Social Media Naysayers

[Steve]

I have absolutely no parameters to say anything about being good or bad as I don't know anything on how to handle a stick, but the guys is damn athletic! The first jump alone would fit ok in a martial art movie. The sheer ability with the stick is very good, at least to my ignorant eyes.

I completely agree.

I do have some questions - why one should jump that way (I mean, if the point is to retreat, can't you can just walk back and it's less effort?) or swirl the stick that way (maybe the idea is to confuse the opponent?) or move it back and forth one's body - I was under the impression that the business bit should always be towards your opponent.

Yeah. I don’t know what the purpose is. But then again, we don’t do that kata, so we can’t possibly understand the bunkai. It takes a long time to develop that kind of deep understanding.

It kinds reminds me of the nunchuk masters who are incredible at tricks, as opposite to actually whacking someone with a nunchuck that requires much simpler movements overall (but often they are good _also_ at the simpler movements, of course. Showoff is fun and by itself means little). But as said, I dont know anything about sticks

It’s a kind of confirmation bias. it might be flashy and also effective. But we can’t tell just by looking at it. Might just be crap. Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Steve]

This guy is very good at what he's doing, except it's not MA. I agree also that there's intent, but the intent is to entertain and exhibit his dexterity. Most of the moves have no power nor combat application - indeed, they are counterproductive to combat. Many of the moves leave him extremely vulnerable without guard or immediate access to strike or block and make no sense in a combat scenario. His performance is 90% entertainment. At this he was very skilled.

Not martial arts? I disagree. At least as the term “martial art” is applied broadly to describe combat adjacent activities where folks learn martial like skills.

Just to be clear, I understand this is a well tread path. I was just building on drop bears post lightheartedly. But I’m frankly a little surprised that this kind of gate keeping still exists. Don’t get me wrong. I’m sure the specific standards for judging the kata are different, as you demonstrated above. I just don’t think either standard has much to do with “combat.”

and to be clear, I’m not down on kata. I’m all for it. All of it. Metaphorically speaking, It’s like if a bunch of people believed that the only real dancing was ballet and ballroom, and dismissed breakdancing. i have heard things to this effect.

I’m an inclusive guy. I also think tae bo is a martial art, as much as tai chi.

 

[Nachi]

Here's an example:

https://fb.watch/vg83IALUZn

Do you think he's unworthy of his black belt, as so many people in the comments are suggesting? Or are these guys just a bunch of haters?

Facebook keeps offering me videos from this particular page.
So I have seen quite a few and usually, I just feel like facepalming when watching them. They apparently post a lot of videos of people at this type of competition where they just do kata for the fancy stuff, they exaggerate Kiai to an extreme degree and while some of the people clearly have a lot of skill, I find it really hard to watch, because from my TMA background, I just cannot comprehend it.
Some of these competitors have amamzhing acrobatic skills - a lot of jumping kicks, etc., where they obviously put a lot of effort, but their "ordinary" techniques, like punches, etc. are lacking in power, focus and kime.

People keep commenting negatively to these and I honestly don't like them, either, just because the performer's focus and purpose is completely different to what I am trying to see in MA and it makes me a little sad that sometimes really talented people would compete in this way.

This particular video you posted looks like an exception among the others from that particular page. It is not very flashy and the kiai is even normal. I would think the guy deserves his black belt, but I wonder to which degree people are already fired up from seeing the other videos at this site. If that could be an influence for the hateful comments.

And yes, sadly, people tend to hate on other martial arts. Maybe different arts have different focus that doesn't coincide.

 

[drop bear]

You mean like gymnastics? Like dancing competitions? Like figure skating? Like The Chelsea Flower Show? Like Japanese calligraphy competitions? Like Dressage? Virtually every competitive endeavour relies on subjective judging from somebody else and, other than competitions where person attempt to permanently damage each other’s brains into unconsciousness or inflict unbearable pain into submission, everything is judged.

Yep. Like all those things

 

[Steve]

Facebook keeps offering me videos from this particular page.
So I have seen quite a few and usually, I just feel like facepalming when watching them. They apparently post a lot of videos of people at this type of competition where they just do kata for the fancy stuff, they exaggerate Kiai to an extreme degree and while some of the people clearly have a lot of skill, I find it really hard to watch, because from my TMA background, I just cannot comprehend it.
Some of these competitors have amamzhing acrobatic skills - a lot of jumping kicks, etc., where they obviously put a lot of effort, but their "ordinary" techniques, like punches, etc. are lacking in power, focus and kime.

People keep commenting negatively to these and I honestly don't like them, either, just because the performer's focus and purpose is completely different to what I am trying to see in MA and it makes me a little sad that sometimes really talented people would compete in this way.

This particular video you posted looks like an exception among the others from that particular page. It is not very flashy and the kiai is even normal. I would think the guy deserves his black belt, but I wonder to which degree people are already fired up from seeing the other videos at this site. If that could be an influence for the hateful comments.

And yes, sadly, people tend to hate on other martial arts. Maybe different arts have different focus that doesn't coincide.

Aren’t you kind of just hating on other martial arts for most of this post?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Not martial arts? I disagree. At least as the term “martial art” is applied broadly to describe combat adjacent activities where folks learn martial like skills.

There is a chasm between "martial art skill" and "martial like skill." You see it as a crack in the sidewalk. In that extreme bo kata video there were more baton twirling moves than combat moves: twirling. throwing staff into the air. catching behind back. rolling it around the neck. acrobatics. etc. I saw many of these same moves in this summer's Olympics, rhythmic dance competition!! None of this is "martial."

 

[Steve]

Yep. Like all those things

This is like gymnastics fans saying rhythmic gymnastics isn’t “real” gymnastics.

There is a chasm between "martial art skill" and "martial like skill." You see it as a crack in the sidewalk. In that extreme bo kata video there were more baton twirling moves than combat moves: twirling. throwing staff into the air. catching behind back. rolling it around the neck. acrobatics. etc. I saw many of these same moves in this summer's Olympics, rhythmic dance competition!! None of this is "martial."

I mean, you’re making my point for me.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I mean, you’re making my point for me.

Which is?

 

[Gyakuto]

are lacking in power, focus and kime.

Yes, it’s the lack of kime (focus). In this video, the participant never definitively finishes any of his strikes in his hast to move onto the next one. He rarely roots his feet to the ground so when he punches his rear leg’s knee collapses in a flicking manner rather than locking forward to drive the punch forward.

Again, he’s not awful and I suspect the instruction to ‘slow down a bit’ and ‘finish your techniques completely’ is all it’d take to make his kata look really good.

 

[Nachi]

Aren’t you kind of just hating on other martial arts for most of this post?

Yeah, well, I am being honest that I don't like those martial arts, or rather, the focus on the competition. But what I was trying to say as well is that I have respect and admiration for the skill like the acrobatics. What I don't like is the theatre around it. Crazy looking faces when shouting kiai for 5 seconds, etc. (usually after a technique with their hands down, so it is not used to add power to the technique, but to look cool, instead) - mostly the stuff that doesn't really have anything to do with their skill and (to me) undermines the seriousness of the presentation of what they had obviously worked so hard for. Yeah, I suppose I am a hater of that.

But I do believe it is partly because my viewpoint is different. If this is the MA I started with, maybe I would see things differently. So I am also trying to say that I know my feelings about it might be a bit unfair, but I just don't like that style of competition.

This is an example.

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From what I can tell, her flying kicks are awesome. I am far from that level, so I can't see faults there, and honestly admire her skill.
But I can tell the hand and elbow strikes lack tension, focus and grounding, so my thougths are that that is not her focus, and I would honestly like the performance much more if she slowed down a little and the techniques were not so rushed and were timed and finished properly instead. I can't help but feel the purpose is to look as fleshy as possible as opposite to useful. That is what I don't like.

 

[drop bear]

 

[Prince_Alarming]

To be fair, I too have observed that whenever somebody posts a video of people doing awesome martial arts tricks there's always somebody saying 'that dosn't work on da thtw33t', or otherwise doing them down. These things usually aren't intended for combat, they're about something more life affirming, just developing and enjoying the human body. It's like those people who like to say that wrestling is fake. Dude, we know. And it's the height of bad manners to point it out.

 

[Hot Lunch]

To be fair, I too have observed that whenever somebody posts a video of people doing awesome martial arts tricks there's always somebody saying 'that dosn't work on da thtw33t', or otherwise doing them down.

Questioning whether or not something will work "on da skreetz" is okay, in my opinion, if they're demonstrating a technique that they're suggesting can be used in a real fight. But if they're doing a performance to entertain a crowd, I agree, they either need to enjoy the show or keep scrolling.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Oh, sure. If they're makling representations as to its effectiveness in real combat, yes.

 

[Nachi]

To be fair, I too have observed that whenever somebody posts a video of people doing awesome martial arts tricks there's always somebody saying 'that dosn't work on da thtw33t', or otherwise doing them down. These things usually aren't intended for combat, they're about something more life affirming, just developing and enjoying the human body. It's like those people who like to say that wrestling is fake. Dude, we know. And it's the height of bad manners to point it out.

Yeah, you're right. I personally find those tricks like the acrobatics really cool, like I said. Probably because I couldn't imagine myself doing them, so I find them difficult. It is just from my point of view, I dislike some things about those performances. Sort of the drama surrounding it. At least I perceive it as drama.
Some compettiors look like they think themselves really dangerous and/or take themselves way too seriously and I dislike that attitude, even if it may be just a part of that peformance - especially since there are things that could be improved. And there are always things to improve - for everyone. That is also why I don't like that attitude. I find it just unnecessary.

But I wouldn't try discouraging anyone from doing that kind of sport. Just do what you like as long as it aligns with your goals and/or you have fun. It's just that I dislike it, so I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't like changing the forms I learned to be suited for competition, so I don't compete.
I love karate, and there are people who don't. But that's fine, too. If someone doesn't like it, I am not getting offended. Not everybody has to like everything, right?

And as was in the OP, when people are hating on masters, maybe it is from the opposite point of view. Maybe those are people who are learning stuff from different perspective or with a different goal in mind, who don't understand the principles that the masters have polished to that level and cannot appreciate it.
I cannot always see all the intricacies the masters have worked hard on, either, because I don't understand them. But I wouldn't comment on them. But from some comments I've seen on karate people performing in some videos, it is obvious even long time practitiones from a completely or even only slightly different style would judge unfairly. Like thinking something is a mistake or nonsense, when it is clearly done with purpose and for a reason.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I'd just like to refer to a song at this point.
"I fiddlesticking hate the comments, why do you feel you have to talk..."

 

[Steve]

Which is?

Case in point:

This guy is doing a bo kata. There’s a clear narrative, there’s intent, and he’s definitely committing to his movement and technique. And by whatever standards he is training for, I think he is considered “good”.

But I’m pretty sure most people here think he’s “bad”, even though he appears to check several boxes.

 

[Steve]

Yeah, well, I am being honest that I don't like those martial arts, or rather, the focus on the competition. But what I was trying to say as well is that I have respect and admiration for the skill like the acrobatics. What I don't like is the theatre around it. Crazy looking faces when shouting kiai for 5 seconds, etc. (usually after a technique with their hands down, so it is not used to add power to the technique, but to look cool, instead) - mostly the stuff that doesn't really have anything to do with their skill and (to me) undermines the seriousness of the presentation of what they had obviously worked so hard for. Yeah, I suppose I am a hater of that.

But I do believe it is partly because my viewpoint is different. If this is the MA I started with, maybe I would see things differently. So I am also trying to say that I know my feelings about it might be a bit unfair, but I just don't like that style of competition.

This is an example.

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From what I can tell, her flying kicks are awesome. I am far from that level, so I can't see faults there, and honestly admire her skill.
But I can tell the hand and elbow strikes lack tension, focus and grounding, so my thougths are that that is not her focus, and I would honestly like the performance much more if she slowed down a little and the techniques were not so rushed and were timed and finished properly instead. I can't help but feel the purpose is to look as fleshy as possible as opposite to useful. That is what I don't like.

All kata involves some theatrics based on some subjective, aesthetic criteria. I'm proposing that folks distinguish between their own aesthetic preferences, and whatever practical benefit may be derived from the activities. Or said more simply, the benefits gained from your preferred version of kata and the XMA version of kata (or any other version that may exist) are functionally the same. The trappings look different, but that's just bias and preference.

 

[Steve]

Questioning whether or not something will work "on da skreetz" is okay, in my opinion, if they're demonstrating a technique that they're suggesting can be used in a real fight. But if they're doing a performance to entertain a crowd, I agree, they either need to enjoy the show or keep scrolling.

Ultimately, I guess I'm more able to accept alternatives because I think all of it indirectly helps in a real fight, and none of it directly helps. And all of it is, at the root, grounded in performance that is being evaluated by someone based on some subjective standard.

To the point of this thread, people don't like it when folks criticize THEIR preferred version of the show. AND, they almost always feel empowered to criticize OTHER PEOPLE'S version of the show, because... well, it's clearly different. "I don't like it when you say my show is crap. But come on, yours really IS crap, so it's completely different!" We literally have examples of this in this thread.

 

[isshinryuronin]

To the point of this thread, people don't like it when folks criticize THEIR preferred version of the show. AND, they almost always feel empowered to criticize OTHER PEOPLE'S version of the show, because... well, it's clearly different. "I don't like it when you say my show is crap.

To be clear, I liked the "show." I also liked the shows Lion King, The Godfather, and Fraiser. That doesn't mean they're MA.

Rewatching that bo video, I saw MAYBE 10% MA related moves that could conceivably be effectively applied in combat. That leaves a minimum 90% that has nothing to do with fighting. I think this disparity is more than enough to classify the show as something other than MA. An entertaining exhibition of dexterity and skill to be sure, but not MA. My "preferred" version of a kata is one that is related to "martial" art.