Split from Christianity and Self-Defense article topic

[Tez3]

Much depends on how many worshippers there are. In the early 1980s, there were no Sikh Gurdwaras in the greater Boston area, at all.

However, there were several Indo-American Sikhs that would host worship services in their homes, and there was a group of largely western Sikhs (mostly converted) that held worship services around the city, wherever they could find room. By 1990, one group had bought an old church and remodeled it in to a temple, the other group had built a small Ashram in a more remote community. Since then, there have been one or two other temples that have opened up.

Even with the physical buildings having been built, it is not uncommon for a Sikh to host a keertan service in their home. We don't require that our religious services be lead by a priest, it can be done by that meets a certain set of qualifications (knows the prayers, has made a formal commitment akin to a baptism, etc). However, once a community reaches a certain size, it is much easier to have a building as a central gathering place, and hire a priest to lead the services.

Food is involved also Each time a service is held, one family arranges to cook a full vegetarian meal for all attendees, regardless of their faith. One of the reasons why the meals are vegetarian is so the meals do not violate the rules of other religions.

I recently trained Gatka with a Sikh martial arts group. Exhausting but great fun. Can dance a bit too now!

Whether in a house or a larger building though we all congregate don't we? It must be part of the human condition to want to worship with others perhaps?

What I'm looking for is actually more things we have in common rather than put us apart, I think we've had enough now of the differences that divide us, sometimes nastily, so perhaps a few similarities would be good. Food is good!

 

[ELLEN]

To mattninjazv: I can read the hebrew and the greek, and i would be "blocked" if i said what i sincerely believe what you've posted is all about!!!! Can you or have you read the "original"???

Anti-semitic, propoganda at it's worst, is the most "polite" i can be!!!!!
Ellen

 

[Carol]

I recently trained Gatka with a Sikh martial arts group. Exhausting but great fun. Can dance a bit too now!

Whether in a house or a larger building though we all congregate don't we? It must be part of the human condition to want to worship with others perhaps?

What I'm looking for is actually more things we have in common rather than put us apart, I think we've had enough now of the differences that divide us, sometimes nastily, so perhaps a few similarities would be good. Food is good!

Heehee...mmm...foood....

I do think its part of the human condition to want to worship with others. It can be motivating and a chance to learn something new, or hear another perspective. It can also feel rather tiresome, but I think people put the efforts in to it because they want to get something out of it.

That seems to be unique to the faithful and the skeptical alike, there are a few groups around Boston such as the Boston Atheists that are also gatherings of like-minded people.

Another commonality is that most faiths encourage people to do some sort of volunteer service whether that work is within the faith community (hanging decorations for a holiday service, helping the leader with the service, performing music, etc) or is secular service amongst the people (reading to the blind, volunteering at a soup kitchen, running a clothing drive).

I think volunteer work is more rewarding when you can do it to support a group of people. And I think many times it is more enjoyable too because you may be able to take on a task that you could not do by yourself, and that has the added benefit of building rapport.

 

[thardey]

We have potlucks one Sunday a month. Those are the days I often invite local community service reps to stop by. They eat with us after, and share their programs.

We also always have doughnuts and coffee before church. There's nothing like food to get people relaxed.

There's another church that shares the building. They meet on Saturday nights, and they always start with food. Either a BBQ, or potluck.

 

[thardey]

I recently trained Gatka with a Sikh martial arts group. Exhausting but great fun. Can dance a bit too now!

Whether in a house or a larger building though we all congregate don't we? It must be part of the human condition to want to worship with others perhaps?

What I'm looking for is actually more things we have in common rather than put us apart, I think we've had enough now of the differences that divide us, sometimes nastily, so perhaps a few similarities would be good. Food is good!

I've also noticed the difference in singing in groups, vs. singing by yourself. Something about singing spiritual truths to each other at the same time is so encouraging.

 

[Carol]

To mattninjazv: I can read the hebrew and the greek, and i would be "blocked" if i said what i sincerely believe what you've posted is all about!!!! Can you or have you read the "original"???

Anti-semitic, propoganda at it's worst, is the most "polite" i can be!!!!!
Ellen

Hi Ellen,

Welcome to Martial Talk! Please don't worry...MattNinja has been banned and won't be participating in any conversations here again.

Glad to have you with us!

 

[CanuckMA]

Here's a question! Why do people go to church/shul/mosques/temples/meeting places to worship in public?
I can't think of any religion though I expect there is one that isn't 'public'.

Judaism comes very close. Most of the daily prayers can be said in private. Only ones that don't are major affirmation of faith, Kaddish and Torah reading. And even then, no Rabbi is required.

We do it for community support. Of course we do the morning service in synagogue for the breakfast.

 

[CanuckMA]

One of the things we do at my synagogue and a few others I know is audition rabbis when we want a new one (we employ them), it must be quite awful really giving a sermon knowing everyone is judging every word. They often don't know whether to make us laugh, make us feel guilty, entertain or educate us. A good sermon though is a pleasure.

I've heard of congregations sending part of the search commitee to a prospective Rabbi's current congregation, unannounced. Can you immagine, once you've applied to a few congregations, there could be prospective employers listening to you on any given day.

 

[Flea]

It gives a whole new meaning to the term mystery shoppers! :ultracool

 

[Xinglu]

I think that regardless of what you believe in, fellowship is extremely important to we humans. It is a sense of community that we have lost with our big cities and impersonal living and work. We need the support structure and to know that those we are associating with understand our values and will do what they can to support us in upholding them. Also when hard-times do come, that community can serve as a wonderful way to rehabilitate or to gain better morale when you are just down.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

One thing to remember when looking up Jewish sites, rabbis etc for an opinion is that its going to be just that, an opinion. There is no ultimate authority who decides exactly what anything means or who can make a ruling. Theres is no equivilant to a Pope who says what is final so every thing a rabbi says is something that they themselves think which could be quite contradictory to what another rabbi says. Remember arguing about the law makes sure the law is always relevant to the times, Jewish law is a living entity not a dead one.
I think its something that non Jews find confusing, that we can have so many different views but the same beliefs.

I actually agree with you here. But, the problem is that I am asking for contradictory evidence, and none has been given.

I have never said that I am an expert on Judaism or the Jewish culture, so I can only go by the research that I discover. If I am wrong, please, show me how I am.

If nothing else, it shows that what is considered a Jew is controversial even among Jews.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

OK, i'll break my exile for this one.

I use X because I will not write the name of another god. for similar reasons thjat I will not enter a non-Jewish place of worship.

Another god? Or a word used to denote what others choose to call a god?

I aske the distinction, because if you say "another god", you are acknowleging the existence of other gods besides that of the Torah

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

"Inactive" jews are not turning their back on their culture. I know lots of "inactive" Christians that still identify as as such. Because the religion accounts for so much of their culture if they convert to another religion they HAVE at that point turned their back on their culture. They are an apostate for lack of a better word.

If all Jew's converted to Christianity, then Judaism would no longer exist. And therefore Jews would not exist. That has been the whole point this entire time. And it is the goal of Christianity to convert EVERYONE is it not?

Ok. I get that they are apostate, which is actually a generalized term not specifically related to Judaism.

But, can you show me the relevant Jewish law that states that they are no longer Jewish. Because, according to what I have read, you can be no less God's chosen people simply because you choose not to be. That would actually, philosophically speaking, give you power over God.

And, I don't see how an athiestic Jew who may or may not keep up with Jewish rites is considered a Jew, but a Christian Jew (for lack of a better description) who does maintain the rites, is not. They have both turned their back on God, so to speak.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

To be honest I think if you want you call yourself a Christian you are, same as if you call yourself an atheiest or agnostic you are. It's your personal relationship or not that you have with your god/dess that matters and you can be what ever you want to be. I really don't see how it matters to other people what you believe as long as you aren't hurting anyone.

I find this very ironic considering some of this discussion. So let me ask you, if a person considers himself or herself a Jew, are they? And for the sake of argument, lets assume that they follow Jewish rites.

 

[Xinglu]

Ok. I get that they are apostate, which is actually a generalized term not specifically related to Judaism.

But, can you show me the relevant Jewish law that states that they are no longer Jewish. Because, according to what I have read, you can be no less God's chosen people simply because you choose not to be. That would actually, philosophically speaking, give you power over God.

Not being fully versed in Halacha, I cannot point to that law nor will I attempt to. I would recommend asking a Rabbi who IS well versed in Halacha. PErhaps Tez or Canuck can, and they have far more understanding of Halacha than I since they live it everyday. The best I could do is to ask a few friends of mine and see what they have to say and get back to you on it.

And, I don't see how an athiestic Jew who may or may not keep up with Jewish rites is considered a Jew, but a Christian Jew (for lack of a better description) who does maintain the rites, is not. They have both turned their back on God, so to speak.

That's just it, one cannot be a Jew and practice Christianity without being a hypocritical Christian. Likewise, on the Jewish side, said person would be rejecting the God of whom they are chosen for a new God: Jesus. An atheist Jew is not in that same hypocritical state. That is the difference. But even if they don't preform the rites they can still practice the vast majority of Halacha since a lot of it has to do with lifestyle and living not rites/rituals.

 

[dbell]

Please, tell me how I really feel some more. Clearly you are in a better position to tell me about how I feel towards other people I haven't met.

Relax dude!! I just said it APPEARS! I didn't say you think that way, just your post and your writings give that impression to me!!

LDS :: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It's in their name even. And all the "nice" young men who come knocking on my door all way want to tell me about... wait for it... JESUS CHRIST!!! But wait... not Christian you say? I wonder what their website has to say? Their Scriptures?

Again, I said they do tend to say that LDS aren't Christians... *I* didn't say they weren't... (Although I do question it from my reading of their books, etc.)

JW :: They consider themselves Christians and it is on their website. The few I have had knock on my door, like the LDS want to talk about Jesus Christ.

The JW I speak to very clearly say they are not a Christian sect... And two of the "official" web sites I went to don't say they are Christian, one specifically said they weren't.. (Will have to try to find them again...)

Thank you for proving my point.

Not sure I did...

Furthermore: if the RCC see other Christian churches as valid paths to salvation, what is the point of being Catholic?

Didn't say that RCC sees other Christian Churches as valid paths to salvation, but do say they are heading in the general right direction... As are many other paths...

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

"Please don't try to explain to me what I believe!"

Telling a Jew what Jews believe based on a website. (Any website) is insulting. If the Jewish culture could be explained that easily, then why bother with actually studying the Talmud? Let's just look this all up on Wikipedia, and be done with it! [/sarcasm]

I haven't told anyone what they believe. What I have done is provided references as to my understanding that, if someone choses to, can potentially be refuted and then asked questions.

I would go so far as to say that, in regards to Judaism, the Jews here are far more knowledgable then me as to Judaic law. So use it to refute my sources. All I get are circular arguments in return, with no evidence to back it up.

To segway what has been said, I am asking to be taught.

And I don't mean to rant, but:

[rant]
Why are people here so damn easily insulted. I mean for god's sake. This is a section of this site which is set aside for potentially contraversial subjects. If you don't like it, go to a site that agrees with everything that you say and be happy. I get it if someone uses a racial slur, or talks about your mama. But geez, to get pissed because someone shows a source that you don't like. Freakin' get over it.
[end rant]

As far as being "Jewish" -- the question that keeps getting asked over and over again: "Why can't you be Jewish and a Christian?" has been answered more by the actions and responses, than by any specific argument. Look back over the thread as a whole and you will see it by example.

Christians, if they are willing to believe the message of Jesus, are compelled to share their beliefs with those who are interested. (Jesus made it clear several times that those who weren't interested were to be left alone.) Jesus commanded "Go, make disciples of all nations."

Part of the core of Jewish culture is to specifically not do that. (As was stated several times, and quite clearly, by Tez and Canuck.)

Therefore, if a Jew follows the teachings of Jesus and Paul/Saul, then he/she will be acting in opposition to the heritage of Jewish culture. So, you cannot be living a "Christian" life in harmony with the "Jewish" life. You would end up as a hypocritical Christian, or a destructive element to Jewish heritage. It's not about theology, it's about how you live. Maybe if more Christians understood that, they would understand the sacrifice they are asking Jews to make when they try to "help" them.

It's like being a wealthy miser in a stoic religion, it just doesn't work.

Interesting. And can you show me where in Jewish scripture / law it says this. I will show the following as an example of where you may be wrong:

... but Judaism has a long history of not only welcoming, but encouraging gentiles to become Jewish... Jews only stopped open proselytism because of pressure from Christian and then Muslim rulers, beginning in 407 C.E. when the Roman Empire outlawed conversion to Judaism under penalty of death. But the internal, theological impetus to be "a light unto the nations" (Isaiah 42:6) persisted through the centuries, albeit undercover, advancing and retreating along with Jewish fortunes in the Diaspora.

Source: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/2002/07/The-More-Jews-The-Better.aspx

However, I also did find this:

... The grounds generally adduced in favour of a Jewish proselytizing mission at this period are examined and rejected as inadequate. Goodman does not deny the existence of proselytes - indeed, they constituted a separate group within 'the Jewish commonwealth' (pg86); nor does he deny the existence of an 'apologetic' mission aimed at winning 'gentiel sympathisers' (pg 87). What he does deny is that there was an active universalist proselytizing mission at this early date.

Source: http://jss.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_extract/XLI/2/342

But even this recognizes that proslytizing is not against Jewish values.

 

[Xinglu]

Relax dude!! I just said it APPEARS! I didn't say you think that way, just your post and your writings give that impression to me!!

I keep forgetting that sarcasm tends to come off as anger in written format. I'm relaxed, really I am. Just snarky at times.

Again, I said they do tend to say that LDS aren't Christians... *I* didn't say they weren't... (Although I do question it from my reading of their books, etc.)

Fair enough, I missed that you said they, and I assumed you agreed. Shame on my assumption, bad Xing, very bad! I will punish myself later in true Dobby (yes from Harry Potter) fashion.

The JW I speak to very clearly say they are not a Christian sect... And two of the "official" web sites I went to don't say they are Christian, one specifically said they weren't.. (Will have to try to find them again...)

Well, the watchtower website is their official website and it (watchtower) does all of their publications as well. That is where I quoted all of my information from and all the links are there in the posts.

Not sure I did...

What that Christians can't agree about what a Christian is? Sure you did

Didn't say that RCC sees other Christian Churches as valid paths to salvation, but do say they are heading in the general right direction... As are many other paths...

And that is my point, they are still up that creek. No salvation. Dead branch. That really is the bottom-line isn't it?

 

[dbell]

I go to work for 8 hours and come back to 5 pages of messages here!! WOW!! Rattled up hornets nest!!

And I missed the food while I was gone!!

 

[Xinglu]

I go to work for 8 hours and come back to 5 pages of messages here!! WOW!! Rattled up hornets nest!!

And I missed the food while I was gone!!

LOL, that's okay, there are always leftovers and some dishes are better served as such