Speak English Signs Allowed

[Cryozombie]

What do you call a person who speaks three languages?
A: Trilingual

What do you call a person who speaks two languages?
A: Bilingual

What do you call a person who speaks one language?
A: American

This brings to mind my issue with this topic... (the subject matter, not this thread)

Why is it when this issue comes up you often hear several people proclaiming how wrong it is to try and "force" someone to speak english if they come here... but then they insist you should learn to communicate with the immigrant? Or call you a "stupid american" for not knowing more than one language? I guess what I'm driving at is why is that appropriate, but not making a Spanish, Polish, Russian, whatever speaker learn english to get along in a country that is predominanlty english speaking?

 

[Makalakumu]

Is it an infringement of a person's rights to force them to learn a language? In a country that supposedly values an individual's liberty, is it okay to violate that liberty for the sake of conformity?

 

[theletch1]

Is it an infringement of a person's rights to force them to learn a language? In a country that supposedly values an individual's liberty, is it okay to violate that liberty for the sake of conformity?

Not at all. It's an attempt to avoid a "Tower of Babel" scenario. For a society to work there must be communication. How is one to be able to get the most from a particular society if they can't communicate with the majority of individuals within that community? By refusing to learn the common tongue of a country you are putting yourself outside of that unit and are there by hindering your ability to operate within it. Knowing, before you ever enter into that community, that you will be required to communicate in the common tongue of said community could go a long way toward easing much of the troubles that immigrants have in any country.

 

[tellner]

If I'm ever in Philly, I know where I'm going to eat.

Yep. Anyplace that doesn't have one of those schmuck-headed signs.

 

[jks9199]

On the issue of learning the dominant language of the place you live...

I run into many folks whose fluency in English is directly related to whether or not being able to speak English will benefit them. For example, I recently had a jury trial. During voir dire (the process of selecting and qualifying the jurors), the judge dismissed an Asian gentleman who rather clearly didn't speak English very well early in the process. Interestingly enough, all the rest of Asians in the pool didn't speak English very well after that... Even the one who explained how poorly she spoke English pretty well, in English. (My estimate is that was about 50/50 on how truthfully they didn't speak English.)

Of course, I have learned that, professionally, I'm an incredible language teacher. Quite often I can almost instantly impart fluency in the English language, all based on a few words from me... like "jail" or "ticket" or "arrest." Somehow, when one of those magic words come up -- the guy who couldn't speak English at all is suddenly able to curse me out quite imaginatively!

 

[Carol]

Other side of that coin, though, Carol is that many members of various ethnic groups refuse to learn english. They feel that they are betraying their heritage by doing so. We're sliding more and more away from the "melting pot" that we once were and more and more into an amalgam of different cultures that happen to cohabit the same country. In many places across this country you'll find "chinatowns" or "little Havanas" where one can spend 95% of their time and never have the need to speak english on a daily basis. When you do need to use the language you can always have someone from the neighborhood translate for you.

Example: The company that I drive for employs quite a few folks from Central America in the processing plant. Of all the hispanic folks that work there maybe 4 have a good grasp of the english language. These four have been assigned one each to different departments to act as translators for the rest. I speak spanish fairly well and get the opportunity to talk to the ones in our recieving department daily. When asked how it is that I speak spanish so well I explain that I trained at the Presidio of Monterey while in the USMC. After the usual complement regarding my language skills I'll ask if they'd help me practice my spanish if I'll help them with their english. I've only had one take me up on the offer. The rest have pointed to the "translator" for that department and said they didn't need to learn english cause "Al" was there for that.

That is perhaps the toughest cultural stumbling block to teaching ESL. Most of my students have been from the Indian subcontinent or the surrounding area. Despite having the ability to speak some Spanish myself...I have not had as many Latino students as I have south Asian or Russian students. And I think that speaks volumes for the societal/cultural issues at play.

There are successful Latino businessmen that try to reach out to the community and stress the importance of learning English...they find it just as challenging. It is very difficult to teach someone that doesn't want to learn...but a student that doesn't want to learn normally doesn't stick around very long anyway.

Nonetheless...I keep trying, so do others.

 

[navyvetcv60]

There are a whole bundle of serious issues wrapped up in the background that made a sign in a shop become such a high profile event.

The most key of all in a country founded and grown by immigration is that the infuxing people must be assimilated into the host culture; allowing Balkanisation will eventually fracture the society, to the detriment of everyone.

Language is a 'binding agent' in the process of everyday existence. Having a common tongue (no jokes please ) is much more fundamental to a functioning society than many people give it credit for.

Sukerkin, this is exactly what i would have said if i were as articulate as you. With that England is having just as big a problem with the influx of Arabs as we are Mexicans. I recently heard a report that the number one name for new born males in England is Muhammad, I'm sure it's a pretty good bet that the majority of new born "Muhammad's are Arab.

 

[tellner]

History is icky 'cause it's hard. Sometimes you find out things you didn't want to hear.

In this case it's the same old story again, just like the all-new all-animal supergangs which are worse than anything we've ever had to deal with before.

Every time a new wave of immigrants has washed up it's obvious that they're going to convert us to their heathen ways and destroy our Precious Bodily Fluids. And, of course, the first thing you notice is that they don't speak English and absolutely refuse to learn it.

Good thing it's not true.

The Elders might not. It's hard to pick up a new language in your later years.
The younger adults will even if they always speak with an accent.
The kids definitely learn the new language and do it pretty quickly.

If you look at the historical record you will see the same things said about the Italians, the Jews, the Japanese, the Chinese and pretty much everyone else. Move North of the border and they said the same thing about Russians, Poles and Ukrainians. They look funny. They sound funny. They smell bad. They stick to their own kind in little enclaves that aren't really part of our country. And they don't learn English.

Do the Italians all speak Italian seventy years on? Can you talk to a Jew in a language other than Yiddish? Do Nisei and Sansei only speak Japanese? No. Yes. No.

There's a growing Hispanic population in Portland. A lot of the older people don't have much English. Recent immigrants nod a lot and speak Spanish with each other. But over a few years they learn. Their kids speak it pretty fluently. Their grandkids like they were natives. They call themselves "Chicanos" and despise the newly arrived "Latinos" as uncultured hicks who look funny, smell funny, and don't speak English.

The Russians - we've got a lot of those, too - are the same story although more of them came over already knowing it. Still, when I go to Russian markets the signs are all Cyrillic. Everyone is speaking Russian or Ukrainian. Even fluent English speakers have to switch gears. But people don't hold it against them quite so much because they're attractively pale. They're not like Ay-rabs or Hin-doos or *shudder* Africans.

 

[ackks10]

IIRC, there was a thread about this subject around here somewhere, but I can't seem to find it. So, I figured I'd start a new one with this info.

The cheesesteak shop in PA that was the center of attention for having a "English Only" sign seems to have won the case, and it was decided that the sign was not in violation of city ordinance.



Link

Hey Mike that cheesesteak place is about 20 min, from me, we go there all the time,, when i go there the next time, i'll send you one (watch the oil):duh:

 

[Sukerkin]

Tellner, forgive me if I'm way off the mark but I'm sensing that there is a greater than usual intensity to your erudite posting on this issue?

Do you think that perhaps a focus on the supposedly (because I do not accept the view) racist aspects of expecting immigrants to learn the language and adopt the mores of the country they're entering, is hiding the more important issues that lie behind a refusal to integrate?

I apologise for using it as an introduction of the broader concepts of the problems that are lurking at the heart of much of the developed world right now. In my defense, it was only because of the quality of your posts that I picked out the topic bifurcation - feel free to PM me with much scorning for doing so because, in the end, it is overly personal to open a post the way I did (it's only because I'm a couple of paragraphs in that I don't delete the lot and start again ).

In past migration scenarios, the numbers involved were much smaller and thus the impact on the host country much less than what is occurring now.

For example, in the past year or so, nearly a million Poles have entered England - that's bordering on 2% of our population (and most of them seem to have ended up at a local town called Crewe, forming that most poisonous of cliques, an enclave).

A society cannot absorb that rate of influx and remain stable, especially when the new members do not want to 'join'. They are here for economic reasons and are actually detrimental to the economy, despite the fact that they are doing jobs that overly-aspirational 'natives' will not take, because they siphon their earnings out of the local money supply and into that of their country of origin.

However, at least the Poles make a passing attempt at speaking 'the language'. But because they are, in essence, a massive migrant workforce, a huge proportion do not attempt to integrate - after all they intend to leave after a few years.

That is the central issue - integration. If you relocate to another country and that relocation is intended to be permanent or multi-generational, then not to adjust to be become part of the culture you're joining is not acceptable. As I said earlier, that leads to Balkanisation and the fracturing of host society. This is not a problem to be underestimated (ask Yugoslavia for references as to the effects, tho' theirs had a religious as well as an ethnic component).

It is not racist to expect immigrants to alter their own mores and codes and language to fit in with where they migrate to; it is common sense. In fact to argue that it is wrong to expect it is a triumph of Political Correctness over practicality. The only two countries to suffer from this excess of PC zeal that I can see are America and Britain.

Even such countries that are regarded as very 'liberal' and open, such as Canada are not as daft as we are on this issue. I looked into emigrating to Canada a few years ago. Everything about me they loved. I was in the right age range, I had a skill set very much in demand, I had enough money to support myself for a while until I found employment ... you get the picture. Two things they didn't like. The lesser was that I wasn't married. The major stumbling block was that my French wasn't good enough - I am not kidding, that was the sole reason that my application did not 'win' enough points, despite the fact that I wanted to move to the 'English' side of the country.

I'm sounding a bit like a one-note-song now but learning the language is a pivotal part of becoming part of the society. If you don't want to be part of the society then don't go there. That sounds selfish and it is. I have seen my country become fragmented because of unbridled immigration and it irks me terribly. We had a culture and a heritage to be proud of - to be 'British' was iconic. That is no more.

The West Indian wave, the Indian wave, the Pakistani wave, the Polack wave ... all have played their part in erasing important parts of our culture. The major motivator of that has been a refusal to integrate. Blending is good, it strengthens the whole and that is what used to happen in the gradual flows of population. What made Britain 'Great' was that we were a mongrel nation of all kinds mixed together. What is happening now is the reverse of that - fragility is the consequence of PC driven Enclavism.

What is the primary sign of Enclavism? Refusing to learn the language. Now that is just the first step and there are other consequences that afflict subsequent non-integrating generations(who do speak the language but I've rattled on too long and need to shush ).

Anyone want to rent my soapbox :lol:.

 

[jks9199]

One thing that I see as different now in the USA is that there are many more "immigrants" that aren't really immigrating; they're here to work, legally or illegally, or to get schooling or whatever, and they don't plain on staying here and becoming part of the US society. They're going to make their money or get their degrees, and split. Now, I'm not at all suggesting that many of them don't end up becoming permanent immigrants over time... but that isn't their goal. In Starship Troopers, the main character notes that there is a perceptual difference between being career and being term; term troopers could talk about "when this war is over & I go home", while career troopers knew they weren't done till they'd done their 20. Something similar seems to happen in relationships; living together before marriage isn't a predictor of success in marriage. I think a part of that is the relative permanence. Well -- if you're only here to make some money or get your degree or whatever, you aren't going to try to assimilate. You're a "visitor." You don't invest emotionally in the society, so you don't learn the language. Instead of becoming an American of <whatever> heritage, you're a <whatever> who happens to be in the US. I think that in the past, this was more localized with migrant farm workers or university students, instead of the very widespread number of so-called "immigrants" (often illegal).

 

[AceHBK]

Other countries have an "Official" language. The US needs to do that, and make it English.

I have heard before this is the root of the whole problem.....America does not have a official language

I think it wouldnt be so bad if it wasnt for those people who don't want to speak english weren't so arrogant about it. U also have to think that a lot of americans feel that when they go to another country the people there should speak english.

 

[Xue Sheng]

IU also have to think that a lot of americans feel that when they go to another country the people there should speak english.

Yup, and yelling at someone in English does not help

Actually I saw that in Beijing, the funny part was that the guy had such a heavy Southern accent that I couldn’t understand him all that well when he was yelling in English.

But it is not only Americans. A friend of mines wife is from Tokyo and once when he was there his wife's uncle was trying to talk to my friend in Japanese and since my fiend did not fully understand Japanese at that time her Uncle proceeded to repeat everything he said in Japanese just LOUDER. I guess greater volume makes it easier to understand

 

[Sukerkin]

:lol: I thought only English people did that .

 

[jks9199]

But it is not only Americans. A friend of mines wife is from Tokyo and once when he was there his wife's uncle was trying to talk to my friend in Japanese and since my fiend did not fully understand Japanese at that time her Uncle proceeded to repeat everything he said in Japanese just LOUDER. I guess greater volume makes it easier to understand

I've had the same sort of thing happen with Spanish.

I'll be talking to somebody, and he's not following... His buddy will basically repeat what I say, and NOW he gets it! Don't know what was wrong with ME saying it...

 

[Xue Sheng]

:lol: I thought only English people did that .

So did I until he told me about that.

I've had the same sort of thing happen with Spanish.

I'll be talking to somebody, and he's not following... His buddy will basically repeat what I say, and NOW he gets it! Don't know what was wrong with ME saying it...

I use to do that for a friend of mine from Guangzhou but he had an accent. He would say something in English to someone and they would not understand and I would say the same thing and they would understand then they would respond to him in English and he wouldn't under stand and then I would repeat the same thing in English and he would understand. It was a pretty interesting way to hold a conversation.

 

[CoryKS]

I can't even focus on this topic. My mind keeps coming back to "mmmm cheesesteak ghlghlghlghl!!!"

 

[HebrewCossack]

I have a solution to this!!!! Change every sign, billboard, and anything else with words on it to Russian! Then everyone will be like 'wtf'?