Parent in class

[Steve]

Alright. Rereading the original thread and turning off my BS meter, thinking about this as a pure hypothetical. There are a couple of things I would have done differently. First, if the goal is to actually have the other guy calm down, telling him he should calm down is usually going to have the reverse effect.

Second, taking the call in the parking lot during and after class seems pretty unprofessional and probably didn't help the situation, particularly as a guest instructor. I am having a hard time envisioning a class of four kids running the end of their class on their own and bowing themselves out. That just doesn't make sense. But even in an adults class, as a guest instructor, I think you need to be present in the class or risk losing control of it.

Otherwise, it's good that you remained polite and calm. That's always a good idea.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Alright. Rereading the original thread and turning off my BS meter, thinking about this as a pure hypothetical. There are a couple of things I would have done differently. First, if the goal is to actually have the other guy calm down, telling him he should calm down is usually going to have the reverse effect.

Second, taking the call in the parking lot during and after class seems pretty unprofessional and probably didn't help the situation, particularly as a guest instructor. I am having a hard time envisioning a class of four kids running the end of their class on their own and bowing themselves out. That just doesn't make sense. But even in an adults class, as a guest instructor, I think you need to be present in the class or risk losing control of it.

Otherwise, it's good that you remained polite and calm. That's always a good idea.

I got the impression that the other instructor was actually running class, and the OP was simply handling these students' evaluations. The call after class (IMO) has nothing to do with professionalism, positive or negative, since class was over. One during class, well that would depend upon the situation. If he was unengaged at that point, then I see nothing wrong with that one, either.

 

[Steve]

I got the impression that the other instructor was actually running class, and the OP was simply handling these students' evaluations. The call after class (IMO) has nothing to do with professionalism, positive or negative, since class was over. One during class, well that would depend upon the situation. If he was unengaged at that point, then I see nothing wrong with that one, either.

Hey now. This is a hypothetical. I posted based on my impressions and took some heat. I suspect, though, that since your impressions are favorable to the OP, you're on safe ground.

The OP doesn't say one way or the other where the head instructor was during this entire thing, but if he's in the building while this stuff is going on and doesn't step in, that's just plain odd to me. I don't know where the head instructor was, but he doesn't seem to have been around.

Let me say it this way, if you're helping lead a class, leaving before the end isn't generally a good idea. And he does say specifically that he was outside in the parking lot before the class bowed out, which isn't after the class is over. Maybe we just disagree on what is and isn't professional in this situation, barring an emergency.

More to the point, though, it isn't going to help defuse a tense situation. Being out in the parking lot is neutral ground. If someone is inclined to act out it's more likely to happen in a neutral area than inside the place of business.

 

[Tez3]

There were multiple instances over the years where I was verbally abused or physically threatened by a customer even as I did my best to stay calm and reasonable. I don't buy the notion that I must have been partially at fault because "these things don't happen in a vacuum."

I have seen a lot of situations where verbal and even physical abuse have happened when it was out and out only the abusers fault. any police officer will tell you of circumstances like that, sometimes just seeing someone in uniform is enough to get some people ranting. I've seen people having a go at traffic wardens who have said nothing but have put a ticket on a car. I've seen drunks have a go at door staff without the door staff actually doing anything that concerned the person but was speaking to someone who the abuser wasn't connected with. I've seen people have a go at Muslims, especially women in scarves, no provocation other than what they we wearing, same with someone having a go at a chap wearing a yarmulke. Many situations happen when the blame is firmly on one person and the other is entirely innocent.

I consider this place somewhere to have conversations with friends, the nobs I ignore.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If I'm reading the original account correctly, the sequence went something like this:

Chief Instructor (CI) is leading a children's class. Headhunter (OP) is helping out as an assistant, assigned by the CI to help a group of 4 students review material and evaluate them to see if they are ready for their next belt tips. OP decides 3 students are ready and one is not. It's unclear from the description if he personally handed out the tips or just reported his judgment to the CI. At this point the 4 students presumably rejoin the main class and the OP steps off the mat to take a phone call before the CI bows the class out. It's unclear whether he left right before the bow-out or if there was still more class time going on.

OP leaves the building, whether for the sake of the call or because he was done for the day is not specified. Parent confronts OP in the parking lot over the fact that his kid didn't receive his belt tip. At this time, CI is still in the building (as would be expected, since even if this was the class there is always time spent winding down, cleaning, locking up, etc.) and thus is not a witness to what is going on.

First, if the goal is to actually have the other guy calm down, telling him he should calm down is usually going to have the reverse effect.

True, but once you're already to the point of having someone physically threaten you, finding the perfect verbiage to defuse the situation is a pretty advanced skill. Not many people, including those who deal with violent people professionally, have mastered it. The OPs account says that he recommended calming down after the parent had already threatened him.

Second, taking the call in the parking lot during and after class seems pretty unprofessional and probably didn't help the situation, particularly as a guest instructor

Eh, if the OP had already completed his assigned task (reviewing material for the 4 kids and evaluating them) and those kids had rejoined the main class, I don't see a major problem with him stepping out of class early. (If he did leave the kids unsupervised, I agree that would have been a big no-no.)

Being out in the parking lot is neutral ground. If someone is inclined to act out it's more likely to happen in a neutral area than inside the place of business.

True, but it doesn't sound like the OP had any reason to expect someone would be acting out in the first place.

 

[Steve]

I have seen a lot of situations where verbal and even physical abuse have happened when it was out and out only the abusers fault. any police officer will tell you of circumstances like that, sometimes just seeing someone in uniform is enough to get some people ranting. I've seen people having a go at traffic wardens who have said nothing but have put a ticket on a car. I've seen drunks have a go at door staff without the door staff actually doing anything that concerned the person but was speaking to someone who the abuser wasn't connected with. I've seen people have a go at Muslims, especially women in scarves, no provocation other than what they we wearing, same with someone having a go at a chap wearing a yarmulke. Many situations happen when the blame is firmly on one person and the other is entirely innocent.

I consider this place somewhere to have conversations with friends, the nobs I ignore.

Happens all the time, where people are not viewed as individuals, but instead represent something larger. Cops, religion, the IRS, a bouncer.

My experience has been that in order to deescalate situations like that, you have to get the person to first see you as an individual and not as a symbol.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hey now. This is a hypothetical. I posted based on my impressions and took some heat. I suspect, though, that since your impressions are favorable to the OP, you're on safe ground.

The OP doesn't say one way or the other where the head instructor was during this entire thing, but if he's in the building while this stuff is going on and doesn't step in, that's just plain odd to me. I don't know where the head instructor was, but he doesn't seem to have been around.

Let me say it this way, if you're helping lead a class, leaving before the end isn't generally a good idea. And he does say specifically that he was outside in the parking lot before the class bowed out, which isn't after the class is over. Maybe we just disagree on what is and isn't professional in this situation, barring an emergency.

More to the point, though, it isn't going to help defuse a tense situation. Being out in the parking lot is neutral ground. If someone is inclined to act out it's more likely to happen in a neutral area than inside the place of business.

I agree on that last point. I didn't get the impression (in the hypothetical situation, of course) that the tension started inside. If it did, walking outside might not have been the best next step. I could probably go back and read the OP, but I'm feeling to lazy to click that far. Besides, I'd rather bicker with you than be helpful.

On the leaving before the end of class, I can think of situations where that wouldn't be inappropriate, and there's nothing in the OP to point either way. I've been asked before to step in and help with classes where I was sitting and watching. Sometimes it was just so the instructor for that class could focus on a specific group for 20 minutes, and that 20 minutes might be the only time I'm involved in the class. I'm also guessing (and yeah, it's a guess) that they don't take cell phone calls inside the school, so if someone is not involved in a class and gets a call, they just step outside (into the parking lot) to answer. That's what we'd do at my instructor's school if we were in the visitors area (the only place we'd have our phones handy, anyway).

 

[Steve]

If I'm reading the original account correctly, the sequence went something like this:

Chief Instructor (CI) is leading a children's class. Headhunter (OP) is helping out as an assistant, assigned by the CI to help a group of 4 students review material and evaluate them to see if they are ready for their next belt tips. OP decides 3 students are ready and one is not. It's unclear from the description if he personally handed out the tips or just reported his judgment to the CI. At this point the 4 students presumably rejoin the main class and the OP steps off the mat to take a phone call before the CI bows the class out. It's unclear whether he left right before the bow-out or if there was still more class time going on.

OP leaves the building, whether for the sake of the call or because he was done for the day is not specified. Parent confronts OP in the parking lot over the fact that his kid didn't receive his belt tip. At this time, CI is still in the building (as would be expected, since even if this was the class there is always time spent winding down, cleaning, locking up, etc.) and thus is not a witness to what is going on.


True, but once you're already to the point of having someone physically threaten you, finding the perfect verbiage to defuse the situation is a pretty advanced skill. Not many people, including those who deal with violent people professionally, have mastered it. The OPs account says that he recommended calming down after the parent had already threatened him.


Eh, if the OP had already completed his assigned task (reviewing material for the 4 kids and evaluating them) and those kids had rejoined the main class, I don't see a major problem with him stepping out of class early. (If he did leave the kids unsupervised, I agree that would have been a big no-no.)


True, but it doesn't sound like the OP had any reason to expect someone would be acting out in the first place.

So, I make two points, and in reply to both you say, "True." And then, "but."

CI might be on site. I don't know where he is. He's not where this is happening, though.

And I'm not saying anything controversial. I get what you're saying, but we're not talking about what actually happened. This is a hypothetical. Hypothetically, based on what was said, telling someone to calm down is not a great way to get someone to calm down. If we're discussing how this situation might have been better handled, that's one valid suggestion. True, or "true, but"?

And also, a parking lot is neutral ground. It is true that people can be more emboldened in a neutral setting. They are more comfortable.

We do have some hints that the parent in this situation is a potential problem. The OP indicates that the two of them actually have some history, although we don't know much more than that. If we're talking about ways this MIGHT have been handled better, always better to stay professional. Moving out into the parking lot was not a great move. Better to keep things in the school where the deck is stacked toward the business, and where the school owner is (maybe) on hand to step in.

 

[Steve]

I agree on that last point. I didn't get the impression (in the hypothetical situation, of course) that the tension started inside. If it did, walking outside might not have been the best next step. I could probably go back and read the OP, but I'm feeling to lazy to click that far. Besides, I'd rather bicker with you than be helpful.

On the leaving before the end of class, I can think of situations where that wouldn't be inappropriate, and there's nothing in the OP to point either way. I've been asked before to step in and help with classes where I was sitting and watching. Sometimes it was just so the instructor for that class could focus on a specific group for 20 minutes, and that 20 minutes might be the only time I'm involved in the class. I'm also guessing (and yeah, it's a guess) that they don't take cell phone calls inside the school, so if someone is not involved in a class and gets a call, they just step outside (into the parking lot) to answer. That's what we'd do at my instructor's school if we were in the visitors area (the only place we'd have our phones handy, anyway).

LOL.. okay guys. What's going on? Are we talking about hypothetical ways in which the situation might have been handled better, or are we looking for ways to dismiss any legitimate suggestions? "True, but" is still true. Or is it?

Point with the parking lot is, if it's not an emergency and you're helping out with the class, better to not take phone calls unless it's an emergency. It's more professional and it also prevents situations like this.

 

[Headhunter]

If I'm reading the original account correctly, the sequence went something like this:

Chief Instructor (CI) is leading a children's class. Headhunter (OP) is helping out as an assistant, assigned by the CI to help a group of 4 students review material and evaluate them to see if they are ready for their next belt tips. OP decides 3 students are ready and one is not. It's unclear from the description if he personally handed out the tips or just reported his judgment to the CI. At this point the 4 students presumably rejoin the main class and the OP steps off the mat to take a phone call before the CI bows the class out. It's unclear whether he left right before the bow-out or if there was still more class time going on.

OP leaves the building, whether for the sake of the call or because he was done for the day is not specified. Parent confronts OP in the parking lot over the fact that his kid didn't receive his belt tip. At this time, CI is still in the building (as would be expected, since even if this was the class there is always time spent winding down, cleaning, locking up, etc.) and thus is not a witness to what is going on.


True, but once you're already to the point of having someone physically threaten you, finding the perfect verbiage to defuse the situation is a pretty advanced skill. Not many people, including those who deal with violent people professionally, have mastered it. The OPs account says that he recommended calming down after the parent had already threatened him.


Eh, if the OP had already completed his assigned task (reviewing material for the 4 kids and evaluating them) and those kids had rejoined the main class, I don't see a major problem with him stepping out of class early. (If he did leave the kids unsupervised, I agree that would have been a big no-no.)


True, but it doesn't sound like the OP had any reason to expect someone would be acting out in the first place.

Pretty much what happened god is this still going on? Everyone else round here seems to be using there brains about this apart from Stevey boy who quite honestly seems to just be causing trouble here

 

[Gerry Seymour]

LOL.. okay guys. What's going on? Are we talking about hypothetical ways in which the situation might have been handled better, or are we looking for ways to dismiss any legitimate suggestions? "True, but" is still true. Or is it?

Point with the parking lot is, if it's not an emergency and you're helping out with the class, better to not take phone calls unless it's an emergency. It's more professional and it also prevents situations like this.

None of my points were "true, but". They were mostly, "true given certain assumptions, though different assumptions yield a different view". Not as concise, I know.

My only point was that your recommendations and observations are valid, given certain assumptions. We don't (yet?) have the information to do more than assume. I made a different set of assumptions, and came to a different conclusion.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So, I make two points, and in reply to both you say, "True." And then, "but."

Well the first of those "true, but"s was on the issue of what to say to calm down someone who has just physically threatened you. That's a really advanced topic which could fill up books and requires a lot of practical experience to handle optimally. I've had some successful experience in that area but I still don't feel competent to suggest something better the OP could have said, especially without having been there to read the body language involved. When someone is just complaining, saying "calm down" can have the opposite of the intended effect. (That is where my "true" came in.) When someone has progressed to threatening violence, then "calm down" may not be the perfect phrase, but it's far, far from the worst thing to say. If you have suggestions about something better the OP might have said at this point, then that would certainly be a helpful contribution to the conversation.

In any case, according to the OP's account, the parent did walk away after the "calm down." Did he walk away because of the "calm down" or because of the "I don't want any trouble" or because of the "I will defend myself, so consider the consequences" or because he had already escalated as far as he was willing to and didn't want to actually start a fight with a martial arts instructor or because his brain finally caught up with his mouth and he realized he was being an idiot? We have no way of knowing. All we do know is that in this particular case, saying "calm down" did not actually make things worse or cause the parent to become angrier.

(Once again, this is assuming the OP's account is reasonably accurate. That's the hypothetical I'm discussing, not any of the thousands of other hypothetical situations where things happened very differently from what he describes.)

 

[Steve]

Pretty much what happened god is this still going on? Everyone else round here seems to be using there brains about this apart from Stevey boy who quite honestly seems to just be causing trouble here

Hey, I'm sorry if I was overly critical at the beginning. Mea culpa. I missed the memo that this isn't a thread about what actually happened, but is intended as a hypothetical exercise.

Genuinely, from a hypothetical, Monday morning QB perspective, there are a couple of things I saw that could have been handled better. Not intended to be critical of you. Just things to consider. I don't see them as being all that controversial, either. Don't tell people to calm down if that's what you want them to do. And where possible, don't give people who are angry a neutral venue to act out.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Point with the parking lot is, if it's not an emergency and you're helping out with the class, better to not take phone calls unless it's an emergency. It's more professional and it also prevents situations like this.

How do you figure? If the OP had bowed out with the rest of the class and then stepped outside to take a phone call while the CI was still inside teaching the next class or cleaning up, do you really think the parent would have been less likely to follow him out and start the confrontation? Why would that have been a factor in a parent's willingness to cause a scene about his kid not getting promoted?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

BTW - is anyone a Bob's Burgers fan? This thread is giving me flashbacks to Season 1, Episode 4.

 

[Steve]

Well the first of those "true, but"s was on the issue of what to say to calm down someone who has just physically threatened you. That's a really advanced topic which could fill up books and requires a lot of practical experience to handle optimally. I've had some successful experience in that area but I still don't feel competent to suggest something better the OP could have said, especially without having been there to read the body language involved. When someone is just complaining, saying "calm down" can have the opposite of the intended effect. (That is where my "true" came in.) When someone has progressed to threatening violence, then "calm down" may not be the perfect phrase, but it's far, far from the worst thing to say. If you have suggestions about something better the OP might have said at this point, then that would certainly be a helpful contribution to the conversation.

In any case, according to the OP's account, the parent did walk away after the "calm down." Did he walk away because of the "calm down" or because of the "I don't want any trouble" or because of the "I will defend myself, so consider the consequences" or because he had already escalated as far as he was willing to and didn't want to actually start a fight with a martial arts instructor or because his brain finally caught up with his mouth and he realized he was being an idiot? We have no way of knowing. All we do know is that in this particular case, saying "calm down" did not actually make things worse or cause the parent to become angrier.

(Once again, this is assuming the OP's account is reasonably accurate. That's the hypothetical I'm discussing, not any of the thousands of other hypothetical situations where things happened very differently from what he describes.)

So, let me try to reset here. It all worked out, according to this account. At least the situation in the moment has worked out. This may very well boil back up again at some later date. So, according to what's been written, it is a given that any suggestions on areas where things could have been done better are offered in that context.

Regarding things that could have been said, well, that's a tough one, because I don't know for sure what WAS said. Sounds like he started off by saying that the kid has good essentials and just needs a little more work. Full stop there might be a better approach. Deflection can be a good approach, as well. You don't disagree with the guy, but you also don't agree with him. Deferring to the head instructor was good, too.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Deflection can be a good approach, as well. You don't disagree with the guy, but you also don't agree with him. Deferring to the head instructor was good, too.

"The head instructor has the final say on promotions, so you'll need to take it up with him" might have been a good line to try.

 

[Steve]

How do you figure? If the OP had bowed out with the rest of the class and then stepped outside to take a phone call while the CI was still inside teaching the next class or cleaning up, do you really think the parent would have been less likely to follow him out and start the confrontation? Why would that have been a factor in a parent's willingness to cause a scene about his kid not getting promoted?

So, once again, I guess my hypothetical is different from yours. My impression from the OP is that he was leading a kids class with four kids in it. Three were great. One was a terror. Before the end of class, he stepped out to take a phone call. "Oh and before someone asks why the head instructor didnt step in it was because it was in the car park outside as I'd left before the class bowed out to take a phone call but I told my instructor what happened straight away and he said I did the right thing."

My experience has been that class isn't over until it's been bowed out. He's instructing in some capacity. So, I guess I don't see it as being controversial to conclude that he left before class ended and was outside during and after the class, so that when the parent came out they were on neutral ground.

Once again, let's all remember that this is in the context of "nobody died." The situation seems to have worked out. This is A possible area where it could have been either handled better or avoided completely.

 

[Steve]

"The head instructor has the final say on promotions, so you'll need to take it up with him" might have been a good line to try.

Yeah, he said that and, as I said, that was good. That's why I said, "deferring to the head instructor was good, too."

 

[Headhunter]

How do you figure? If the OP had bowed out with the rest of the class and then stepped outside to take a phone call while the CI was still inside teaching the next class or cleaning up, do you really think the parent would have been less likely to follow him out and start the confrontation? Why would that have been a factor in a parent's willingness to cause a scene about his kid not getting promoted?

What happened was the kids class finished and there's always a couple minutes before the adults class starts to clear the kids out and instructors to have a quick break etc. I saw I had a missed call so went outside to call back as it'd be quieter and wouldn't disturb anyone if the adults started while I was still talking. Then once I'd done I was heading back in as the parent and the kid were leaving and then that all happened.

Honestly why I have to explain in this much detail is baffling would Steve like to know what I ate before training to or what I was listening to on the radio because maybe that affected my mental state during or maybe he wants to know every detail of my phone call to know what my mood was.