Split from Christianity and Self-Defense article topic

[CanuckMA]

MattNinja,

Take your antisemitic crap somewhere else.

You are nothing but a small minded bigot at best. You are a dangerous idiot at worse.

I lost my entire family in the Shoah. You utterly disgust me.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

MattNinja appears to be a troll who's only purpose is to cause trouble, and has been banned. When he signs back up again (this isn't his first round through) he'll be banned again.

 

[geezer]

If more jewish people knew what Jesus Christ really taught then there would be peace between the arabs and jews.

The whole world, african nations, christian nations, european nations, latin nations and moslem nations would not have to put up with the shrewd thinking, foul mouthed and intrepid wickedness of the jewish state...

Whoa.

I mean Whoa...

I'm speachless. Utterly speachless. Not to defend Israel or anything, but your statements are so extreme that it would be even more absurd to waste my time and try and refute them. Shalom, bro.

 

[Tez3]

Did I say something to upset him?

Actually as Canuck will confirm this is actually quite a common occurance for us, it comes in different forms, in letters to the house, graffiti, leaflets to the synagogues and Jewish schools. Pigs heads are left on Jewish doorsteps, There's an organisation here called Jews for Jesus that preaches outside school gates to parents and children. We also have threats here from the BNP and Combat 18 the neo Nazi groups. A local Christian centre to me targets us regularly, with much more polite language but with the same sentiment, that we are to blame for our families deaths in the camps, that we are evil and should all be converted, at least they don't say killed, all this is backed up by Biblical quotes. Always the Bible is quoted in such a way that the original meaning in Jewish terms is twisted to mean something else they want it to. If we are foolish enough to try to explain our beliefs it's met with more Biblicial texts to prove what bad people we are, I wouldn't have minded if they said we were misguided or even mistaken but no, we are always evil, devils spawn even. Yeah we sacrifice children too, it says so in the Protocols of Zion so it must be true.

Yes I was being sarcastic when I said about remembering the Bible was orignally Jewish and putting your own context on it would change what was originally meant, this coming from another comment by someone that the Bible was divinely written, I don't believe it was, to me it's a history of my people along with the Laws given to us but as always with this subject conclusions were drawn, erroneously as it happens and judgements made, again wrongly but hey I don't expect much else on this subject but sorry I'm not going to stop expessing my opinion just because a couple of you has misunderstood what I said and don't like it.
Perhaps after reading the posts you may have an inkling of what certain people think is fun to subject us to and why I get really really fed up when people forget where they got the Bible from. Yet again people are quick to judge us as having evil motives. Et tu Brute.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6539415.ece

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8166173.stm

 

[CanuckMA]

I grew up with it. My parents were the sole survivors of their families. Like so many others, they entered the Shoah religious and emerged not so.

I grew up fairly secular in Montreal in the 60s. That meant I went to public French language school. That meant Catholic school. I had to hide my Jewishness. Easter was not a happy time for me.

Ironicaly, it made me who I am today. By my early teens, I immersed myself in learning my heritage and religion. If I was going to be persecuted for something, I needed to know why.

 

[Tez3]

"The traditional highway to G-d in Judaism is argument - but you have to trust to use it and not many are that secure. It is easier to suppress and be rude to those opponents who give voice to your own doubts" Rabbi Lionel Blue.

"Do not approach your fellow for a blemish that is in you." Rashi

 

[girlbug2]

Tez, as a christian I do not wish to offend you and indeed it is my hope that you see that christians by and large revere what we refer to as the Old Testament. However, since it is a part of our faith too, we have just as much right to interpret it as do you.

 

[CanuckMA]

Interpret it any way you want. But don't try to then come and tell us what you want it to mean. Too many Xtians read selected quotes of the text, in English, and try to tell us, who can read it in the original Hebrew, what the entire text means.

 

[blindsage]

Christians and Jews both intepret the text to their own ends, but as Canuck said, at least Jews can actually read the original text.

 

[dbell]

Interpret it any way you want. But don't try to then come and tell us what you want it to mean. Too many Xtians read selected quotes of the text, in English, and try to tell us, who can read it in the original Hebrew, what the entire text means.

Yet Jews (I was going to write a slang term similar to Xtians, which is also improper, but couldn't do it) are able to tell Christians what the Old and New Testaments mean? Many great Hebrew translators say murder, not kill as well. So, being someone that can read the original Hebrew, and who understands the culture and language aspects of that time, what does the text in question mean?

 

[dbell]

I think SL was referring to the fact that the commandment should read 'murder' as 'kill' is a literal mistranslation of the original, I don't think he was getting into a theological argument.

Brother John you may take the Bible literally, I don't know, but it's actually my people's history and writings, you're welcome to enjoy it of course but do remember its Jewish origins and the fact your Jesus was Jewish with Jewish thinking, mores and morals, he was also targeting his work towards Jews. The whole message thing got diverted off it's course when the Christians got hold of it not to it's betterment I should add.

Tez,

You seem to be very much anti Christian, and to me appear to be doing some of the same things you complain about coming from Christians. It is also "Christian peoples" history and writings, not just "your" people's history. As you said Jesus was "your people" as well. So he is, in essence your Jesus as well.

As you read it, what is your translation of the message, before getting diverted as you put it?

 

[Tez3]

Tez, as a christian I do not wish to offend you and indeed it is my hope that you see that christians by and large revere what we refer to as the Old Testament. However, since it is a part of our faith too, we have just as much right to interpret it as do you.

Canuck is right, interpreting it is one thing, I'm sure it can mean anything to you that you wish it too but as Canuck says you are telling us in English that it means one thing and we know that it actually means something else. It's not a religious thing as such more of a language problem that if you knew about would change how you thought about it.

Take this sentence " I was walking down the road having a fag" what would you think? or how about this one "Have you got a rubber I can borrow" I bet to you both those sentences sound rude, disrepectful even yet all the first one is about is smoking a cigarette, the other about an eraser for use with a pencil. Pencils often have rubbers on top of them. Do you see what language can do? It can change meanings and if you don't know a country or a cultures traditions its hard to intrepret correctly so how can you interpret the Bible when it has been through so many languages. the example I gave was English to English, now try Aramaic and Hebrew to Latin to French and German to English The King James Bible was translated with a political slant, the language might be poetic but a lot of the meanings have been changed. This has happened more than a few times. I don't know what version you read but I really would urge you to read it in Hebrew if you possibly can.

I've never said btw that you shouldn't interpret it, I said you should bear in mind it's Jewish origins. the original statement I was answering said it was given to man by G-d, I disagreed and said it was the history of my people and it was geared towards Jewish understanding which you can't deny it was. I said that often it was interpretated to our detriment and harm. Others chose to interpret what I said as meaning something else which just goes to show how sometimes the meanings of sentences come from the readers minds not the writer at all. We have had the Bible used against us to fuel pograms, massacres and varies other things so you must understand that often Christian interpretations aren't always welcome. Perhaps that the fundamental Muslims terrorists are using many of the selfsame texts to justify killing Christians would give you an understanding of the feeling we have about having texts quoted at us?

 

[Carol]

I think one of the elements of confusion is that many Christians believe the Old Testament of the Christian Bible encompasses Jewish law, which is not necessarily so.

To Christians, it doesn't matter as much that Torah in its entirety is included in the Old Testament, because the most important teachings of Christianity were the teachings of the Jesus. However, time had the effect of taking additional details, laws, and supporting context out of the writings of the Old Testament.

However, when (for example) Jewish folks see their 300-something Mitzvahs of the Torah condensed down to "10 Commandments". In the first century BC, Hillel described the first Mitzvah in the Talmud as "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the entire law; the rest is commentary. Go and study it.", However, the first Commandment in the Christian bible speaks about not having any other gods other the Almighty and not making an idol or any other image to be worshiped. The First Mitzvah gets mentioned, but doesn't make the list of the 10 commandments.

Isn't it understandable for Jewish folks to be a bit miffed when Christians say that "its all the same"? Its really not. :asian:

 

[Tez3]

Tez,

You seem to be very much anti Christian, and to me appear to be doing some of the same things you complain about coming from Christians. It is also "Christian peoples" history and writings, not just "your" people's history. As you said Jesus was "your people" as well. So he is, in essence your Jesus as well.

As you read it, what is your translation of the message, before getting diverted as you put it?

For goodness sake, I'm not in the least anti Christian, thats your interpetation of what I'm saying.
The Old Testament as you call it is the history of the Jewish people, there's many who would say thats all it is, not a religious book at all. It has more importantly to us, the Covenant we have with G-d. I've never read your New Testament so have no opinions on it.
The diversion is where it's been translated over and over again. If you have Google, type a short sentence in the translation part, put it to French, then German then Spanish and then Russian. Then get it to translate it back into English then see if it bears any resemblance to what you originally wrote. do this and you will see what I mean, you could add in some translations to make it more politically correct and you have what I was talking about.

Just wanted to add thank you to Carol and ....do you think it's that easy keeping so many commandments, be thankful you only have 10! I'm not even allowed to ask for money back I lent someone in case I make them feel bad.

 

[dbell]

To Christians, it doesn't matter as much that Torah in its entirety is included in the Old Testament, because the most important teachinds of Christianity were the teachings of the Jesus.:asian:

In my Christian studies, as a Catholic Friar, the whole Bible, including the Torah as written in the Old Testament, AND the Torah as kept in the Synagogues (as there are some minor differences between the two), were shown to be the most important teachings. Not just the New Testament...

Now, some of the Christian "systems" may have diverted from that, but to state that only the New Testament matters to Christians globally is wrong.

 

[Carol]

In my Christian studies, as a Catholic Friar, the whole Bible, including the Torah as written in the Old Testament, AND the Torah as kept in the Synagogues , were shown to be the most important teachings. Not just the New Testament...

Now, some of the Christian "systems" may have diverted from that, but to state that only the New Testament matters to Christians globally is wrong.

In fairness Mr. Bell, please note that I did not say that only the New Testament matters to Christians, nor did I pose that as a global statement. Its a difference in emphasis, at least among the laity.

I think what you are touching on is a big difference in the emphasis of study between Roman Catholics and Protestants, at least in the US. I think that in general, Catholics spend more time learning the laws and the lessons from the Old Testament than Protestants do. That's not a swipe at Protestants -- its just an observation. There's a reason why kids think their CCDs take forever, and adults need a year for RCIA. A lot of information, structure and history is being passed along.

 

[Tez3]

We've had enough Catholic v Protestant wars in this country in which hundreds of thousands have lost their lives, to know that there are very fundamental differences between the two faiths over interpretations of the Bible and religious doctrine.

 

[dbell]

In fairness Mr. Bell, please note that I did not say that only the New Testament matters to Christians, nor did I pose that as a global statement. Its a difference in emphasis, at least among the laity.

I think what you are touching on is a big difference in the emphasis of study between Roman Catholics and Protestants, at least in the US. I think that in general, Catholics spend more time learning the laws and the lessons from the Old Testament than Protestants do. That's not a swipe at Protestants -- its just an observation. There's a reason why kids think their CCDs take forever, and adults need a year for RCIA. A lot of information, structure and history is being passed along.

Don is fine.

My apologies, the way I read what you said, I gathered you meant the New Testament.. I stand corrected.

Yes, I would probably have to agree with the differences in the Roman Catholics and the Protestant systems being somewhat disparate at times! This being one of them...

 

[dbell]

We've had enough Catholic v Protestant wars in this country in which hundreds of thousands have lost their lives, to know that there are very fundamental differences between the two faiths over interpretations of the Bible and religious doctrine.

We have had WAY TOO MANY religious wars as far as I'm concerned, and IF these "religious people" would actually follow their faiths, there would be no war.... At least the the faith systems I've looked at in any detail if followed as "written" would not be fighting...

 

[Tez3]

We have had WAY TOO MANY religious wars as far as I'm concerned, and IF these "religious people" would actually follow their faiths, there would be no war.... At least the the faith systems I've looked at in any detail if followed as "written" would not be fighting...

The problem though is that politics and faith are sometimes too bound up together, add to that those who think only their way is correct and you've got wars. The problem we've had is that this is people from the same religion fighting, not different religions fighting each other. they were fighting because they read from the same book, the same words but see it meaning different things. They worship the same god and celebrate the same festivals but would kill each other because they each think the other is wrong about what the words mean when actually they aren't even reading a correct translation of the original.

I'm interested though as to why you think the Old Testament is also a history of Christians too? Not a snarky question btw, just wondering why you think that. The battles, wars, kings etc are definitely part of Jewish history, now whether they are of religious significance is a different argument but it's definitly the history of Israel.