christians when it comes to reading and understanding the 'Old Testament'. I don't understand how people can read it through and make judgements about what it means without understanding all the laws not just the 10 commandments, the traditions and the very way of life of the people it is about. For example do you know when a boy is considered a man, exactly? About how to conduct business, marriages, deal with servants etc? All this has already been interpreted before the time of Jesus and if the wish is to understand what went before why isn't it done properly?
Our prophets and religious leaders are of us and are us. They aren't separate.
As for anyone interpreting the Old Testament the way they want to this has led to Christians using our dietary laws to forbid the use of blood transfusions and put lives at risk, that worries me. No one can tell me that I have the interpretation wrong and they have it right in this case.
I think you will find the Jews a lot less 'fractured' than you think, many people mistake our ways where argument is the basis for study as being wrong and that we are are serious odds with each other.
I find it odd that many many learned and wise rabbis well versed in Torah over the ages who have make it their life's study are discarded by Christians when it comes to reading and understanding the 'Old Testament'. I don't understand how people can read it through and make judgements about what it means without understanding all the laws not just the 10 commandments, the traditions and the very way of life of the people it is about. For example do you know when a boy is considered a man, exactly? About how to conduct business, marriages, deal with servants etc? All this has already been interpreted before the time of Jesus and if the wish is to understand what went before why isn't it done properly?
Our prophets and religious leaders are of us and are us. They aren't separate.
Brother John
Senior Master
again, I'm sorry you've had nothing but bad experiences with Christians. That's extremely sad. I understand where you're coming from. Even BEING a Christian, I've sure had my share of negative experiences from other fellow believers. That too, however, isn't unique to Christianity. The Biggest problem with any of the religions on Earth is that they are represented and made up by fallible humans, with all of the problems and baggage that come with our human frailty. Don't see how any of us can get around that. I pray that someday you have a very positive experience with Christians, and that you're open to know it as such.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. The ability to ALWAYS Love purely and perfectly is a gift from God IF it's ever achieved. I don't think that any person could fully and continually accomplish this outside of a miracle. But there are instances in which we are given a goal or pointed by God toward an ideal standard that's beyond our ability to accomplish fully or always. For instance, lets look at the place where Jesus Christ is telling us, as you pointed out, to Love always.
((BTW: As you preferred Young's Literal Translation, I used it here. For those not used to it, might try looking up these same verses in a different language. I suggest the New American Standard Bible; still a direct translation, but must more readable.))
There've been people in history and maybe even alive today who can do VERY well with this, but not always, not perfectly. AND: Being "Perfect"?? Only by the Grace of God can that be accomplished. So sometimes we are instructed to do what cannot be fully accomplished, perfectly all of the time by flesh-bound humans. Only by the supernatural help of God can we even come close.
Just my point of view.
For an old Testament comparison, compare the beautiful verses where God establishes the covenant with Abraham:
Yet even Abraham didn't fully and continually be "perfect".
Just for consideration.
YES! That would be a copout, in no uncertain terms!
But also, might consider this: Nobody likes being shown their errors, being disillusioned about what they "Though" life was really all about, OR..... and I'll use a strong word here.......being made to see their own "SIN". That can really rankle anyone. It's never comfortable, even for those of us who already 'believe'. But, it's a necessary step. Often, VERY VERY often, that step is the biggest stumbling block to anyone investigating Christianity. It's an offense to them and they view it as intrusive or "judgmental"....things like that. So....if they go no further than this early stumbling block and resist the 'truth' because of it, they often come away with very negative impressions of Christianity and simply remember the uncomfortable, anger evoking, "offense".
Also: Christian's DO try to convert others. I'm not at all apologetic about that fact. It's simply the truth. BUT......we're often woefully inept at being ABLE to do it well. That's a horribly sad truth. Being able to share the truths about Jesus Christ with others SHOULD be one of the biggest things on our mind, but really.....it's frightening. Remember that "First Stumbling Block" I talked about above? It's very frightening to a well meaning Christian who really feels moved to share the Gospel with others!! Nobody wants to offend!!! In fact, it's the direct opposite of what we'd really like to do. Yet, it's a hurdle that we've got to approach and jump over. It's never easy. But like I said, it's a necessary step! Sadly, many of us either bungle that step OR....the person digs in their heels at the idea that they are a sinner (very common) and the believer doesn't know how to handle THAT with good tact. Not easy. Then...we come off as being pushy and demanding. Sad. The people I've met who are Gifted in being able to effectively share their faith with others are my HEROES! But they're rarer than I'd like.
Me too. Had to look up the term "Religionist", but when I read that it says: Excessive or affected religious zeal.
I agree. IF one's religious zeal isn't real but 'affected'.....in other words, forced or fake, it has horrible results for them, the people they effect and even the 'religion' they think they're serving.
Hope ya'll are having a GOOD day!
Your Brother
John
Actually you should apologize for trying to convert others.
Attempting a conversion on someone comes from a condescending position of you having the correct faith/belief and the rest of us are being naïve little children who just need to be shown the proper way. We are not children, we are adults who have made our choices in life, based on our beliefs and our experiences we are where we need to be right now. We do not want or need someone to save us.
I personally believe if you and many others would personally believe what I believe, you would become better human beings for it, but it is up to you to come to that conclusion. I have no right to interfere in your life in order to help you see the truth.
Brother John
Senior Master
I follow Jesus Christ. He told us to do this. There's really nothing to apologize for. Sometimes the approach IS wrong and that may need to be apologized for. But if you felt that I was headed toward certain doom, but you knew a way not only off of that path but onto one that lead to certain HOPE and reward, you'd be right to try to convince me, to persuade me to change the path I was on. You'd be showing me love. There's nothing in that that needs apologized for.
I couldn't disagree more. Attempting to persuade someone of something doesn't mean that you're a child. Attempting to inform someone of something that they simply don't know doesn't mean that they are naive.
#1: Then please share of it on a level that accords with the level of importance that your beliefs imply. Being a Christian means infinitely more than just becoming a 'better human being'. If that's all it was it would be extremely trivial. But being a Christian has eternal consequences.
#2: Have You been 'interfered with' in your life by a Christian? What is your idea/definition of being 'interfered with'??
Your Brother
John
See John, that is exactly what Tez and I are talking about. The you-don't-what-your-text-means-let-me-explain-it-to-you, in your face stuff.
It's OUR book, writen in OUR language, for US. We have been studying it for 3,000 years. With the advantage of having lived the events and spoken the language. Do what you want with it within your group, but don't you dare try to tell us you know what it says better than we do.
To answer your last question to Ken, take a walk on university campuses. Have a look at what the Baptist organization Jews for Jesus is doing. Trying to entice young people who are away from home for the first time, many impressionable and convince them that their way is still Judaism.
Or the setting up of 'Hebrew-Xtian synagogues' in areas where a lot Russian Jews are living, preying on a population that did not have lot of Jewish education and trying to rob them of their Heritage.
It's OUR book, writen in OUR language, for US. We have been studying it for 3,000 years. With the advantage of having lived the events and spoken the language. Do what you want with it within your group, but don't you dare try to tell us you know what it says better than we do.
To answer your last question to Ken, take a walk on university campuses. Have a look at what the Baptist organization Jews for Jesus is doing. Trying to entice young people who are away from home for the first time, many impressionable and convince them that their way is still Judaism.
Or the setting up of 'Hebrew-Xtian synagogues' in areas where a lot Russian Jews are living, preying on a population that did not have lot of Jewish education and trying to rob them of their Heritage.
dbell
Blue Belt
I see it happening from Islam and Muslims all the time. What do you think is going on in Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan these past hundred years or so?
I have seen it come Judaism as well over the years as well. It is even talked about in the Torah/Old Testament of bringing people (servants/etc) into the faith.
You lost me on this. Who has done this in the Christian faith?
There are several "factions" in the Jewish faith, each translating the Torah or living to the Torah in different ways. It is not as fractured as the Christian based faiths have become over the last few hundred years, but there are fractures there as well.
I'm not sure what you mean by the last two sentences here?
Yet, you discredit those learned Priest/Ministers/Theologians who make it their life studies well versed in the New and Old Testament? If you mean the lay person, I know many Jewish people that do not know the Torah well, who only live by part of the rules of life outlined in the Torah, just as I know many Christians that do not live by the rules of life outlined by the Bible of their faith. I know many Jewish people that, while they go to Synagogue weekly, outside of the Synagogue they barely follow their faith as well. It is a joint problem.
dbell
Blue Belt
And we needed to go to personal attacks now? (And I know I wasn't the person this attack is addressed to, but how does this fit within your faith?)
Brother John
Senior Master
Have I told you that you don't know what your scriptures mean? What have I done that's been "in your face"?
IF you're talking about the post directly preceding this one, I didn't say anything about anyone else's religion. Ken gave his opinion that Christian's should apologize for evangelizing, I simply disagreed and gave my reasons.
I've not done that too you sir. Not in the least. The fact that your ancestors lived the history recorded in the Tanakh (as many of my own did as well) and studied it from the day it was penned to now doesn't mean that you've got THE exclusively right interpretation. That's my belief. It doesn't mean that it's not ALSO a part of my heritage as a Christian, because it is.
Please understand, from the viewpoint of a well educated Christian, the New Testament is not separate from the Old Testament; it is the confirmation and fulfillment of it. It is the continuation of God dealing with man, bringing salvation to ALL of mankind, first through the Jews...as that is where the messiah came from. To the Christian point of view, Jesus is the messiah. I'm not telling you what you must believe in your Tanakh. I'm telling you what I do. I've got an equal right to the scriptures as you do.
I'm not very familiar with "Jews for Jesus", I do know that there are such things a "Messianic Jews", where they accept that Jesus of Nazareth was the messiah. I've met some and they were VERY impressive in their knowledge and I'm fond of them for their kindness toward me at a difficult time in my life.
You know, you seem to me to imply that the Christian's who attempt to evangelize others are evil or bad, that they "Prey" on others or "entice". IF they believe that the Messiah has come, that he was Jesus of Nazareth and that it's crucial to know this..... then their intentions aren't so dastardly. You disagree with them? Obviously, right? OK.
That still doesn't:
a: Make them wrong or bad.
b: Make their intentions wrong or bad.
I'm not trying to be rude or "in your face". But I am trying to present a Christian's side of all of this, and all I can give is the Christian side that I know.... mine. I can't answer for Baptist's, Methodists, Catholics....or anyone else, like Jews for Jesus.
I think it would be so much better if Jews and Christians had a better understanding of one another!
Your Brother
John
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When is the last time you saw a Muslim standing on a street downtown, trying to convert people?
No, it is not. Judaism is not a prosylitazing religion. We do not go forth and try to convert the world. When somebody approaches us, we actively try to discourage them. We have to flt out say no to a prospective convert before we seriously talk to them.
Jehova's Witnesses.
Yes, there are 'factions' but by and large, the interpretation of Torah is the same. You also have to keep in mind that questioning is part of our religion. Torah study in my synagogue can get quite animated discussing the meaning of some verse.
Yes we largely do because Xtian study of Torah is done with the sole purpose to justify Jesus and the New Testament.
I'll say it again, it's the general 'you', Xtians, not you, John, in particular.
And that's what we've been saying. Go nuts with your interpretation, just don't try to tell us we're wrong.
That's where semantics are getting important. Judaism by definition is messianic. I pray 3 times a day for Moshiach to come.
But, and it's a big but, as soon as you start believing that Jesus is the messiah, you are no longer practicng Judaism, in any form, you are a Xtian.
They are. they are trying to obliterate my People.
Brother John
Senior Master
I don't think that you can authoritatively say that you know the intent of Christian scholars.
I don't even read the Old Testament in order to 'justify' the New. I read it to try to understand IT. Do I find corroboration between them? Yes. Do I read one in order to better understand the other? Absolutely. Do I 'twist' anything in order to MAKE the other seem more valid? no. That would be self defeating in my attempt to comprehend truth.
Seems to me that you make some pretty damning generalizations about the inner intentions of people (ie; scholars) of another faith, yet you really dislike it when that same thing comes your way. Not very conducive to trying to understand one another.
Your Brother
John
OP
- Thread Starter
- #99
Er you didn't read those nasty attacks on me either? You know the really nasty ones where I was threatened, abused and if he could have he would have spat on my dead body? You missed them? You missed where he was banned for it?
Oh my slight personal attack was nothing, believe me.
We have Jewish organisations that will go among other Jews to help bring Torah knowledge to them but they don't go out looking for non Jews to convert. Personally I find converts a pain, I did know one many years ago, she tried to be more Jewish than we were. I talked to a Catholic priest friend of mine who agreed that converts were the most fervent and were always on your case.
Religion and faith is a very personal thing. The relationship is between G-d and you with no one else inbetween so to me whether you have that relationship or not is none of my business. Whether you believe or not, whether you have a faith or not is none of my business. There is no need (other than curiosity) for me to understand Christians or any other religion for that matter, I am commanded to treat people as fairly and as well as I can as well as keep the Law. It is not a problem to me how other people live whether they are Jewish or not, everyone has responsiblity for themselves. Free will, you see. We have free will always.
dbell
Blue Belt
In my face? About 6 months ago in Miami. Daily? In the wars, conflicts in Asia...
But then, after they continue to talk with you about conversion, begin prosylitazing and converting them to the faith. I know, well, three Rabbi, one in Miami, one in Denver, and one in San Francisco that actively talk to people about conversion.
First off, the Jehova's Witness are not Christian based. They do not feel that Jesus is the Messiah as Christians do, they feel "Christ is G_d's Son and is inferior to Him". (Quoted from their web site.)
Which tells me that the interpretation of the Torah is not the same between people in one Synagogue much less another faction...
No, I beg to differ here, CHRISTion (not Xtian, I don't down grade Jewish to some other insensible name, please don't Christian...) study of the Torah is not done with the sole purpose to justify Jesus and the New Testament. It is done to understand the rules as set by G_d (to respect your faith in not saying the word outright) in early history, which is part and foundation of our faith history. True Christian following requires that we understand it and follow it, were not changed in our "new covenant" with G_d, through Jesus.
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