Social Media Naysayers

[Steve]

To be clear, I liked the "show." I also liked the shows Lion King, The Godfather, and Fraiser. That doesn't mean they're MA.

Rewatching that bo video, I saw MAYBE 10% MA related moves that could conceivably be effectively applied in combat. That leaves a minimum 90% that has nothing to do with fighting. I think this disparity is more than enough to classify the show as something other than MA. An entertaining exhibition of dexterity and skill to be sure, but not MA. My "preferred" version of a kata is one that is related to "martial" art.

I’m sure you believe all that to be true, and that what you do is totally different. I would guess your kata is like 110% MA related. Of course, you’re creating the evaluation using your own kata as the de facto standard, so how could it not?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

To be clear, I liked the "show." I also liked the shows Lion King, The Godfather, and Fraiser. That doesn't mean they're MA.

Rewatching that bo video, I saw MAYBE 10% MA related moves that could conceivably be effectively applied in combat. That leaves a minimum 90% that has nothing to do with fighting. I think this disparity is more than enough to classify the show as something other than MA. An entertaining exhibition of dexterity and skill to be sure, but not MA. My "preferred" version of a kata is one that is related to "martial" art.

If it's 10% martial, 90% art, that still falls under martial art. It's just that most MA are closer to 90% martial, 10% art.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If it's 10% martial, 90% art, that still falls under martial art.

This is not logical at all. Why wouldn't it fall under the category that's the 90%? Leroy Neiman is a painter famous for his sport scenes. He did a painting of Ali the boxer. Is Neiman a martial artist because 10% of his work is related to MA?

 

[Steve]

If it's 10% martial, 90% art, that still falls under martial art. It's just that most MA are closer to 90% martial, 10% art.

I appreciate and agree with your sentiment, and superficially, this provides some room to discuss how much "martial" is enough for something to be considered a "martial art." What is and is not MA is a very subjective, moot point. That's really the entire crux of it.

People presume that what they're doing is "martial" and what other people do isn't "martial." Or in this case, there is a spectrum, and some things are "martial", and others are "martial-like". It's the very definition of moot.

But we don't tend to get that far. If I were a betting man, I'd guess that some people think I'm being critical of their style of martial arts (I'm not) or that I'm trashing TMA and/or kata (I'm not). In the same vein, some people are trashing XMA, but think it's entirely justified because... well, because they believe their opinion is obviously, objectively correct (it's not).

 

[Steve]

At this rate, someone's going to suggest that clackledockling is not a real martial art.

 

[Steve]

This is not logical at all. Why wouldn't it all under the catagory that's the 90%? Leroy Neiman is a painter famous for his sport scenes. He did a painting of Ali the boxer. Is Neiman a martial artist because 10% of his work is related to MA?

How martial is your kata?

 

[isshinryuronin]

How martial is your kata?

Good question. I'd like to say 100%.

1. Every stance is capable of supporting an effect attack, counterattack or defense.
2. Every move has effective combat applications and effect.
3. Every position facilitates an effective offensive or defensive technique.
4. If a weapons kata, the weapon is never out of my immediate control.

These are the ideals my kata and I strive for. Every instance that is counter to these ideals takes it further from MA. They are not subjective (for the most part). The value of each can be tested and demonstrated. The next time you're in a fight, try doing a flip and end up in the splits with your back to your assailant and let me know how that works for you .) Most traditional kata were designed by those whose vocation/survival was dependent on fighting ability and, for some strange reason, they left these kinds of moves out.

The reality is, IMO, 80-85%. There is likely some degradation in the kata over the past century or two that renders some moves not as effective as originally designed or now not fully understood.

But the intent of the kata was/is effective self-defense. Once that is lost in favor of entertainment it is no longer martial, only martial-like. Even in class drills, if you're not doing the technique with the above ideals in mind with intent, visualizing an opponent, your practice is less martial and more exercise.

You could call doing push-ups a martial art since they resemble (10% worth) a double punch-like movement. It depends on how absurd and loose your idea of martial arts is. What's your view of what something must be to be considered MA as opposed to exercise or performance art?

 

[Steve]

Good question. I'd like to say 100%.

1. Every stance is capable of supporting an effect attack, counterattack or defense.
2. Every move has effective combat applications and effect.
3. Every position facilitates an effective offensive or defensive technique.
4. If a weapons kata, the weapon is never out of my immediate control.

These are the ideals my kata and I strive for. Every instance that is counter to these ideals takes it further from MA. They are not subjective (for the most part). The value of each can be tested and demonstrated. The next time you're in a fight, try doing a flip and end up in the splits with your back to your assailant and let me know how that works for you .) Most traditional kata were designed by those whose vocation/survival was dependent on fighting ability and, for some strange reason, they left these kinds of moves out.

The reality is, IMO, 80-85%. There is likely some degradation in the kata over the past century or two that renders some moves not as effective as originally designed or now not fully understood.

But the intent of the kata was/is effective self-defense. Once that is lost in favor of entertainment it is no longer martial, only martial-like. Even in class drills, if you're not doing the technique with the above ideals in mind with intent, visualizing an opponent, your practice is less martial and more exercise.

You could call doing push-ups a martial art since they resemble (10% worth) a double punch-like movement. It depends on how absurd and loose your idea of martial arts is. What's your view of what something must be to be considered MA as opposed to exercise or performance art?

Oof... 85%...

A couple of thoughts. I think people define martial arts in different ways. It's possible your definition of martial arts is different than mine... likely even.

You say push ups are 10% martial. I have absolutely no clue where that number comes from. Actually, I do. It's made up. You made it up just like you're making up the 80-85% for your own kata and the 10% for the XMA kata. It's entirely a product of your imagination. So, you're once again making the point that this entire thing is subjective. I mean, being completely frank, I have absolutely no clue what you mean when you say "martial".

Some people don't think boxing is a martial art. Some do. Some don't think RBSD is martial arts. Some do. Some like to use phrases like "martial sport" to distinguish what they do from something they don't consider a "real" martial art.

Personally, I think they're all martial arts. I don't think Asian arts or "traditional" arts have cornered the market on "martial arts' any more than karate has cornered the market on kata. You obviously disagree, and that's just fine with me.

All that said, I could take the bait you're offering and make the easy and obvious arguments that traditional kata is "martial like" in exactly the same way XMA kata is "martial like". But I'm not interested in the hassle I'd get for offering specific, critical feedback about traditional kata. People will read it and conclude that I'm anti-kata and/or anti-TMA, get defensive and start telling me what I really mean, and I frankly don't have the energy for it. Hell, I'm sure some folks have already tuned me out and are thinking exactly this. So, I'll just quit while I'm behind, and hope that you'll give this some more thought... maybe lead to you being a little more open minded down the road.