Social Media Naysayers

[JowGaWolf]

Okay. The only viable solution I see is... we get me and @isshinryuronin to learn and perform an XMA kata, and @Steve and @drop bear to learn and perform a traditional kata. We film them, then post and share! @JowGaWolf can be adjudicator.

How is this a solution I hear you ask? Well okay, it doesn't really solve anything, but heck it'd be so fetch seeing that!

ha ha ha. I read this and the only thing I can say is "What did I miss?" lol I was just happy to see that I wouldn't have to learn XMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Because a XMA guy is more likely to be able to do a traditional kata, than a traditional kata guy able to do a XMA kata.

Kata in general is easy. Which is why so many people are able to do it. I'm not saying that kata won't be require hard work, because it will. But in comparison to application it's easier. We have millions of examples of this. People who can do kata but can't fight using the techniques in kata.

Using XMA kata in a fight would be 100 times more difficult to apply in a fight than traditional kata. It would be cool if someone could pull it off, but I think all of us have past the age of XMA capable.

 

[drop bear]

Kata in general is easy. Which is why so many people are able to do it. I'm not saying that kata won't be require hard work, because it will. But in comparison to application it's easier. We have millions of examples of this. People who can do kata but can't fight using the techniques in kata.

Using XMA kata in a fight would be 100 times more difficult to apply in a fight than traditional kata. It would be cool if someone could pull it off, but I think all of us have past the age of XMA capable.

I think the lessons acrobatics teaches you about how to move your body are better for fighting that the techniques learned in kata.

Because kata doesn't really reflect fighting too closely anyway.

 

[Cri70]

Not limited to the "skill" part, though, as one can have a martial frame of mind as well, which leads to the "intent" part. A baseball player has skill in swinging a bat. If his intent is to hit a ball, there is no "martial." If he uses it to hit a person (hopefully in self-defense) it now becomes martial in intent and application.

Yes, that's why I wrote explicitly combat intent. ;-)

You have hit many of the bases of what "art" is. But I think you are leaving out a major part - technique. IMO, art is infusing one's skillful technique with these qualities you listed. The technique is the vehicle thru which these qualities are expressed. Whether brushstrokes, usage of light and color, picking guitar strings, or spinning a long stick, one's technique must blend with the creative/spiritual side. Together they create "art."

XMA, I think fits the bill here. It is art - but just barely a "martial art."

A good point, and it goes to show why we read different things in the same word.
Which is just fine, otherwise where would be the fun in our little chats?

To me technique is far more part of the "skill". For example, there's a lot of skill in - say - operating an industrial machine or plastering a wall. But it does not make it art. Having a skill implies that you are proficient and use the technique of the trade.

"Art" to me is really about the part that is not-functional: you own the skill (and so you're reasonably proficient in the techniques involved) but you add more for the pleasure that it gives to your or others. To the point that some arts (for example the figurative ones) have reached the point where they are completely disjoint from any functional root - abstract painting, sculptures and the likes are the most obvious case.

So you use your skill - whatever it is - not only for its functional results, but also for aesthetic or otherwise pleasurable aims.

A kata is "simply" a string of illustration of combat principles. It's very functional. It's only if we chose to add non-functional components - for example we take pleasure in producing a certain type of movement, in reaching a specific type of position, in achieving a certain type of sound etc, but also attribute a spiritual/calming/meditative aspect that it becomes an art. It's the same with say calligraphy. We take a very functional thing and we decide to focus on non functional aspects - it becomes an art.

Not familiar with the term "XMA" but I guess it means stuff like the video? A display of incredible skill for the sheer pleasure of it? Then I totally agree - it's definitely art. And since the combat intent (as much as I can see) may be absent or minimal, I also agree that the "martial" part is thin: it essentially relies on the fact that you use weapons, costumes and movement that look like they might apply in a combat context (bit like action movies ).

It's important to say that, to this day, there is no one shared definition of "art" - in any sense. So the above is just the meaning that I place into the word. Every time we talk about art, it's good to clarify our meaning to make sure we don't talk past each other.

 

[Cri70]

Because kata doesn't really reflect fighting too closely anyway.

Which idea of fighting do you have?