SOKE or not to SOKE that is the Question

[loki09789]

No, I'm not. I'm afffiliated with those who are though. Thats why I ask. Loki hit the direction I was headed.

Everyone is quick to assume that they are all wrong in their agenda "based" on other peoples words. Many of these people are the humblest people you could meet and large numbers of people, including some on MT have sought advice from these same people.

Whose "WORTHY" of casting the first stone?

I saw the same type of 'all about the Money' commentary when the issue of 'Shaolin' and the Priests at the temple appealing to the government for some form of trademark/copyright protection over its use. Things like this don't always have to be about false legitimacy or money. It is entirely possible that these types of things are motivated by a sincere desire to establish some quality control/verfication standards in an unregulated market.

Any Joe can go out there now and call himself "SOKE JOE of the DON'TKNOWSQUATEEDO" system of self defense and there isn't a lickin' thing that can keep him from doing it. He can wear a black belt without a license. No one can stop him by law. Now, he may not stay in business long, but in the time a Carpet Bagger like that had his shingle up, he can do a lot of damage to the reputation of martial arts in the minds of people that don't know any better.

If run with integrity and standards, Soke Councels can be voluntary way to maintain standards.

 

[tshadowchaser]

We really only hear about the approved/endorsed applications sent to sokeship councils. Does anyone know how many applicants are turned down by these groups? If so, based on what criteria are applicants/curriculums endorsed/rejected? If there is rejection, is councel provided to let the applicant know what needs to be improved?

Not many are turned down if the money is paid and they meet certian requirements.
One of the sokeship conciles requires:
A person be of 5th degree inat least one art
that a copy of their highest rank be sumitted
That they demonstrate (for about an hour) what they do

Troubles with these requirements are:
Often no one checks to see if the certificate is ligit
How can you show in one hour that you have created someting new
Your still buying that title it is not being given for recognition of what you have done

 

[James Kovacich]

Not many are turned down if the money is paid and they meet certian requirements.
One of the sokeship conciles requires:
A person be of 5th degree inat least one art
that a copy of their highest rank be sumitted
That they demonstrate (for about an hour) what they do

Troubles with these requirements are:
Often no one checks to see if the certificate is ligit
How can you show in one hour that you have created someting new
Your still buying that title it is not being given for recognition of what you have done

Now are you lumping the Sokeships all into one bucket as equals?

I pulled this disclaimer off of one. :uhyeah: :uhyeah:

DISCLAIMER REGARDING GRANDMASTER MEMBERSHIP
Unlike many martial arts organizations which give or charge for gradings in styles which they have no recognized authority to do so. The World Head of Family Sokeship Council DOES NOT make or grant grandmaster status. The WHFSC only accepts those who are RECOGNIZED grandmasters within the world martial arts community.

We acknowledge that the titles of "Professor" and "Doctor" are terms used in academia to describe those who have earned degrees through accredited Colleges & Universities. Our use of the term, however, is based on the HISTORICAL USE of the terms WORLDWIDE to describe high ranking martial artists who have earned that title through their respective martial art. Though some of our members actually have an academic degree, the titles listed for the most part are in reference to the historical use of the terms in martial arts".

And heres some referances of theirs.

Grandmaster Gary Alexander
Hanshi George Anderson

Grandmaster Lou Angel

Dr. Jerry Beasley

Kyoshi Sid Campbell

Master Jackie Chan

Art Davie, UFA

Grandmaster Rorion Gracie

Grandmaster Stephen K. Hayes

Grandmaster Joseph C. Hess

Michael James, Publisher for CFW Enterprises

Professor Wally Jay
Grandmaster Lee Kam Wing
Grandmaster Chiu Chi Ling

Grandmaster Harold Long

Grandmaster Kang Rhee

Mestre Joselito Santo

Master Jeff Speakman

Taika Seiyu Oyata

Grandmaster Tino Tuiolosega

Maestro Peter Urban

Grandmaster Ron Van Clief

Grandmaster Jurg Ziegler

And heres a list of their Grandmasters on file with biographies.

Aiello Jerry

Alexander George

Arus Emeric

Arvanitis Jim

Balas Ronald

Benko James

Byrne John

Campbell Sid

Cantore Gerardo

Dacascos Al

Devlin Doug

Dill Gary

Dye David

Edwards Robert

Emperado Adriano

Geraneo Ray

Goh Austin

Griffin Kalaii

Haralson Kent

Hatsumi Masaaki

Hayes Stephen

Hilton Larry

Holder Philip

Jay Wally

Ji Han Jae

Juchnik Bruce

Kaihewalu Solomon

Katsaitis Vasilios

Kuoha Sam

Lacy James

Little Phil

Long Bob

Macleod Foster

McEaddy Dan

Ngo Quynh

Oyata Seiyutaika

Pan Qing Fu

Pearson Sam

Pellegrini John

Retuinskih Aleksander

Sanchez Frank

Siringano Peter Jr.

Therien John

Tosh Dan

Urban Peter

VanClief Ron

VanDonk Richard

Von Rolbeck Hanns

Verkerke Daniel

Warren Harris

Wasniewski Gary

Wilson Glen

Yamaue Keido

Ziegler Jurg

And heres the Grandmaster requirements.


All applicants must be at least 35 years of age with a minimum of 20 years in the arts and hold a LEGITIMATE ranking of 9th or 10th dan or the equivalent (Head or Hanshi of system). Applicant must also be well known within the martial arts community with students and / or established schools nationwide/ Internationally.

All applicants must receive endorsement by at least one member of this Council in order for membership to be entertained. The fact that one is a legitimate grandmaster of 9th or 10th dan ranking or the equivalent does not constitute automatic acceptance by this Council.

By submitting this application you hereby give permission to the WORLD HEAD OF FAMILY SOKESHIP COUNCIL to investigate your background. If any information is proven to be false after membership is issued, the WHFSC has the right to revoke and cancel your membership.
Please include copies of all pertinent certificates in which you claim rank, as well as your present certificate of ranking along with bio. and photo. This information may be sent via e-mail or snail mail to: WHFSC 6035 Ft. Caroline Rd. Unit 22,
Jacksonville, Florida 3227



Heres the Masters division.

Masters Division
"NOTE: Master ranking is typically 5th dan and up in Japanese arts and 4th dan and up in Korean arts. If you are from another art or system, please specify the normal "Master grade" for your art along with your present ranking"....You must be graded a Master Instructor in a legitimate system in order to apply for membership. Thank you."

After acceptance of application, successful candidates will be required to provide a Curriculum
Vitae along with copies of all rank certificates in Styles which you claim masters rank in.
This information may be sent via e-mail or snail mail to: WHFSC 6035 Ft. Caroline Rd. Unit 22,
Jacksonville, Florida 32277

By submitting this application you hereby give permission to the WORLD HEAD OF
FAMILY SOKESHIP COUNCIL to investigate your background. If any information
is proven to be false after membership is issued, the WHFSC has the right to revoke
and cancel your membership. If application is promising candidates must provide a $35.00
fee which is re-newable yearly or $75.00 for lifetime membership with your Curriculum.
This initial fee will be refunded minus a $20.00 processing fee if your application is rejected.

 

[tshadowchaser]

not realy I said

Not many are turned down if the money is paid and they meet certian requirements.
One of the sokeship conciles requires:

notice I said ONE not all.

Now as for that impressive list of names let me say that the late GM of Sikaran was approched many time to add his name to such lists and turned them down. It wasn't until about a year befor his death that he even considered becomeing a member of a hall of fame and he never wanted to have a sokeship. SOME of these sokeship organisations add names to their lists without even consulting the person named, NOT ALL SOME

Now if some of the names listed on those you named where to give a person a two or 5 day test to see if the persons ability and knowledge had inded created a new style not many people would question it. But I doubt you ever see even three of the better known names at any sokeship review board

 

[RRouuselot]

I noticed my teacher’s name on there.

I guess he might qualify…..I mean he has only trained for 60 plus years. His name has been added to several Soke-doke councils without his permission/knowledge of it.

Namely the “World Soke Head of family something or other”. I asked them to take his name off since he had no connection to them and they replied “ we put his name on our list because we recognize him as a Soke”….funny thing is he doesn’t want to be one. Who the hell are they to “recognize” anyone…more like they wanted to justify their organization and make it sound as if they are legit by sticking some serious names on their site. “Name value” folks….that is what all this crap is about lately….



There are some legit names on there but some are a little more than dubious….make that most.

 

[RRouuselot]

Now are you lumping the Sokeships all into one bucket as equals?

Why not? They are all an equal bunch of crap anyway.
I have yet to see any non-Japanese that is qualified to be a "Soke", let alone know the proper meaning of the word.
Are Americans that starved to identify with a culture that they really need to live vicariously through another culture to fulfill some identity crisis?
That is SAD if you ask me.
I never talk about my rank, there is no need to, hell my own students didn’t even know my rank until my teacher promoted last October at a seminar.




If these Soke-doke knuckle heads trained in the dojo half as hard as they run around promoting each other the might have some skill.

 

[RRouuselot]

There are very few Real Soke's who aren't Japanese. It's a Japanese title, much misunderstood, much abused, and most often bought through some suposed "council" to make the person seem more important than they really are.

Exactly! For westerners to use the title "Soke" is just another way for the “paper tigers” in martial to pad their resumes and make themselves seem superior or important.

I know of one man that was in line to be a legit head of a style and given the title of Soke but turned it down because he wanted the ryu ha to stay in Japan.

That would be Meik Skoss-Todaha Buko Ryu.

Meik lived and trained in Japan for decades, diligently studied several martial arts (Aikido, karate, iiado, etc) and received some decent rank in most of them…he is regarded as pretty much a “stud” in the Japanese martial arts world .

Not someone you want to screw around with…. he can definitely walk it like he talks it.

 

[Aikia]

AKJA,
For the record I have never endorsed the World Head of Family Sokeship council. Frank Sanchez, the owner did not ask for my permission to attatch my name. Even though some of the people on the list are greatly admired, I am not inclined to engage in such titles as Soke. With rank comes age. Being on the high end of the rank levels may seem attractive. Once you get there you discover that youth is always better than high rank. The joy is in the journey and not the destination. Best advice is be glad you are not a Soke!
Jerry Beasley

P.S. Hello Michigan TKD. I have been on a different site. I see you are still very active.

 

[James Kovacich]

not realy I said
notice I said ONE not all.


Now if some of the names listed on those you named where to give a person a two or 5 day test to see if the persons ability and knowledge had inded created a new style not many people would question it. But I doubt you ever see even three of the better known names at any sokeship review board

The first question that I asked you on the last post was if you were lumping them all together.

How do you give a 2-5 day test to a 75 yearold? :uhyeah:

You'll also note that they (that one I posted) stated they didn't give out grandmasterships. They ONLY accepted "recognized" grandmasters within the martial community. And they had to be INVITED.

No selling there like some beleive and have implied.

 

[James Kovacich]

I noticed my teacher’s name on there.

I guess he might qualify…..I mean he has only trained for 60 plus years. His name has been added to several Soke-doke councils without his permission/knowledge of it.

Namely the “World Soke Head of family something or other”. I asked them to take his name off since he had no connection to them and they replied “ we put his name on our list because we recognize him as a Soke”….funny thing is he doesn’t want to be one. Who the hell are they to “recognize” anyone…more like they wanted to justify their organization and make it sound as if they are legit by sticking some serious names on their site. “Name value” folks….that is what all this crap is about lately….



There are some legit names on there but some are a little more than dubious….make that most.

Would it be you SENIOR who see's it differantly. His thank you letter is posted expressing his thanx in your Sensei's name!
http://www.bushido.org/~whfsc/

 

[James Kovacich]

Why not? They are all an equal bunch of crap anyway.
I have yet to see any non-Japanese that is qualified to be a "Soke", let alone know the proper meaning of the word.
Are Americans that starved to identify with a culture that they really need to live vicariously through another culture to fulfill some identity crisis?
That is SAD if you ask me.
I never talk about my rank, there is no need to, hell my own students didn’t even know my rank until my teacher promoted last October at a seminar.




If these Soke-doke knuckle heads trained in the dojo half as hard as they run around promoting each other the might have some skill.

So your a 5th now. Is your Gi full of patches now? :uhyeah:

 

[loki09789]

So is all rank meaningless? Is all recognition only a way of greasing palms/building reputation alliances/stroking egos? Is there not a single organization that can legitimately recognize and endorse a martial artists hard work and contribution to an art in a way that makes it distinct and credible?

Come on people! For a bunch of martial artists that talk about character development/cooperation/harmony, I am reading a lot of character bashing/factionalism/disharmony and some heavy assumptions about motives.

I am waiting for the 'you must be affiliated with' comments but honestly I don't care about that. I DO care about the hypocracy and lack of respect for our fellow artists that have earned their place in martial arts.

One hour on the floor to DEMONSTRATE YOUR CURRICULUM is enough time if it is more than just a dog and pony show IMO and you are skilled as a presentor/instructor as well as a martial artist.

Most people are hired based on a resume/interview process that lasts about an hour at a pop (after Many hours of resume screening/selection to narrow down the list to the appropriate interviewees) AND contact with the references listed AND a check to verify the information on the documents. Besides, if the person in some cases has to be INVITED, that means that preliminary checks have been made, recommendations from respected people have been made so that hour is not the only form of 'interview' that has taken place.

Assumptions about actually checking backgrounds...how does anyone really know who is and is not checking other than assumptions? I would be interested in seeing a sourced list of rejections instead of some vague "most are accepted" and an assumed lack of background investigations....

If we are going to have a discussion where the integrity/wisdom/character/motives of people is going to be questioned, lip service will not do. I will need some substantiation on claims. Lead by example please.

How many here would be willing to summarize their statements to the faces of some of these board members. I know I would really have to get my ducks in a row before I walked up to Wally Jay, GM R. Presas or some of the other names associated with these organizations and say: "Your only doing it for the money. You are not demonstrating any character in this and you don't have any credibility to evaluate whether someone's resume and curriculum is 'soke' worthy."

 

[Andrew Green]

So is all rank meaningless?

Yes

Is all recognition only a way of greasing palms/building reputation alliances/stroking egos?

Recognition doesn't neccessarily mean rank. If someone I respect says "Person x is a good fighter", well, that means something to me. A lot more then if they say "Person x is a x-dan"

Is there not a single organization that can legitimately recognize and endorse a martial artists hard work and contribution to an art in a way that makes it distinct and credible?

Nope, for that to happen the industry would have to be regulated, and it isn't. Whether or not regulation would be a good thing is debatable and largely depends one who gets to do the regulating.

Come on people! For a bunch of martial artists that talk about character development/cooperation/harmony, I am reading a lot of character bashing/factionalism/disharmony and some heavy assumptions about motives.

Get with the times, sportsmanship is dead. Trash talking is the only way to play

 

[MichiganTKD]

Aside from the fact that these organizations tend to be a bunch of self congratulating yahoos, what possible reason do I have for joining? Assume I am a Kukkiwon/WTF-recognized Master or Grandmaster Instructor. There are only three types of recognition I would find flattering:

1. Recognition from my Instructor

2. Recognition from my Tae Kwon Do colleagues and peers

3. Recognition from the Kukkiwon Council-the highest ranking WTF Instructors in the world.

Although I respect Karate, aikido, kung fu (assuming it is a legit style and not some half-baked mish mash put together by some joker looking for recognition), their recognition means nothing to me. I certainly don't need to explain or defend myself to them. And the idea that their signatures on my certificates somehow makes them legit is laughable at best. How would a jujitsu or kung fu instructor's signature on a Tae Kwon Do certificate make it legitimate. Only my Instructor and the Kukkiwon Council has that authority.

I noticed a couple of things on the Soke member's list:

Jackie Chan. Gifted actor? Certainly. Soke? Highly doubt it.

Peter Urban. Promoted himself to 10th Dan. And why is he referred to as "Maestro"?

But hey, if you want to join these organizations because you need the ego trip, have at it. Just looking at the names on the lists makes me not want to join.

 

[loki09789]

Yes


Recognition doesn't neccessarily mean rank. If someone I respect says "Person x is a good fighter", well, that means something to me. A lot more then if they say "Person x is a x-dan"


Nope, for that to happen the industry would have to be regulated, and it isn't. Whether or not regulation would be a good thing is debatable and largely depends one who gets to do the regulating.


Get with the times, sportsmanship is dead. Trash talking is the only way to play

I would disagree with you on every single point.
1. Rank means something...it may vary from curriculum/org. but it does mean something - it doesn' mean EVERYTHING by any means.

2. Rank IS recognition: It is the recognition of an artist's demonstrative ability to meet a certain standard of excellence established by the curriculum and upheld by the practitioners....at least that is what it means in my organization. We all know rank/promotions that are questionable, but that doesn't mean all rank is questionable.

3. Yup, if we could spend less time killing sportsmanship and really were putting competition/ego/differneces aside and could agree on the character/philosophy aspects that are supposedly in MA training.

4. If sportsmanship and character are dead...we killed it with stuff like this.

 

[Andrew Green]

I would disagree with you on every single point.
1. Rank means something...it may vary from curriculum/org. but it does mean something - it doesn' mean EVERYTHING by any means.

Sure, but that is internal to an organization. As a whole it means nothing.

2. Rank IS recognition: It is the recognition of an artist's demonstrative ability to meet a certain standard of excellence established by the curriculum and upheld by the practitioners....at least that is what it means in my organization. We all know rank/promotions that are questionable, but that doesn't mean all rank is questionable.

Again, you are looking within one organization, not at the whole. Unless you know who the recognition came from and why, it means nothing.

3. Yup, if we could spend less time killing sportsmanship and really were putting competition/ego/differneces aside and could agree on the character/philosophy aspects that are supposedly in MA training.

You're right, let's dump this whole rank thing, all rank seems to do is flare up egos and politics. Let's just train and play nice.

btw - it is supposedly in all those other sports too

4. If sportsmanship and character are dead...we killed it with stuff like this.

You mean rank? Yes, that was one part... but again, looking at the bigger picture, it's got very little to do with martial arts. I'd say pro-wrestling has done more damage to sportsmanship in martial arts then anything done by martial artists...

 

[loki09789]

1. Sure, but that is internal to an organization. As a whole it means nothing.


2. Again, you are looking within one organization, not at the whole. Unless you know who the recognition came from and why, it means nothing.


3. You're right, let's dump this whole rank thing, all rank seems to do is flare up egos and politics. Let's just train and play nice.

btw - it is supposedly in all those other sports too


4. You mean rank? Yes, that was one part... but again, looking at the bigger picture, it's got very little to do with martial arts. I'd say pro-wrestling has done more damage to sportsmanship in martial arts then anything done by martial artists...

1. Nope, if I learn that the term "Sensei" means that a person is a teacher, I respect that title/rank even though it may not be part of my organization. If I meet a BB in TKD, I will respect that rank and the person that wears it. Respect doesn't have to mean I will take orders from them - just that I won't assume it isn't credible.

2. No I am not, what I AM looking at is the behavior of RESPECT between organizations and how the giving of respect reflects on the character of the individual giving it EVEN WHEN YOU DON"T KNOW. In some cultures this is a simple matter of hospitallity/civility. It doesn't have to be blind or absolute. You can 'respectfully' disagree/decline/remove/disengage/disassociate...I think your confusing 'respect' with 'gullible' or 'blind obedience' or something like that.

3. Actually, I have said many times, that rank is a powerful curriculum tool in organizing the progression of training within a system and marking clear short and long term goals for students and instructors. Beyond that, as a tool for reputation/authority over others/ego stroking/politics, I think it is a waste of time. Abuses of rank and what it really means have created many problems.

4. Bull, to put it gently . Outside influences can only take affect internally if the people 'inside' let it. The damage/accountability is internal. I don't blame rap music for drugs or murder and I won't blame WWE for the lack of real character in MA.

 

[James Kovacich]

If these Soke-doke knuckle heads trained in the dojo half as hard as they run around promoting each other the might have some skill.

WHO promoted each other at the The World Head of Family Sokeship Council?

 

[James Kovacich]

AKJA,
For the record I have never endorsed the World Head of Family Sokeship council. Frank Sanchez, the owner did not ask for my permission to attatch my name. Even though some of the people on the list are greatly admired, I am not inclined to engage in such titles as Soke. With rank comes age. Being on the high end of the rank levels may seem attractive. Once you get there you discover that youth is always better than high rank. The joy is in the journey and not the destination. Best advice is be glad you are not a Soke!
Jerry Beasley

P.S. Hello Michigan TKD. I have been on a different site. I see you are still very active.

I beleive you Jerry, but they view the letter that you wrote as an endorsement. I know Wally Jay wrote one too and I know how you feel about him.

 

[James Kovacich]

I noticed a couple of things on the Soke member's list:

Jackie Chan. Gifted actor? Certainly. Soke? Highly doubt it.

Peter Urban. Promoted himself to 10th Dan. And why is he referred to as "Maestro"?

But hey, if you want to join these organizations because you need the ego trip, have at it. Just looking at the names on the lists makes me not want to join.

Jackie Chan is NOT a listed Grandmaster. He is listed on the referance list. You mis-read. :uhyeah:

Maestro Peter Urban was certified 5th Degree in Japan by Gogen Yamaguchi in the '50's. When Urbans Goju became USA Goju it was standing alone and not controlled by Japan and with Urban as headmaster of his own line. He was free to grow his organization as he saw fit. He had more years in the martial arts than ALL of us. Nobody here has the right to question him. He IS the father of ALL Goju American systems. Yamaguchis son came to the USA a decade later. :uhyeah: