Some thoughts about discussing the martial arts

[drop bear]

Conversations will always go better with good manners and your little snipe here did not go unnoticed. You might notice I don't post much if at all on the BJJ threads. Same for Mauy Thai and a multitude of others. Why? Because I don't have the necessary knowledge. If you look at post numbers it has taken me six years to reach 5000 posts. You have nearly 2000 in less than 12 months. How does that work? Not even Hanzou had that many posts and he has been accused of trolling.

I post where I believe I have sufficient knowledge from experience to make a contribution. A number of people post in areas they have no knowledge and pretend to be experts. Then they take offence when people call them out. If that is "knowing your place" fair enough. I know my place is not making stupid posts in the BJJ threads.

Sure, I get agitated when people who don't understand my training get it wrong then try to hang s#'t on everything I do or say. Perhaps years of training counts for something and you can tell from people's posts their level of expertise.

I think if you were to read back through the earlier posts in this thread you may well find some good advice as to how to post without getting up people's noses.

yeah about that. I have been hitting this wrong trying to use logic and evidence.

if anecdotal evidence is the main hand to play. It is going to be easier for me.

see i am a very average sport guy. I am not a pro or ranked fighter.

but having done too many years bouncing and engaged in far too much violence. I am a self defence veteran.

i am an avoidance veteran.

i am a de-escalation veteran.

and most of this forum is street.

 

[drop bear]

Of course right now i am guarding a car park. Which is why the ton of posts.

 

[Steve]

Fair point, Tony. I wish you weren't so damned reasonable.

 

[K-man]

I agree, K-man, that manners are very important. I try to be courteous, but I'm pretty sure you view my behavior as rude, at times. Conversely, I view your behavior here as rude, at times. We all get heated. We all get our feathers ruffled. And we all write things we know we probably shouldn't. It's not just Hanzou and Drop Bear and me causing conflict. It's not just the "BJJ Fanboys" or the MMA fanboys who are causing conflict.

I will accept full responsibility for my own role in the situation. Can you do the same?

OK! So you still haven't acknowledged that calling me coy was an insult and when I pointed it out to you you say that it is not an insult where you come from and deliberately use the term again. So that is accepting responsibility for your role?

I don't even know why we are having this conversation. The respect I had for you disappeared after your PM when you started attacking me and accused me of hounding Hanzou. You brought up the bit about BJJ, MMA and fanboys. Well let me say this. I have no problem with BJJ. I have no issue with MMA and I have no problem with fans of BJJ and MMA. That leaves Drop Bear, Hanzou and you.

So let's start with Drop Bear. He says what he says from his position as a bouncer. I don't have a problem with that. He trains MMA. I don't have an issue with that. He might make a comment about something and I might agree with him or I may disagree with him. That's what makes for discussion. I have no doubt he is the person he claims to be. Maybe he is trolling. So what? A lot of people do the same thing. Why did you make a statement that Drop Bear is causing conflict?

I'll move on to Hanzou. Is there a conflict? Yes. Why is there a conflict? Well Hanzou has been putting himself out there as an expert. When someone dismisses some of the world's top martial artists as ineffective or worse alarm bells should start ringing. When someone starts arguing against people who have been training for decades in an area he has no experience alarm bells should start ringing. When the guys on this forum make statements saying that he just doesn't understand and he still claims he knows better alarm bells should be ringing. When someone claims to hold a high rank in a martial art that turns out to be Shodan, alarm bells should be ringing. Now someone criticising a 9th dan person should be reasonable experienced you would think. Someone putting down a 6th dan guy, recognised as one of the UK's top martial artists, from another style should be similar rank you would assume. Normally I couldn't give a toss about rank as long as the persons heart is in the right place. Turns out Hanzou doesn't have a BJJ black belt. We don't know his rank. No wonder he was dismissive when I said one of my training partners is a BJJ black belt.

So where does this leave you? I called BS early in the piece. You sided with Hanzou and we have had a circus for months. Sometimes we can be nice and sometimes we have to call a spade a bloody shovel. This has been a festering sore for months. It's time it was lanced.

You got one thing right in your post. Sometimes we write things we shouldn't, and perhaps this is one of those times, but to be frank, I'm over it. There has been a poisonous atmosphere for too long.

 

[jks9199]

Gentle folk,

This thread has brought some important things out, and I think it's got some real potential to maybe break up some of the log jams that come up, if everyone stays civil.

I'd like to take a moment here and bring up some things about communication... Communication is a process -- and a difficult one. It's even more difficult in a medium like the web, where we cross cultures and languages (England and the US "are two nations separated by a common language", I've heard attributed to Winston Churchill.) and limited to text and a handful of images, rather than all the variances of tone, expression, body language, and other non-verbal aspects to communication. (Multiple studies have shown that non-verbal elements make up the huge -- better than 90% -- majority of communication.) I often find myself reminded of something an instructor once said in class on communication:

You may think you know what I meant, but what you heard was not what I said.​

You might think that this wouldn't matter as much in a non-verbal setting -- but I think it matters MORE! Have you ever received an email or note from someone, and found out that what you believed it said or meant was nowhere close to what the sender intended? I sure have -- and I've seen it happen plenty of times here, so anyone about to say it hasn't happened to them is mistaken. Perhaps if we can all keep some of these things in mind, we'll all be able to communicate a little better.

Of course, that's not to say that we can't all perhaps select our words a little more carefully or kindly, and avoid words or phrases that we know damn well are going to be offensive. Let me also share something that I do a lot, which I find can mitigate some of that -- just cut down on heated, off the cuff remarks. (Sometimes I do this more than I can believe!) I'll type up a response to a post, then review it -- and delete the darn thing because it's not going further a conversation. I might rewrite it... but a lot of the time, I don't. Especially if I'm responding to something that got under my skin...

And that's one last point I want to make. Folks, this is an online forum. Most of us haven't met in person. Sometimes we say things on-line that we wouldn't say face-to-face. But... why let it get to you that much anyway? Have fun, and if it stops being fun, use the Ignore list, or just take a break.

 

[Cirdan]

That is a good point jks, the limits of an internet forum as a tool of conversation is the reason why I keep my posts relatively short and simple. Going too much into detail and splitting hairs only leads to never ending cyclical arguments. That doesn`t mean you should not call someone on obvious BS however.

 

[drop bear]

There is a difference between work and high school.

in high school if you don't like someone you don't have to function around them and it is an important part of who you are.

in work if you don't like someone tough. you have to get over it.there are more important things.

the forum is probably fifty fifty. And although being nice is good. If you interact with others there is going to be conflict.

i don't think that has been addressed. In all this how to get along posting.

me i don't care. I like to fight. I like to disagree. I believe in resisted training.

and that applies to my ideas as well as my techniques.

this is sparring. You get smashed. You get tapped. Re set re adjust move on.

and before anybody thinks i am trying to advocate this becoming 4 Chan.

shades of grey.

 

[Cirdan]

No, this is not sparing, it is something known as conversation. You know the kind where you actually discuss something, listen to others and winning is not all important?

May I ask how old you are drop bear?

 

[drop bear]

No, this is not sparing, it is something known as conversation. You know the kind where you actually discuss something, listen to others and winning is not all important?

May I ask how old you are drop bear?

40.

sparring is a conversation.

how old are you?

 

[drop bear]

And i am not the first guy to come up with that idea by the way.

MAMA Martial Arts Mommy Archives Sparring is a Conversation Not a Monologue

 

[Cirdan]

40.

sparring is a conversation.

how old are you?

Does not mean the reverse is true. Punch me in the face or tap me out in the dojo and I`ll love it, using the same tactics when posting here can be quite rude to say the least. Do you see what I am getting at?

My age and other info is in my profile like it always has been.

 

[drop bear]

Does not mean the reverse is true. Punch me in the face or tap me out in the dojo and I`ll love it, using the same tactics when posting here can be quite rude to say the least. Do you see what I am getting at?

My age and other info is in my profile like it always has been.

no i don't. What is the difference. Why isn't punching people in the face ruder than disagreement?

and it would have been easier just to type you age than explain where it is.

 

[Cirdan]

no i don't. What is the difference. Why isn't punching people in the face ruder than disagreement?

and it would have been easier just to type you age than explain where it is.

Hey you are the one who said this is sparing, not me.

Even simpler if you had found the info right where it is supposed to be. Maybe you should take the time to update your own profile?

 

[drop bear]

Hey you are the one who said this is sparing, not me.

Even simpler if you had found the info right where it is supposed to be. Maybe you should take the time to update your own profile?

sorry i don't understand your explanation.

how is a disagreement ruder than face punching?

or did you mean something else?

 

[Cirdan]

sorry i don't understand your explanation.

how is a disagreement ruder than face punching?

or did you mean something else?

this is sparring. You get smashed. You get tapped. Re set re adjust move on.

Ok I`ll try do keep it simple.

If you do the equivalent to "smashing" people on this forum in a discussion and attempt to make them "tap out" people just might take offense.

Polite conversation and having an open mind might be a better idea than the sparing mentality you describe. Occationally you might need the equivalent of a punch to cut trough a lot of BS but that should not be the rule.

 

[drop bear]

Ok I`ll try do keep it simple.

If you do the equivalent to "smashing" people on this forum in a discussion and attempt to make them "tap out" people just might take offense.

Polite conversation and having an open mind might be a better idea than the sparing mentality you describe.

why?

it seems if i don't accept i may get smashed in conversation. I am more likely to take offence.

like if i get punched in sparring and take offence.

 

[Cirdan]

why?

it seems if i don't accept i may get smashed in conversation. I am more likely to take offence.

like if i get punched in sparring and take offence.

I don`t expect to get smashed in a conversation. If this happens to you a lot maybe you should ask why.

 

[drop bear]

I don`t expect to get smashed in a conversation. If this happens to you a lot maybe you should ask why.

i know why. Because I test my ideas against resistance. Sometimes my ideas are wrong. Sometimes my ideas are not supported well enough.

if you don't expect to get smashed in conversation. What is your reasoning behind that?

 

[Cirdan]

i know why. Because I test my ideas against resistance. Sometimes my ideas are wrong. Sometimes my ideas are not supported well enough.

if you don't expect to get smashed in conversation. What is your reasoning behind that?

I don`t expect to be smashed too often in conversations because I try to express myself honestly. If I have ideas I will present them as such rather than hit people over the head with them.

No offense, just giving a direct answer.

 

[Steve]

I don`t expect to get smashed in a conversation. If this happens to you a lot maybe you should ask why.

Why do you continue to smash people, then? You don't seem to see how aggressive you are in your posts.

And this is the second poster you are calling dishonest. In what way do you think drop bear is dishonest? I don't agree with everything he posts, but I find his candor and willingness to speak plainly very honest and refreshing. I Have not seen anything in his posts that suggests that he exaggerates the truth or lies about his experience.

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