Social Media Naysayers

[Hot Lunch]

 

[JowGaWolf]

 

[windwalker099]

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Missed the point

"Fighters" train according to their attributes...
In most cases weight, reach and fight records are matched...
BB weighed in at 300lb / 136 kg... lot of mass for someone to contend with.
Most of his adversaries weighing in at 220 and 250

Professional fighter's train to fight other fighters of equal attributes..

 

[JowGaWolf]

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I actually have found it to be the other way around. People who don't look atheletic often surprise people how atheletic they are.

My biggest inspiration and why I wanted to play basketball better was due to a guy in his mid 50's taking us teenagers to school on the court. Dude was highly skilled and very grey. He struggled but he still beat the brakes off us. lol. He had an unstoppable hook shot.

 

[windwalker099]

Fighters do not condition for "health"
they condition for fighting, regardless of health concerns...

CMA of old was much the same,
fighting was the primary concern, not health.

Of course losing could be said to be very un-healthy...

In front of Hai Tung Monastery, Wong set up an elevated stage known as a leitai to accept challenges from any and all comers. Over the course of eighteen days, he defeated over one hundred and fifty challengers. “Either the challenger was maimed or killed,” noted Chin. “He never let one challenger leave his school without injury.

 

[JowGaWolf]

People will always amaze me and shift my reality on what I thought I knew. Things that we thing are the exception are often shown to be more common than we thought.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Do you think. fighting is a healthy sport ?
Fighters condition for "health"

No and yes.

So fighting is not healthy. The purpose is to damage the other person without being damage. The only health part about fighting is being able to avoid the damage and stop the other person from attacking you.

Fighter's conditioning is something different. This can be done without the damage. Sparring can be done without the damage. Actually if I had the guts I would make a sparring fitness class. But because people don't know how to act I won't be doing it. One of most physically enjoyable workouts I have is sparring. But you have to do this with someone who isn't about winning. Your sparring partner has to be the type of person who will tell you to take a break when you reach your cardio limit. Tired punches are sloppy punches and only rest will improve them.

CMA of old was much the same,
fighting was the primary concern, not health.

For the most part it's still the same. It's just people focus more on the training aspects and not the fighting aspects. It's like training boxing and doing everything a boxer does except the sparring and fighting. That is still health activity.

 

[drop bear]

People who do aerobics are fit. My brother is fit he does cross state races, cycling races, muay thai, wrestling, BJJ and marathons. He's built like a Spartan. He does a few minutes of some of my kung fu drills and he feels it. A shuffle drill that I do is enough to burn those muscles that he doesn't use.

You are welcome to try my kung fu conditioning workout.

Every kung fu guy who has come though our school has not been able to finish our conditioning.

They just are not fit.

 

[drop bear]

People will always amaze me and shift my reality on what I thought I knew. Things that we thing are the exception are often shown to be more common than we thought.

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[Hot Lunch]

To begin with, strength and endurance are always good, and a certain level of fitness is needed in any MA endeavor.

As far as this discussion goes regarding weight and cardio training being useful in MA, the extent this is true depends on the purpose of the MA one is training. IMO, the following is a fair general summation:

Competition - Cardio is important as it involves extended output of energy thru multiple rounds or matches. Then there is muscular endurance allowing many reps at high speed. Strength comes into play if there is grappling.

Self-Defense - These kinds of situations are usually short lived so extended endurance is not the main concern. Energy is expended in short bursts. Strength is only needed to allow one's biomechanics to deliver a technique effective in injuring the opponent by strikes or for a bit of grappling control.

Self-Development - There are many varieties of this, so the level of strength and cardio needed may be low to high depending on the individual's personal goals.

Weight training can/should be tailored to facilitate MA technique from a martial artist's point of view. (EDIT- as I see JowGaWolf just mentioned) Core training (abs and lower back) is at the top of my list for both striking and grappling arts. Depending on the fighting system other strength areas may be stressed.

I think the main conditioning can come from just doing the MA in a vigorous and dedicated manner. Cardio and weights play a supporting (but helpful) role.

If I was forced to place a bet:

Two young men, both born on the same day. They're the same height, and have the same reach (i.e., neither have a reach advantage). Neither have ever trained in martial arts, and this is the first fight for both of them.

These, and all other factors being equal with the exception of physical fitness, my money is on the more physically fit one.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Fighters do not condition for "health"
they condition for fighting, regardless of health concerns...

Of course they do. They can't fight sick right? They just don't train only for health purposes. But health plays a really big role in being able to fight. My healthiest point of my Jow Ga Kung Fu was when I was training for competition.

This is why I tell people that if they train Taiji for fighting then they would get more of the health benefit and then they will get the bonus of knowing how to use some of it. For example, people who train Tai Chi for health doesn't do push hands. But push hands is a good way to be in tune with changes in your balance.

Every kung fu guy who has come though our school has not been able to finish our conditioning.

They just are not fit.

MMA fitness is not the same as "learn to do a form fitness" I keep telling you guys that the fitness requirement of one activity doesn't always translate into the fitness requirement of another activity. You have just pointed out an example of how the athleticism of one active did not benefit them when it came to MMA. Which is what I've been saying. Just because you lift weights, and run doesn't mean that it's going to be of benefit in doing another activity.

You can't be strong in motions that you don't train. To say that they aren't fit may not be accurate. They may have been fit according to the requirements of their Kung Fu but not to the requirements of MMA. This is why I say that you would have trouble with my Jow Ga workout. The requirements for performance in the two are different. Perfect example. Strikers have fitness requirements for striking but if they have never trained grappling then they will gas out when they train grappling. Striking has different fitness requirements than grappling. Just because I'm fit in one thing doesn't mean I'm fit in all things.

You can't be strong in the motions that you don't train. (Unless the motions are similar enough to where fitness and strength transfers.)

If I was forced to place a bet:

Two young men, both born on the same day. They're the same height, and have the same reach (i.e., neither have a reach advantage). Neither have ever trained in martial arts, and this is the first fight for both of them.

These, and all other factors being equal with the exception of physical fitness, my money is on the more physically fit one.

You would lose that bet; Twins look the same, but they do have differences. One twin may be more naturally aggressive than the other.

That video is an example of how 2 people born on the same day with the same genetics "height" and "reach" neither one looks like they train martial arts. But one twin is more aggressive than the other.

 

[Badhabits]

There's something to be said when you lift weights all the time, then go to a MA class and the next day have things sore and hurting you didn't know you have.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I was forced to place a bet:

Two young men, both born on the same day. They're the same height, and have the same reach (i.e., neither have a reach advantage). Neither have ever trained in martial arts, and this is the first fight for both of them.

These, and all other factors being equal with the exception of physical fitness, my money is on the more physically fit one.

Charlie Zelenoff is the one who is more physically fit. The senior citizen gets the best of him and Charlie can't handle the reality. So he throws the sucker punch

Old man power again. His opponent is more physically fit, but the younger guy still ate that punch

Same thing again. Someone older in less shape being someone in better shape.

Just saying.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There's something to be said when you lift weights all the time, then go to a MA class and the next day have things sore and hurting you didn't know you have.

Exactly. That's a good example of what I'm trying to point out.

 

[isshinryuronin]

They may have been fit according to the requirements of their Kung Fu but not to the requirements of MMA.

At 19 years old I was 0% fat and ripped. I was in the top 5% in physical fitness amongst USA highschoolers (they measured such things back then). I had just received my black belt, and the dojo was my second home. By any account, I was in great shape.

Then, in college, I got into wrestling. I will never forget the torture of the warm-up workouts (worse than the actual matches, IMO). At times I could not survive them, and nosebleeds were common. It was just a different kind of physical demand than I had ever experienced.

So, I agree that conditioning for one sport, even a related one, does not necessarily translate into another. Each activity has its own unique demands. But any conditioning is better than none.

Two young men, both born on the same day. They're the same height, and have the same reach (i.e., neither have a reach advantage). Neither have ever trained in martial arts, and this is the first fight for both of them.

These, and all other factors being equal with the exception of physical fitness, my money is on the more physically fit one.

Of course! But this could be said of any of the factors. If all others were equal excepts for size, I'd go with the big guy. All else being equal, I'd go for the one most aggressive, the better reach, the fastest, etc. So, this is a false argument.

 

[drop bear]

MMA fitness is not the same as "learn to do a form fitness" I keep telling you guys that the fitness requirement of one activity doesn't always translate into the fitness requirement of another activity. You have just pointed out an example of how the athleticism of one active did not benefit them when it came to MMA. Which is what I've been saying. Just because you lift weights, and run doesn't mean that it's going to be of benefit in doing another activity.

You can't be strong in motions that you don't train. To say that they aren't fit may not be accurate. They may have been fit according to the requirements of their Kung Fu but not to the requirements of MMA. This is why I say that you would have trouble with my Jow Ga workout. The requirements for performance in the two are different. Perfect example. Strikers have fitness requirements for striking but if they have never trained grappling then they will gas out when they train grappling. Striking has different fitness requirements than grappling. Just because I'm fit in one thing doesn't mean I'm fit in all things.

You can't be strong in the motions that you don't train. (Unless the motions are similar enough to where fitness and strength transfers.)

Which is the point of compound movements. Which just make you strong.

Rather than isolated movements which make you strong in specific areas.

 

[windwalker099]

For example, people who train Tai Chi for health doesn't do push hands. But push hands is a good way to be in tune with changes in your balance.

If they don't do push hands, or test their practice , what are they practicing?
Why call it taiji ?

Ben Lo

The study of martial arts is hard work. Most people can't take it. I always
tell people that, although the Hong Kong gongfu movies exaggerate the difficulty of training, they're partly true.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But any conditioning is better than none.

Yes. I agree with this as well. I have started from excellent physical shape, and I've started from the worst shape in my life. And being in shape was much better than being out of shape. Being overweight makes the stuff I already know even more difficult. So having to deal with the extra weight + the difficulty of doing something new is double. In some case being overweight prevents me from being able to try something new. There are some kicks in kung fu that I don't do specifically because of my weight. If I lose 20lbs then I can go back to doing that kick but for now, I'm not blowing my knees out for a kick. I've also lost muscle mass because of covid so now I have to rebuild that. So yeah, some conditioning is better than none, even if it doesn't specifically apply to the new stuff being learned. Some TMA schools won't even train someone if they are too overweight.

Being out of shape brings on other issues on top of the issues that naturally come from learning new movements.

If they don't do push hands, or test their practice , what are they practicing?

At that point they are doing just exercise. The movement's will still help balance and build muscle but It's like only getting 20% benefit when they could have a total of 80%. I personally think push hands would greatly help people maintain their balance when people bump into each other. I know some people may not be able to physcially take it that far, but for those who can, why not? Why leave it out for the sake of saying "Tai chi for health" it's like they left out the most important part

 

[Cri70]

My experience also. Boxers are the toughest guys to teach karate to. Most are just "too tight" in body and mindset to undo ingrained boxing biomechanics. Though I think boxers with a more relaxed style, like Ali or Sugar Ray Leonard, would have an easier time.

Among the easiest beginners to teach were dancers (modern or exotic). They have fewer "bad" habits to break and have great overall control of their bodies and motion.

(Western) fencing practitioners come to mind as well. Not an expert but working with fencers I got the idea that a lot of the fencing biomechanics are very similar to karate, and so is the emphasis on total relaxation to keep speed and stamina.

There are differences of course: for example in karate nowadays many tend to prefer the "body first" method of throwing arms out (the body moves and pushes the arm to which the hand is attached), while fencing is "hand first" and the body follows. But then this latter one is definitely an option for karate as well, just less popular in our days (guess because Shotokan ).

Also slightly different feet placement and quite different stepping in sports fencing (even if the "original" combat fencing had similar stepping to karate, for similar reasons) but I've noticed it's not so bad to switch for people, after the usual initial period of total mixup Sports fencing is by definition very linear (the competitors tend to move in one plane) but the "original" one wasn't at all (but then again sports karate is very similar to that respect).

But overall, I found that fencing people adapt to karate without too much distress, and even more the other way around (they're happy nobody's trying to punch them in the face )

 

[Badhabits]

So aside from added mass and being able to muscle techniques into working. What really are the benefits of great physical strength in fighting?