"So, you think you can take me?"

Have to share a comment here. The frequent "rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 line" irritates me in that many people think that gives them a free pass . . . it doesn't.

Do I agree with the statement? Insofar as it relates to an encounter in that moment. Absolutely. I will do whatever I need to survive and deal with the aftermath later, but I will come out of it.

However, to think that gives you a free pass to ignore the legal ramifications of your actions, as well as any moral or ethical ones that you may subscribe to, is to be woefully ill-prepared. American Kenpo (and Shaolin Kempo as well) is an art filled with ridiculous techniques of felonious proportions. Ever seen Leap of Death? How about Back Breaker? Heck, even the popular Five Swords? Most techniques will stop an opponent in the first two or three movements if done correctly, but there are seven or ten movements left. You don't break the guy's arm and knock him out, you then proceed to break the arm three different directions, blow out his knee, snap a neck, dislocate a shoulder and then jump on the guy's kidneys. If you don't recognize the potential, you quickly move from defender, protecting yourself legally in self-defense, to assailant, carrying on an assault with skilled training. In fact, the mere fact that you've trained and had the chance to understand your actions places additional culpability on it. That's not to say you have less rights than the untrained citizen, but the chance of your defense being "I didn't know!" is drastically reduced. Add to that comments that are made in public forums, and you can easily end up Bubba's cellmate because you decided that challenging and inviting was the way to go.

You have to understand potential ramifications for everything you do, at least in your preparation for it. It's the same as ignoring the ground in your self-defense training. A critical element of self-defense is understanding where the law puts its limits. And you don't have to be a lawyer to understand it, but generally it's simple:

1) You are allowed to terminate the threat to your well-being (or those under your care).
2) You are allowed to use an amount of force that is reasonable to the level of threat. (Lethal force against a push is not reasonable . . . but pulling a gun when they've got a knife, sounds reasonable to me!)
3) Once the threat to your well being is terminated (person is in a heaped pile after the opening of Five Swords), you are no longer allowed to pursue any course of violence. To do so puts you as the aggressor.

Pretty simple, and pretty easy to be aware of. You train with eye gouges, weapon disarms and reuse, multiple breaks, chokes, etc. and don't understand that for a push it's not appropriate. You deserve to be tried by 12 and lose freedom as a criminal.

I know probably many of the people that make this statement are thinking of it this way, but I've run into my fair share of people that don't, and I like to make sure they understand.

As to the earlier comments made about stepping up to a challenge, backing down, and problems with either or any response in the spectrum, I will say this.

My usual response is comedy. It works for me.

"You think you can take me?"
Where would you like to go?

Some people work better with a eerily confident Yes, why? that can easily disarm an opponent's will. Others, it's better to say something like Probably not. In the right circumstances, with the right person saying it with the right attitude, and the right person hearing it, it all works. I've used every one of those response when the situation called for it. It doesn't mean you crawl into a hole and are scared to come out, but it also doesn't mean you are looking for a fight. I do completely disagree with the attitude of encouraging the fight immediately to test their resolve. As a blanket attitude and statement to the situation, it ignores the very human variable elements. I would tend to think in many cases, it can and will end in a bad way - and any fight will end in a bad way in some manner. Is it appropriate in some cases? Yes, but I would not think the majority of them.
 
"Warrior's Code"?
As far as I am concerned Article One, Section One is "Do not get hit"
Closely followed by Article One, Section Two "When you cannot avoid a fight, Hit FIRST, Hit HARD and HIT OFTEN"
 
Zepeda,

With all due respect as you have been training for more years in Wing Chun, so your my senior and I respect you as such. But I would say that human beings are capable of reacting in circumstances differently based on the stimulus given to them. So if you give them a negative stimulus people generally will react negatively, just the same as you give them a positive stimulus then they react accordingly. But given as with anything there are exceptions.

I would say the negative energy given to them would not so much show there true intentions but just there negative intentions because of the energy and environment that you provided them is one that they would counter with the same.

But if we shucked our ego's and let them say what they want to say, more than likely they have either an insecurity problem or are a punk that wants to show out, or just not in a stable mind.

These environments are environments that most stable, intelligent people would not want to surround themselves in. Not saying that your the opposite, lol that's not what I meant.

So coming from the San Francisco Chinatown area personally, we have these encounters quite a bit especially when your training on your own. I would say let by gone's be by gone's. If it can be avoided then let it be avoided.

You don't lose anything by not entertaining the conflict.

Haha! Not trying to preach to the choir or lecture you, but just trying to share my opinion with you hopefully in a non condescending way. If it came out as otherwise then my sincerest apologies.

p.s. also apologies for my spellings as for some reason my English sucks today!
 
mwd0818,
As a student of Kenpo, let me tell you what Mr Planas and My Sifu have told us time and again about techniques like Back Breaker and Leap of Death:
"You beat the attacker as much as you have to to stop the threat. If you punch him once and the threat is over, that is great, but, it is a good idea to know what you can or may have to do if one, two, or five strikes don't stop him. What if he's hopped up on drugs and breaking his arm barely slows him down? Take out that knee."
 
Have to share a comment here. The frequent "rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 line" irritates me in that many people think that gives them a free pass . . . it doesn't.

Do I agree with the statement? Insofar as it relates to an encounter in that moment. Absolutely. I will do whatever I need to survive and deal with the aftermath later, but I will come out of it.

However, to think that gives you a free pass to ignore the legal ramifications of your actions, as well as any moral or ethical ones that you may subscribe to, is to be woefully ill-prepared. American Kenpo (and Shaolin Kempo as well) is an art filled with ridiculous techniques of felonious proportions. Ever seen Leap of Death? How about Back Breaker? Heck, even the popular Five Swords? Most techniques will stop an opponent in the first two or three movements if done correctly, but there are seven or ten movements left. You don't break the guy's arm and knock him out, you then proceed to break the arm three different directions, blow out his knee, snap a neck, dislocate a shoulder and then jump on the guy's kidneys. If you don't recognize the potential, you quickly move from defender, protecting yourself legally in self-defense, to assailant, carrying on an assault with skilled training. In fact, the mere fact that you've trained and had the chance to understand your actions places additional culpability on it. That's not to say you have less rights than the untrained citizen, but the chance of your defense being "I didn't know!" is drastically reduced. Add to that comments that are made in public forums, and you can easily end up Bubba's cellmate because you decided that challenging and inviting was the way to go.

You have to understand potential ramifications for everything you do, at least in your preparation for it. It's the same as ignoring the ground in your self-defense training. A critical element of self-defense is understanding where the law puts its limits. And you don't have to be a lawyer to understand it, but generally it's simple:

1) You are allowed to terminate the threat to your well-being (or those under your care).
2) You are allowed to use an amount of force that is reasonable to the level of threat. (Lethal force against a push is not reasonable . . . but pulling a gun when they've got a knife, sounds reasonable to me!)
3) Once the threat to your well being is terminated (person is in a heaped pile after the opening of Five Swords), you are no longer allowed to pursue any course of violence. To do so puts you as the aggressor.

Pretty simple, and pretty easy to be aware of. You train with eye gouges, weapon disarms and reuse, multiple breaks, chokes, etc. and don't understand that for a push it's not appropriate. You deserve to be tried by 12 and lose freedom as a criminal.

I know probably many of the people that make this statement are thinking of it this way, but I've run into my fair share of people that don't, and I like to make sure they understand.

As to the earlier comments made about stepping up to a challenge, backing down, and problems with either or any response in the spectrum, I will say this.

My usual response is comedy. It works for me.

"You think you can take me?"
Where would you like to go?

Some people work better with a eerily confident Yes, why? that can easily disarm an opponent's will. Others, it's better to say something like Probably not. In the right circumstances, with the right person saying it with the right attitude, and the right person hearing it, it all works. I've used every one of those response when the situation called for it. It doesn't mean you crawl into a hole and are scared to come out, but it also doesn't mean you are looking for a fight. I do completely disagree with the attitude of encouraging the fight immediately to test their resolve. As a blanket attitude and statement to the situation, it ignores the very human variable elements. I would tend to think in many cases, it can and will end in a bad way - and any fight will end in a bad way in some manner. Is it appropriate in some cases? Yes, but I would not think the majority of them.

Just to clarify my usage of the term. IMO, I think that many times, people are afraid to defend themselves, because they're too worried about the aftermath. I started a thread on the subject a while ago. As I always say, for me, I like to assess the situation and base my response off of that. I've also said that while it may be tempting to keep on pounding after the threat is removed, its probably not the smartest thing to do, at least IMO, and of course, people are free to disagree, as that choice is on them. :)

As far as the techs. that you mentioned go...I'm sure I did a thread on those as well, but again, it comes back to the situation dictating what we do. 5 Swords is a great Kenpo tech. for a roundhouse punch. But, do I need to do all that stuff? IMO, no. We should eventually get to a point in our training, where we can make changes, adjustments, etc. in our techs. In other words, that right outward handsword to the throat and the left 4 finger eye shot, can be substituted with a handsword to the face/jaw area, and a palm to the face, rather than the poke.

By no means, I hope you didn't take my post as saying that I don't care about the aftermath. :) Trust me, I do care. As I said, I just don't think that people should be afraid to defend themselves.
 
By no means, I hope you didn't take my post as saying that I don't care about the aftermath. :) Trust me, I do care. As I said, I just don't think that people should be afraid to defend themselves.

I figured you were one of the people that does not make that statement lightly and do understand the implications. :) In the moment, I agree completely with it. "Defend yourself, do what you need to." But to think that it provides a free pass, you've got some learning to do. As I said earlier, I think most of us get that, but I still cringe when I hear that one because I've met too many people that didn't get it!

mwd0818,
As a student of Kenpo, let me tell you what Mr Planas and My Sifu have told us time and again about techniques like Back Breaker and Leap of Death:
"You beat the attacker as much as you have to to stop the threat. If you punch him once and the threat is over, that is great, but, it is a good idea to know what you can or may have to do if one, two, or five strikes don't stop him. What if he's hopped up on drugs and breaking his arm barely slows him down? Take out that knee."

I agree completely. In addition to that, let's be honest . . . most of the techniques in the Kenpo system deal with that Ideal Phase attack. You probably won't get all the way through ANY of them, even if you need to. That's why we teach grafting and improvisation. You learn all these configurations in order to understand how to move, how to attack, how the opponent will move, etc. Once you have a grasp on it, then you can move into that spontaneous mode and create Two and Half Swords Leaping into the Death of a Circling Storm Twin Kimono Flashing Mace Crane Technique. :)
 
Look him up and down...

Say "yes"...

Then go back to your business.
Works a lot of the time...

So does "I don't know and I don't care."

You lose by feeding their ego, whatever way you go. If you don't feed that ego, most'll give up.

The ones to worry about ain't gonna ask first.
 
Have to share a comment here. The frequent "rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 line" irritates me in that many people think that gives them a free pass . . . it doesn't.

I agree. People need to be aware of the risks in being judged by a group of peers. The same peers that are taken from the voter rolls. The same peers that are electing your representatives.
 
I agree. People need to be aware of the risks in being judged by a group of peers. The same peers that are taken from the voter rolls. The same peers that are electing your representatives.

Thanks for pointing that out...

...screw it...I'm going to become a recluse. LOL
 
"Warrior's Code"?
As far as I am concerned Article One, Section One is "Do not get hit"
Closely followed by Article One, Section Two "When you cannot avoid a fight, Hit FIRST, Hit HARD and HIT OFTEN"

Article One, Section One, Part 2: Do not put yourself in situations to get hit.

The Art of War, elaborates greatly on this and much more. :)
 
"So you think you can take me?"

*Bold laugh*... I would love to think I could, but going any further beyond imagination would mean one of us wouldnt be eating dinner tonight... *walk away*
 
"So you think you can take me?"
"well I prefer brunettes..."

"So you think you can take me?"
"Sure, where did your car stall?"

"So you think you can take me?"
"Usually not on a first date"
 
In all seriousness, though, in regard to the OP:

Anybody training in public is BUYING this, it's part of the package deal. Don't want it, don't do it.
 
I never train in public because every time I have it has scared people too badly. One time it was at a hotel that I worked security in. The janitor saw what I was doing and didn't want to work with me! He said I scared him, even though it wasn't done in his direction at all, in an empty lounge that was closed for the night. I had to assure him that I wouldn't hurt him and that part of my job was to protect him. It worked, and he relaxed. The other time was practicing straight punching while walking on a patrol, it scared somebody walking on the sidewalk. So I don't do it in public anymore.
 
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