Split from Christianity and Self-Defense article topic

[Tez3]

Forgot you'd said this, thought I'd add my .02.

The J.W.'s aren't "Christian". They do not believe that Jesus is the son of God.

Amongst several other reasons, they are not a "Christian" sect.

Your Brother
John

Well you'd better tell Wikipedia, the BBC and the JWs themselves as they quote on their site.
http://www.jw-media.org/aboutjw/beliefs.htm


"Jehovah’s Witnesses are members of a worldwideChristian religion who actively share with others information about God, whose name is Jehovah, and about his Son, Jesus Christ. We base our beliefs solely on the principles found in the Holy Bible and view first-century Christianity as our model."

and
"Are you Christians?

Yes. We follow Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and put faith in the ransom sacrifice he provided for the salvation of mankind. We imitate his example in preaching and teaching and in our dealings with fellow humans. We also look forward to living in true peace on earth under his heavenly Kingdom."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/witnesses/ataglance/glance.shtml

 

[Xinglu]

Your post say otherwise about being prejudice about Christians, including this post I am quoting... At least you present yourself that way...

Please, tell me how I really feel some more. Clearly you are in a better position to tell me about how I feel towards other people I haven't met.

Actually the Protestant faiths I have experienced (Methodist, Baptist, Nazarene, Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc.) do not call Catholics non-Christians. They do LDS and JW. However, JW doesn't consider themselves Christian, not sure why you and other Jewish folks on this forum think they do? Catholics, by their faith base, do not consider non-Catholic Christians a dead branch. Some individuals may, but the faith does not. We still consider other Christian based faiths Christians...

But some of the different sects of Judaism do consider other sects to be Jewish in "race", but not in faith..

LDS :: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It's in their name even. And all the "nice" young men who come knocking on my door all way want to tell me about... wait for it... JESUS CHRIST!!! But wait... not Christian you say? I wonder what their website has to say? Their Scriptures?

JW :: They consider themselves Christians and it is on their website. The few I have had knock on my door, like the LDS want to talk about Jesus Christ.

Thank you for proving my point.

Furthermore: if the RCC see other Christian churches as valid paths to salvation, what is the point of being Catholic?

 

[Ken Morgan]

Far be it for me to throw gasoline on a smoldering fire...
But from my perspective, this is an argument about who has the best imaginary friend...

 

[Tez3]

On the subject of the JWs, they share something in common with the Jews in that many of them in Europe were sent to the concentration camps by the Nazis. While many here will not agree with their beliefs I think their individual bravery in trying to stand up to the Nazis and their subsequent suffering means we should certainly respect them. They did a great deal more than many other Christians at the time.
I've had them at my door too, I won't turn them away and have found to a person they were polite, respectful and haven't ever pushed me to convert once they understood my position.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005394

 

[Xinglu]

The J.W.'s aren't "Christian". They do not believe that Jesus is the son of God.

Really?

Then why do they contradict you?

 

[Xinglu]

Far be it for me to throw gasoline on a smoldering fire...
But from my perspective, this is an argument about who has the best imaginary friend...

Quoting George Carlin there?

 

[cdunn]

Well you'd better tell Wikipedia, the BBC and the JWs themselves as they quote on their site.

The differences in the doctrine are subtle and tricky things, revolving around the nature of the relationship between the Father and the Son, and the omnipresence of the Son. The JWs preach that Yeshua is a discrete creation of the LORD, while the orthodox faiths preach that he is not, instead being a part of the trinitarian godhood in some ineffable manner that the Catholics call a Mystery of the Faith.

So, they're heretics. Are they Christian? Depends.

 

[Tez3]

Far be it for me to throw gasoline on a smoldering fire...
But from my perspective, this is an argument about who has the best imaginary friend...

Oh dear lol! It's also an argument about whether you're allowed to have the same imaginery friend as I have!
I think mine is the best because we have the best food and the best sense of humour! (just thought I'd through some wood on the fire along with your petrol)

 

[girlbug2]

Xinglu and others, re: mormons, JWs and other religions. It is possible to believe in Jesus Christ as a historical person, even to agree with his teachings, without believing in him as Savior. the JWs and mormons (yes despite having Jesus Christ in their name) do not actually believe that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is what will save, or that he was God's one and only begotten son. It is for that reason that Christians do not regard them as Christian sects- for them, Jesus is not truly the Christ (the only way to God). Hence, they are not Christians.

 

[Tez3]

The differences in the doctrine are subtle and tricky things, revolving around the nature of the relationship between the Father and the Son, and the omnipresence of the Son. The JWs preach that Yeshua is a discrete creation of the LORD, while the orthodox faiths preach that he is not, instead being a part of the trinitarian godhood in some ineffable manner that the Catholics call a Mystery of the Faith.

So, they're heretics. Are they Christian? Depends.

To be honest I think if you want you call yourself a Christian you are, same as if you call yourself an atheiest or agnostic you are. It's your personal relationship or not that you have with your god/dess that matters and you can be what ever you want to be. I really don't see how it matters to other people what you believe as long as you aren't hurting anyone.
Ken believes that its all imaginery which I know will annoy some people lol but hey if he's not pushing anyone to join him in his belief why get upset, lifes too short and we'll all find out eventually I suspect who's right. You don't have to have a religion to be a good person and to try to do the best by people and perhaps in the end that's what counts more than anything.

 

[Xinglu]

Xinglu and others, re: mormons, JWs and other religions. It is possible to believe in Jesus Christ as a historical person, even to agree with his teachings, without believing in him as Savior. the JWs and mormons (yes despite having Jesus Christ in their name) do not actually believe that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is what will save, or that he was God's one and only begotten son. It is for that reason that Christians do not regard them as Christian sects- for them, Jesus is not truly the Christ (the only way to God). Hence, they are not Christians.

Yet another false argument.

With very little effort I was able to find this on the LDS website.

Atonement of Jesus Christ
As used in the scriptures, to atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ was the only one capable of carrying out the Atonement for all mankind. Because of His Atonement, all people will be resurrected, and those who obey His gospel will receive the gift of eternal life with God.

And from the JW website I found this.

The Scriptures describe Christ as the one who 'loves us and who loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood.' (Revelation 1:5; John 3:16) Yes, by means of Jesus' blood, we can gain full and lasting forgiveness of our sins. The apostle Paul wrote: "Since we have been declared righteous now by his blood, shall we be saved through him from wrath." That is how lasting life can be saved by blood.—Romans 5:9; Hebrews 9:14.

 

[cdunn]

To be honest I think if you want you call yourself a Christian you are, same as if you call yourself an atheiest or agnostic you are. It's your personal relationship or not that you have with your god/dess that matters and you can be what ever you want to be. I really don't see how it matters to other people what you believe as long as you aren't hurting anyone.
Ken believes that its all imaginery which I know will annoy some people lol but hey if he's not pushing anyone to join him in his belief why get upset, lifes too short and we'll all find out eventually I suspect who's right. You don't have to have a religion to be a good person and to try to do the best by people and perhaps in the end that's what counts more than anything.

Doesn't matter to me who calls them Christian, just mentioning that it depends on your definition of Christian. Do True Scotsmen put cream in their tea?

I am generally in agreement with Ken, with the addition that those who use their religion to perform or justify evil and suffering make me very, very angry indeed.

 

[Tez3]

Yet another false argument.

With very little effort I was able to find this on the LDS website.



And from the JW website I found this.

I think the truth is that because these two groups of people aren't liked by other Christian sects as they may behave or believe differently from them they've decided not to call them Christians which surely is somewhat un Christian of them!

cdunn, you've just horrified me lol NO ONE puts cream in their tea, ugh! cream would curdle in tea! Anyway a true Scotman puts whisky in his tea, honest, ask my dad.
Yep my dad is Scottish, we're Jewish and my other half is Yorkshire so bring on the jokes about being mean!!

 

[Xinglu]

I think the truth is that because these two groups of people aren't liked by other Christian sects as they may behave or believe differently from them they've decided not to call them Christians which surely is somewhat un Christian of them!

I am inclined to agree with you. To me: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. I have seen nothing from these organizations that leads me to believe they are not just another flavor of Christianity.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Do True Scotsmen put cream in their tea?

That's barbaric. My Mom's from Scotland, all my aunts, uncles, cousins and myself use milk. Though a drop of whiskey never hurt anyone...

George Carlin was a God. Oh sorry wrong thread to say that on...

 

[Tez3]

That's barbaric. My Mom's from Scotland, all my aunts, uncles, cousins and myself use milk. Though a drop of whiskey never hurt anyone...

George Carlin was a God. Oh sorry wrong thread to say that on...

Whiskey!!! :soapbox:

Good grief man, whiskey is Irish! Whisky, dear boy, whisky!

 

[Ken Morgan]

Whiskey!!! :soapbox:

Good grief man, whiskey is Irish! Whisky, dear boy, whisky!

Ah but you're forgetting, I'm Scotch-Irish on one side and Scottish on the other. I swing both ways....

 

[CanuckMA]

Only the Irish could ever get drunk enough to waste good whiskey in tea.

*ducks*

 

[Carol]

Only the Irish could ever get drunk enough to waste good whiskey in tea.

*ducks*

Oh...now THEM's fighting words!!!! You betta be hiding boy!! :lfao:

 

[Tez3]

Ah but you're forgetting, I'm Scotch-Irish on one side and Scottish on the other. I swing both ways....

There's a huge potential there for religious arguments! It's probably better you are a non believer lol! On either side of the Catholic v Protestant argument they'd rather you were a heathen than the 'opposition'.

Apart from those two factions at each others throats here, our 'native' Christian churches, the Church of England and the Catholic church here don't push to convert people anymore and we have a pleasant relationship with them probably because they too are under pressure from the imported Christian groups who consider both groups to be well not Christian!
Christianity in England has for a long while now been a genteel thing. A civilised and respectable religion for quiet people who firmly believed G-d is an Englishman with all the virtues that entails. It's part of the Establishment, being a vicar is a job for a gentleman (and now lady of course), nothing was disagreeable. However in recent years we have had groups come over from America and they disturb the peace as it were. Shouting, singing, crying even in services and aggressive 'marketing'. Very unEnglish and very disturbing for a number of reasons not just because Jews and other religions are targeted. Many of these groups also target the socially disadvantaged such as the mentally ill. The pitch is 'give up your medication, Jesus will cure you'... dangerous. There is more than a whiff of the cult about many of the groups that are coming over now. The Jews for Jesus group are Christians trying to pose as Jews to entice Jews to follow them to become 'completed' Jews. They are more than aggressive in their 'mission' actually scaring children with their message of Jews burning in hellfire etc unless they convert, this is outside Jewish primary schools (here age 4-11 year olds), they also target the old some of whom are camp survivors and of fragile health. Some old people with dementia were targeted not long ago, they pretended to the old people's home owners that they wanted to entertain by singing Jewish songs etc but started preaching, upsetting the residents. The preaching by these people is particularly loud, aggressive and extremely graphic.

The JWs and the Mormans have always come over, the Mormans expecially are nearly always American, polite young men often but they aren't aggressive in the way that the 'new' groups are.


For those that seek to 'save us' this may be interesting reading for you as the major religions at least now believe we don't need saving and that our covenant with G-d is intact.
http://www.adl.org/special_reports/jews4jesus/christian_responses.asp