Social Media Naysayers

[JowGaWolf]

Okay. The only viable solution I see is... we get me and @isshinryuronin to learn and perform an XMA kata, and @Steve and @drop bear to learn and perform a traditional kata. We film them, then post and share! @JowGaWolf can be adjudicator.

How is this a solution I hear you ask? Well okay, it doesn't really solve anything, but heck it'd be so fetch seeing that!

ha ha ha. I read this and the only thing I can say is "What did I miss?" lol I was just happy to see that I wouldn't have to learn XMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Because a XMA guy is more likely to be able to do a traditional kata, than a traditional kata guy able to do a XMA kata.

Kata in general is easy. Which is why so many people are able to do it. I'm not saying that kata won't be require hard work, because it will. But in comparison to application it's easier. We have millions of examples of this. People who can do kata but can't fight using the techniques in kata.

Using XMA kata in a fight would be 100 times more difficult to apply in a fight than traditional kata. It would be cool if someone could pull it off, but I think all of us have past the age of XMA capable.

 

[drop bear]

Kata in general is easy. Which is why so many people are able to do it. I'm not saying that kata won't be require hard work, because it will. But in comparison to application it's easier. We have millions of examples of this. People who can do kata but can't fight using the techniques in kata.

Using XMA kata in a fight would be 100 times more difficult to apply in a fight than traditional kata. It would be cool if someone could pull it off, but I think all of us have past the age of XMA capable.

I think the lessons acrobatics teaches you about how to move your body are better for fighting that the techniques learned in kata.

Because kata doesn't really reflect fighting too closely anyway.

 

[Cri70]

Not limited to the "skill" part, though, as one can have a martial frame of mind as well, which leads to the "intent" part. A baseball player has skill in swinging a bat. If his intent is to hit a ball, there is no "martial." If he uses it to hit a person (hopefully in self-defense) it now becomes martial in intent and application.

Yes, that's why I wrote explicitly combat intent. ;-)

You have hit many of the bases of what "art" is. But I think you are leaving out a major part - technique. IMO, art is infusing one's skillful technique with these qualities you listed. The technique is the vehicle thru which these qualities are expressed. Whether brushstrokes, usage of light and color, picking guitar strings, or spinning a long stick, one's technique must blend with the creative/spiritual side. Together they create "art."

XMA, I think fits the bill here. It is art - but just barely a "martial art."

A good point, and it goes to show why we read different things in the same word.
Which is just fine, otherwise where would be the fun in our little chats?

To me technique is far more part of the "skill". For example, there's a lot of skill in - say - operating an industrial machine or plastering a wall. But it does not make it art. Having a skill implies that you are proficient and use the technique of the trade.

"Art" to me is really about the part that is not-functional: you own the skill (and so you're reasonably proficient in the techniques involved) but you add more for the pleasure that it gives to your or others. To the point that some arts (for example the figurative ones) have reached the point where they are completely disjoint from any functional root - abstract painting, sculptures and the likes are the most obvious case.

So you use your skill - whatever it is - not only for its functional results, but also for aesthetic or otherwise pleasurable aims.

A kata is "simply" a string of illustration of combat principles. It's very functional. It's only if we chose to add non-functional components - for example we take pleasure in producing a certain type of movement, in reaching a specific type of position, in achieving a certain type of sound etc, but also attribute a spiritual/calming/meditative aspect that it becomes an art. It's the same with say calligraphy. We take a very functional thing and we decide to focus on non functional aspects - it becomes an art.

Not familiar with the term "XMA" but I guess it means stuff like the video? A display of incredible skill for the sheer pleasure of it? Then I totally agree - it's definitely art. And since the combat intent (as much as I can see) may be absent or minimal, I also agree that the "martial" part is thin: it essentially relies on the fact that you use weapons, costumes and movement that look like they might apply in a combat context (bit like action movies ).

It's important to say that, to this day, there is no one shared definition of "art" - in any sense. So the above is just the meaning that I place into the word. Every time we talk about art, it's good to clarify our meaning to make sure we don't talk past each other.

 

[Cri70]

Because kata doesn't really reflect fighting too closely anyway.

Which idea of fighting do you have?

 

[drop bear]

Which idea of fighting do you have?

The not moving around like kata kind.

Often involving more than one person.

 

[Cri70]

The not moving around like kata kind.

Often involving more than one person.

Right. Remember that kata is encoded. "Moving around" is a representation - typically for the direction your facing for the next move.

Karate is for close-range, clinch-based unarmed combat. A karate fight looks nothing like japanese kumite, boxing or MMA; it's more of a grappling match, at least initially, and that's what katas are about (and btw: they are not intended to teach you. Teaching is done by a teacher. Katas are kind of homework exercises).

As for more than one person, no system can do something specific for that, other than tell you that positioning is critical, you gotta move around and be fast as a *****, and aim to disable each person as definitively as possible so that he doesn't come up again and you have a chance to focus on the next.

Which is why most katas generally illustrate two-pace ideas: get close/crash in into your opponent, imbalancing him (by breaking his posture and removing his barrier limbs), and then either dislocate a joint (or break one if you can) or go for the head. Mostly the first, since knocking down someone with one strike is very, very hard.. but people in pain don't stand up, or are less of a danger if they do.

But there's no magical art or skill that can make you prevail over three people attacking you at the same time with baseball bats.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think the lessons acrobatics teaches you about how to move your body are better for fighting that the techniques learned in kata.

Because kata doesn't really reflect fighting too closely anyway.

I don't know about the acrobatics. If that's the case the gymnastics are training the best fighters in the world. While the best fighters in the world cannot do the acrobatics that are taught at XMA.

If you look at acrobatics, then BJJ should have the worst fighters ever. I took gymnastics as a kid and was still doing crazy flips well into highschool. None of that stuff helped me with fighting footwork. The activities that probably had more impact on my fighting ability was
1. dodge ball
2. American Football
3. Basketball
4. Tag.

The closer to fighting the footwork is the more it will transfer to fighting. XMA is geared towards entertainment and the footwork reflects that.
To me XMA is no different than this

The other thing is that XMA practitioners don't claim to be fighters (that I know of). The ones I met do not have the assumption that they are fighting.

Kata reflects technique born from application. It is not meant to reflect fighting. Sparring handles the fighting component. If you want to learn how to do Jow Ga techniques, then you don't need sparring. If you want to learn how to apply Jow Ga techniques, then you don't need sparring. But if you want to learn how to use Jow Ga techniques in a fight, then sparring will be required.

 

[Steve]

I don't know about the acrobatics. If that's the case the gymnastics are training the best fighters in the world. While the best fighters in the world cannot do the acrobatics that are taught at XMA.

If you look at acrobatics, then BJJ should have the worst fighters ever. I took gymnastics as a kid and was still doing crazy flips well into highschool. None of that stuff helped me with fighting footwork. The activities that probably had more impact on my fighting ability was
1. dodge ball
2. American Football
3. Basketball
4. Tag.

The closer to fighting the footwork is the more it will transfer to fighting. XMA is geared towards entertainment and the footwork reflects that.
To me XMA is no different than this

The other thing is that XMA practitioners don't claim to be fighters (that I know of). The ones I met do not have the assumption that they are fighting.

Kata reflects technique born from application. It is not meant to reflect fighting. Sparring handles the fighting component. If you want to learn how to do Jow Ga techniques, then you don't need sparring. If you want to learn how to apply Jow Ga techniques, then you don't need sparring. But if you want to learn how to use Jow Ga techniques in a fight, then sparring will be required.

Just a quick comment. The kids I’ve known personally who do XMA definitely consider themselves to be athletes and martial artists. They are serious about it and work really, really hard to be very good at what they do.

Regarding whether they consider themselves to be fighters or not, I don’t know. But my personal opinion is that the comments about “combat” in this thread are a red herring. But that’s because I don’t think most martial artists are training for combat (even when they think they are), and even fewer prioritize combat over other things.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just a quick comment. The kids I’ve known personally who do XMA definitely consider themselves to be athletes and martial artists. They are serious about it and work really, really hard to be very good at what they do.

Regarding whether they consider themselves to be fighters or not, I don’t know. But my personal opinion is that the comments about “combat” in this thread are a red herring. But that’s because I don’t think most martial artists are training for combat (even when they think they are), and even fewer prioritize combat over other things.

I agree with you on this. This is why I say that I have never talk to anyone who does XMA who claimed to be a fighter. I have talked about good martial artists in terms of XMA. I have met many people who claim to be good in Kung Fu not because they were fighters but because they were good at the forms.

The reason you probably don't know if they consider themselves to be good fighters because that's not where there goal is. Being a good fighter doesn't help them achieve what they are doing. To be honest being a good fighter is irrelevant to XMA. I don't know anyone who trains it that has delusions about their fighting abilities. They have a better grasp than many Kung Fu folks out there who train forms and make claims that they can beat anyone even though they don't train fighting.

I would also not "put words in XMA's mouth" by saying that their acrobatics make fighting footwork easier. I have never hear anyone from XMA in person or in video make that claim or come close to it. If I was going to say anything like that, I would say that such comments are more fitting for Kung Fu than anything else. I like Kung Fu but I also know that not everyone trains Kung Fu for fighting.

Many of the people who do XMA usually have their eyes on something bigger than fighting. From what I understand, this is where many top XMA practitioners show up

This is where many Wushu performers end up

Not everyone has the goal to be fighters and it doesn't make the hard work that they put into it less demanding.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know about the acrobatics. If that's the case the gymnastics are training the best fighters in the world. While the best fighters in the world cannot do the acrobatics that are taught at XMA.

If you look at acrobatics, then BJJ should have the worst fighters ever. I took gymnastics as a kid and was still doing crazy flips well into highschool. None of that stuff helped me with fighting footwork. The activities that probably had more impact on my fighting ability was
1. dodge ball
2. American Football
3. Basketball
4. Tag.

The closer to fighting the footwork is the more it will transfer to fighting. XMA is geared towards entertainment and the footwork reflects that.
To me XMA is no different than this

The other thing is that XMA practitioners don't claim to be fighters (that I know of). The ones I met do not have the assumption that they are fighting.

Kata reflects technique born from application. It is not meant to reflect fighting. Sparring handles the fighting component. If you want to learn how to do Jow Ga techniques, then you don't need sparring. If you want to learn how to apply Jow Ga techniques, then you don't need sparring. But if you want to learn how to use Jow Ga techniques in a fight, then sparring will be required.

athleticism is important in most physical endeavours and is transferable.

 

[JowGaWolf]

athleticism is important in most physical endeavours and is transferable.

Athleticism is important only if the activity is similar to physical activity that needs to be done. None of what you show here applies to the activity needed for:
1. Swimming
2. BMX racing
3. Snow or water skiing
4. Baseball
5. Running
6. Fencing
8. Golfing
9. Rugby
10. Basketball
11. Men's Rings in Gymnastics
12. Pole Vault.
13. Soccer
14. Lacross
15. Cricket
16. Tai chi
Being athletic is one specific activity does not mean that your skills will transfer into others areas. The student's that have the most trouble with Jow Ga Kung fu are Boxers. Their athleticism for boxing makes Jow Ga Kung Fu more difficult for them than for someone who has never done boxing. I used to see it all the time. Boxers come to learn kung fu and lack the ability to have their mind make their body move like Jow Ga. I might have a video of a Boxer in one of Jow Ga classes and he struggled big time. His mind just didn't have that connection with his body yet to do new movements. Most boxers quit because they become disheartened. They thought the same way you think. It seems like they would have an easy adjustment, but they didn't.

Athleticism helps but not in the way you think it does. I used to think the same thing too, until I did Jow Ga for the first time. I knew what I saw, but my brain didn't know how to make my body move that way.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Their athleticism for boxing makes Jow Ga Kung Fu more difficult for them than for someone who has never done boxing. I used to see it all the time. Boxers come to learn kung fu and lack the ability to have their mind make their body move like Jow Ga.

My experience also. Boxers are the toughest guys to teach karate to. Most are just "too tight" in body and mindset to undo ingrained boxing biomechanics. Though I think boxers with a more relaxed style, like Ali or Sugar Ray Leonard, would have an easier time.

Among the easiest beginners to teach were dancers (modern or exotic). They have fewer "bad" habits to break and have great overall control of their bodies and motion.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My experience also. Boxers are the toughest guys to teach karate to. Most are just "too tight" in body and mindset to undo ingrained boxing biomechanics.

This was the same at my last school. Their biggest difficulty was this which made everything else difficult.

I had 2 dancers. There movemwas good but couldn't dial in power to save there lives. Both had difficulty with using movement with power. This is common in kids who don't understand hitting something hard.

I see this in others who dance and do Jow Ga. Their movement was light and not rooted. Dancers have to be light on their feet. Fighters have to be rooted. Dancers have great footwork for dancing but dancing footwork isn't the same as fighting footwork. if all my students had to do were forms then the dancers would have an advantage for copying movement.

 

[drop bear]

Athleticism is important only if the activity is similar to physical activity that needs to be done. None of what you show here applies to the activity needed for:
1. Swimming
2. BMX racing
3. Snow or water skiing
4. Baseball
5. Running
6. Fencing
8. Golfing
9. Rugby
10. Basketball
11. Men's Rings in Gymnastics
12. Pole Vault.
13. Soccer
14. Lacross
15. Cricket
16. Tai chi
Being athletic is one specific activity does not mean that your skills will transfer into others areas. The student's that have the most trouble with Jow Ga Kung fu are Boxers. Their athleticism for boxing makes Jow Ga Kung Fu more difficult for them than for someone who has never done boxing. I used to see it all the time. Boxers come to learn kung fu and lack the ability to have their mind make their body move like Jow Ga. I might have a video of a Boxer in one of Jow Ga classes and he struggled big time. His mind just didn't have that connection with his body yet to do new movements. Most boxers quit because they become disheartened. They thought the same way you think. It seems like they would have an easy adjustment, but they didn't.

Athleticism helps but not in the way you think it does. I used to think the same thing too, until I did Jow Ga for the first time. I knew what I saw, but my brain didn't know how to make my body move that way.

Not according to conditioning coaches.

They just take the most efficient methods.

You want to get strong for martial arts? Lift weights.
Want to get fit for martial arts? Run.

And so on.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You want to get strong for martial arts? Lift weights.

This is false. Lift all the weights you want, and Kung Fu will make you feel like all of that weightlifting waste of time

Want to get fit for martial arts? Run.

This is also not true.

Both of these things will make you fit but may not necessarily put you in shape to do martial arts. This is why so many TMA old heads here will tell people, don't worry about trying to get in shape for Martial Arts.


This guy looks like he's been lifting weights. Lets see how he does. His response? "This is so much harder than you guys think" Well maybe he's just a goof?

Lets try this guy

People always think they are just going to "get in shape for kung fu" then they take it and learn that nothing they did prepared them for what they were doing.

I've seen it many times where fit people come into a kung fu class and they become exhausted on the basics.

As physically challenging my Jow Ga Kung Fu work out is. None of that helped me with BJJ when I went to the MartialTalk meet up. It didn't surprise me because I know that we are only strong with the movement that we train. I gassed out on the warmups because it was new movement to me that I never train. A person can lift all the weights they want but if the movement they are making strong is not the same movement used in the new activity, then that person will still be weak and none of that other conditioning will translate.

The movement that you don't train will be the movement that will be weak.

 

[drop bear]

This is false. Lift all the weights you want, and Kung Fu will make you feel like all of that weightlifting waste of time

This is also not true.

Both of these things will make you fit but may not necessarily put you in shape to do martial arts. This is why so many TMA old heads here will tell people, don't worry about trying to get in shape for Martial Arts.


This guy looks like he's been lifting weights. Lets see how he does. His response? "This is so much harder than you guys think" Well maybe he's just a goof?

Lets try this guy

People always think they are just going to "get in shape for kung fu" then they take it and learn that nothing they did prepared them for what they were doing.

I've seen it many times where fit people come into a kung fu class and they become exhausted on the basics.

They probably were not that fit.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You want to get strong for martial arts? Lift weights.
Want to get fit for martial arts? Run.

And so on.

My approach is different. First, I decide which MA skill that I want to train. I then decide which equipment that I want to use to "enhance" my MA skill.

For example, if I want to develop "arm push with leg pull", I'll use cane bundle.

- Do I get strong by doing that? May be! But there are better ways just to get strong.
- Do I get fit by doing that? May be! But that's not why I do it.

This training equipment can only enhance my "arm push with leg pull" technique.

 

[marvin8]

This is false. Lift all the weights you want, and Kung Fu will make you feel like all of that weightlifting waste of time

This is also not true.

Both of these things will make you fit but may not necessarily put you in shape to do martial arts. This is why so many TMA old heads here will tell people, don't worry about trying to get in shape for Martial Arts.


This guy looks like he's been lifting weights. Lets see how he does. His response? "This is so much harder than you guys think" Well maybe he's just a goof?

Lets try this guy

People always think they are just going to "get in shape for kung fu" then they take it and learn that nothing they did prepared them for what they were doing.

I've seen it many times where fit people come into a kung fu class and they become exhausted on the basics.

As physically challenging my Jow Ga Kung Fu work out is. None of that helped me with BJJ when I went to the MartialTalk meet up. It didn't surprise me because I know that we are only strong with the movement that we train. I gassed out on the warmups because it was new movement to me that I never train. A person can lift all the weights they want but if the movement they are making strong is not the same movement used in the new activity, then that person will still be weak and none of that other conditioning will translate.

The movement that you don't train will be the movement that will be weak.

Professional MMA fighter Volkanovski: no forms, S&C, drills, bagwork, padwork, sparring, etc.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Professional MMA fighter Volkanovski: no forms, S&C, drills, bagwork, padwork, sparring, etc.

If you only care about fighting, may be solo form training can only slow you down.

Many years ago in Taiwan, there was a guy who could not find any MA teacher to teach him. He tied a coconut with 2 ropes on 2 trees. Every day, he just punched that coconut bounced back and forth between 2 trees. A year later, he competed in Taiwan national Kung Fu tournament. Nobody could get away from his head hunting. He won Kung Fu champion title that year.

When I was 11, my brother-in-law taught me 1 open hand form and 1 pole form. One day I got into a fight. I didn't know how to use techniques in the MA form that he taught me. I complained to him. He stopped teaching me any more forms and forced me to train "1 step 3 punches" for the next 3 years. That was the best 3 years MA training I ever had.

It's so funny. Today, if I want to find some students to spend 3 years in "1 step 3 punches" training, I cannot find even 1 student who is willing to go through that.