"So, you think you can take me?"

[Bruno@MT]

Wow, all that just because someone smarted off to me and I smarted back. . . . . I get beat up or in the hospital, sued and or lost my job, my family and me dead . . .wow! Amazing how a martial artist can come up with all those negative possibilities instead of believing in a fellow martial artist. Maybe I should stay at home, don't go out, seclude myself, become a hermit because at anytime if I go out, I might come in contact with people, treat an as*hole like he treated me, piss em off and end up dead.

Yeah, everything you've said is bound to happen. And then again, maybe not, at least it hasn't up to this point.

I didn't say that.

YOU said you'd egg them on until they give the first punch so that you can beat them up.

I said that it would not be the good approach because IF everything goes right, then you win nothing. absolutely nothing. Otoh there is a multitude of things that could go wrong. So why would you do that? It doesn't make sense. There is no result that would actually improve your life. The only thing you'd get out of it is a sense of victory for beating up a couple of stupid kids. Which is not what MA is about in my opinion.

Furthermore, actually posting on the internet that you would do this makes you look immature. And as with the actions you describe, in the best case, nothing comes of it. Worst case, this will come back to haunt you. So again. That does not make sense.

If someone attacks you you should defend yourself, no question about it. Egging on a stupid kid so that you can beat him into a pulp has NOTHING to do with self defense however.

EDIT: Just in case you laugh off my remarks about posting this on the internet, I'll give a couple of examples.
Belgian IRS has started browsing facebook and doing simple google searches. You'd be surprised how many people say things like 'My dad gave me this cell phone and I can use it as much as I want because it is registered to his business' or 'we had a great holiday and we didn't have to pay because he put it in the books as business travel'. If you have a name / alias and possibly a couple of relevant keywords, then 1 hour of searching will turn up a lot of information.

And then there is the case of the armed criminal who got busted carrying an illegal gun while on parole. And the defense lawyer succesfully argued that it was plausible the cop had planted it because of the fact that on his myspace page, he referred to 'training day' as a course on proper police procedure and he had set his status to 'mischievous' or something like that. Whether that is right or wrong does not matter. It still happens.

 

[tshadowchaser]

going back to the opening post
I have been there a few times before. Never had it end up in a fight.
Once I simply said I had been out of practice a while and the young man looked in good shape so I doubted it would be much fun for him.
A couple times I simply said that if he wanted to find out he should stop by the school and sign up.
Once I simply asked if the young man had insurance

 

[celtic_crippler]

I keep legal waivers on hand for instances like these.

My response is always simply, "Sign the waiver and get on the mat."

I've yet to have anybody actually sign one.

 

[MJS]

Wow, all that just because someone smarted off to me and I smarted back. . . . . I get beat up or in the hospital, sued and or lost my job, my family and me dead . . .wow! Amazing how a martial artist can come up with all those negative possibilities instead of believing in a fellow martial artist. Maybe I should stay at home, don't go out, seclude myself, become a hermit because at anytime if I go out, I might come in contact with people, treat an as*hole like he treated me, piss em off and end up dead.

Yeah, everything you've said is bound to happen. And then again, maybe not, at least it hasn't up to this point.

Actually what he might be trying to say, is that we, as the martial artists, should recognize whats worth fighting for and whats not. In this case, the more mature person, the one with the common sense, should see, that some young punk, trying to act like a tough guy, who really made no physical threat of violence, is one that is just not worth it.

If we stop and think about it, what you're saying is really no better than what the punk kid is saying. Nobody said that you had to turn into a hermit and never leave your house, just to use some common sense.

I'd have been in hundreds of fights if I engaged with everyone that called me a name, asked me if I could take them in a fight or flipped me off in traffic. In the majority of those cases, it just wasn't worth it.

Looks like you missed his point completely, but I'm not surprised.

 

[MJS]

I didn't say that.

YOU said you'd egg them on until they give the first punch so that you can beat them up.

I said that it would not be the good approach because IF everything goes right, then you win nothing. absolutely nothing. Otoh there is a multitude of things that could go wrong. So why would you do that? It doesn't make sense. There is no result that would actually improve your life. The only thing you'd get out of it is a sense of victory for beating up a couple of stupid kids. Which is not what MA is about in my opinion.

Furthermore, actually posting on the internet that you would do this makes you look immature. And as with the actions you describe, in the best case, nothing comes of it. Worst case, this will come back to haunt you. So again. That does not make sense.

If someone attacks you you should defend yourself, no question about it. Egging on a stupid kid so that you can beat him into a pulp has NOTHING to do with self defense however.

EDIT: Just in case you laugh off my remarks about posting this on the internet, I'll give a couple of examples.
Belgian IRS has started browsing facebook and doing simple google searches. You'd be surprised how many people say things like 'My dad gave me this cell phone and I can use it as much as I want because it is registered to his business' or 'we had a great holiday and we didn't have to pay because he put it in the books as business travel'. If you have a name / alias and possibly a couple of relevant keywords, then 1 hour of searching will turn up a lot of information.

And then there is the case of the armed criminal who got busted carrying an illegal gun while on parole. And the defense lawyer succesfully argued that it was plausible the cop had planted it because of the fact that on his myspace page, he referred to 'training day' as a course on proper police procedure and he had set his status to 'mischievous' or something like that. Whether that is right or wrong does not matter. It still happens.

Another great post! Its obvious, very obvious, that your point was missed. Underlined part is mine....my thoughts exactly. For myself, if I can talk the situation down, I'm going to do it, and I have many times, and its worked. Of course, there're always those times, when there is no time for talking. Someone comes running at me, red faced, hands clenched, I'm not going to start talking. On the other hand, as we both said, to egg someone on, especially in this case, where we're talking about a kid, who is saying this to an adult, I would think, the adult, would be adult enough, to have enough common sense and not give in.

 

[ATC]

The martial arts are about so much more then introducing pain to an opponent. I see it as a means to stop fighting, not start fighting.

A true possibility for sure, from age 5-20 something, tons of fights. From 20 something until now, not a single fight.

I have had many opportunities to fight and would have taken each opportunity when younger, but now I find it easy to not engage and more satisfying as well.

However not sure if it is the training or the mellowing with age thing, someone should do a study.

 

[Xinglu]

A true possibility for sure, from age 5-20 something, tons of fights. From 20 something until now, not a single fight.

I have had many opportunities to fight and would have taken each opportunity when younger, but now I find it easy to not engage and more satisfying as well.

However not sure if it is the training or the mellowing with age thing, someone should do a study.

I'm certain that it is a combination of both. With life experience come perspective. Also the more training you have, the more responsibility you hold. That responsibility if abused can seriously hurt someone. And that awareness leads a person to seek alternative methods of conflict resolution than fist and foot.

 

[Twin Fist]

I keep legal waivers on hand for instances like these.

My response is always simply, "Sign the waiver and get on the mat."

I've yet to have anybody actually sign one.

Word

 

[Aikicomp]

The martial arts are about so much more then introducing pain to an opponent. I see it as a means to stop fighting, not start fighting.

Exactly the reason I posted what I did. Martial Arts is not about hurting people...it's about helping them.

I agree 100%.

OP, you handled yourself very well.

I train in public sometimes, and I think constantly about people coming up to me and asking me this very question / initiating something. I figure though I need to train and whats meant to happen will happen. Some friends have jokingly asked me this before and I just laugh and say, "Nah man."

I've done a flashy kick after someone play punched me before, stopping right before their face, in which everyone all said "Thats Purple Dragon for you!" Thats it for me, though.

How can you AGREE with my post AND say he handled himself very well?
I think you misunderstood my post.

Michael

 

[Big Don]

Exactly the reason I posted what I did. Martial Arts is not about hurting people...it's about helping them.

Heh? What? Martial Arts is properly applied violence. Martial Arts helps the proficient in Martial Arts, and possibly, those they choose to help. Other than that, it is very much about hurting people, so they cannot hurt you.

 

[shesulsa]

Now, Don ... there's absolutely nothing wrong with helping someone to the floor really, really fast.

 

[Big Don]

Now, Don ... there's absolutely nothing wrong with helping someone to the floor really, really fast.

Oh, Hell, of course not.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Heh? What? Martial Arts is properly applied violence. Martial Arts helps the proficient in Martial Arts, and possibly, those they choose to help. Other than that, it is very much about hurting people, so they cannot hurt you.

I see there are some people who have not forgotten what the first word of martial arts means.

To all of your negative replies to my response, you act like I'm the one who's starting the approach. No, my response is to get their intertions out as soon as possible. If they are not serious, they will walk away from my answer. But if they have something in mind, it starts the altercation on my terms. You all act like people today are civilized, expecting some ******* asking the question to immediately back down from you if you say no to their query if you can take them. In my experience, anyone asking you that question is either looking for trouble or wanting to see if they can hurt someone. Nowadays when asked that question from some young person, you have to worry about it coming from some wannabe gang member, bully, or dick trying to prove himself.

Also, from a majority of the responses, I think most of you have never had to put your training into real use. I have on several occasions due to senarios much like the question which started this thread. The first 2 or three times, I answered it with a no or I'm just a beginner so I don't know what I'm doing. And they've pulled a weapon (2 x by knife, 1 x by handgun). Now, with 37 years of experience, I've found that it's better to piss them off so when they decide to pull that weapon, throw that punch or whatever, they are enraged and unable to think straight. Makes it much easier to defend myself when they are mad and can't think straight and I have a clear, cool, collected head. Like handling a person who's completely drunk, it is much easier to do.

Yes, the idea of martial arts training is to try to prevent an altercation. But also, it's to teach you not to freeze, ***** out, or back down, and just do what you need to do to survive the situation the best way you can. I am a martial artist so I would much rather be tried by 12 instead of carried by 6.

martial - 1; of, related to, or suited for war or a warrior. 2; relating to an army or to military life. 3; experienced in or inclined to war, warlike. 4; of, or characteristic of war.

P.S. I don't train out in public anymore because I've been approached 1 too many times with the question think you can take me? and forced to prove I can.

 

[Tensei85]

Just to state my thoughts on this topic:

I would say yea definitely "Wu Shu" - 武術 which refers to "Military Skill"

To be honest Military Skill's are for combat thus for killing the enemy, that in itself is a truth. However unfortunate it may be. It was a means to efficiently and intelligently kill the opponent.

Has it lost some of its luster & grandeur, probably...
As most of us no longer have a need to kill the opponent, but rather to defend ourselves.

So I think as for Martial Arts now a days each of us follow one of the following we practice Martial Arts for either: Health/Fitness, Sports, Self Defense/Combat, or even as a hobby. If there are more sorry for the exclusion.

But I think regardless of what you train for, it's always best to end the conflict before it begins and seek an alternate route or path as not to use the combat skills that you train. That I feel is the best way to respect ourselves, our teachers and our ancestors. Its not worth it to waste there efforts on a few street punks if at all possible.

Just for the record I'm not saying anyone's wrong or right, just stating my thoughts on this topic.

But for the OP, I'm glad it didn't come down to you having to use your skills. Most likely it would have turned out bad either way.

 

[geezer]

P.S. I don't train out in public anymore because I've been approached 1 too many times with the question think you can take me? and forced to prove I can.

Zep, I don't know if your problems result from your environment or your attitude. But I frequently train in public parks, and like you have been in the martial arts since the 70's. And, I've had a few encounters with rude people. But I've defused them all without ever having to back down, leave, or get in a fight. Maybe that makes me a "*****" as you put it, but I've never had anyone pull a knife or gun on me while I was teaching. And, frankly, I'm good with that.

Oh, and with my approach, I still enjoy training in parks sometimes.

 

[MJS]

I see there are some people who have not forgotten what the first word of martial arts means.

Nope, didn't forget.

To all of your negative replies to my response, you act like I'm the one who's starting the approach. No, my response is to get their intertions out as soon as possible. If they are not serious, they will walk away from my answer. But if they have something in mind, it starts the altercation on my terms. You all act like people today are civilized, expecting some as*hole asking the question to immediately back down from you if you say no to their query if you can take them. In my experience, anyone asking you that question is either looking for trouble or wanting to see if they can hurt someone. Nowadays when asked that question from some young person, you have to worry about it coming from some wannabe gang member, bully, or d*ck trying to prove himself.

Gee, thats funny. I recall a day, a few years ago, while I was walking my dog thru my condo complex. A car drove by in the opposite direction that I was walking. The occupants of the car were probably in their 20's. I made eye contact with the passenger, and given his look back at me, I honestly thought that I knew him, but didn't immediately recognize him. I continued to glance as the car drove past, but kept on walking. A few seconds later, I hear, "You got a ****ing problem?" to which I turn around and see the passenger out of the car, driver still inside. I stopped, turned around, looked at the tough guy and replied, "No" and kept standing there, looking at him with my dog. Mr. Tough Guy proceeded to walk to one of the units. This tells me that he didn't get the reaction that he either expected or was hoping for, because I kept standing there. So, he was either too much of a ***** to approach me, or the dog (Shepherd mix) who was also looking at him, made him nervous.

Now, had this guy started walking towards me, of course, I'd have defended myself, but I get the impression from you and your posts, that after he said that to me, my reply should have been, "Yeah, I got a ****ing problem, you mother ****er. Wanna make something of it!!!!!"

Another incident at my wifes Christmas party at the company she works for. I knew of this guy, due to the fact that I worked there too, for a period of time, but this guy was at the bar, obviously pretty drunk. I had nothing to drink, but was standing there to get a soda. Made eye contact with the tough drunk, and he asks, "What the **** are you looking at?" to which I replied, "nothing," got my drink and went back to the table. I didn't cower, didn't say I was sorry for making eye contact, nothing...nothing more than a simple one word reply.

Again, if the tables turned, and he came at me, of course I'm going to defend myself, but something stupid like this..LOL, come on man, I got better things to do than fight with some dumb ****, whos had too much to drink, and is trying to impress the others he was with.

In my experiences, I've found that the majority of *******s that I've dealt with, back down, simply because they didn't get the reaction from me they were hoping for. I did nothing wrong, and didn't egg this guy on.

Lets see...you've got 37yrs exp. under your belt. What are you, in your 50's or so? If thats the case, yes, I'd say thats pretty childish of you, a grown man, to challenge a punk in his teens. Yes, that makes you a real big man doesn't it?

Also, from a majority of the responses, I think most of you have never had to put your training into real use. I have on several occasions due to senarios much like the question which started this thread. The first 2 or three times, I answered it with a no or I'm just a beginner so I don't know what I'm doing. And they've pulled a weapon (2 x by knife, 1 x by handgun). Now, with 37 years of experience, I've found that it's better to piss them off so when they decide to pull that weapon, throw that punch or whatever, they are enraged and unable to think straight. Makes it much easier to defend myself when they are mad and can't think straight and I have a clear, cool, collected head. Like handling a person who's completely drunk, it is much easier to do.

Oh come on now, don't go making assumptions. You know what happens then. . And after 20+ yrs experience, I've found it best to assess the situation and act accordingly. But you keep on doing what you're doing though. Good luck to you.

Yes, the idea of martial arts training is to try to prevent an altercation. But also, it's to teach you not to freeze, p*ssy out, or back down, and just do what you need to do to survive the situation the best way you can. I am a martial artist so I would much rather be tried by 12 instead of carried by 6.

Never said I was a ***** or backed down. I stood my ground, showing that I was not intimidated. That in itself, chips away at their confidence because they just saw that they were not getting anywhere with me. In both cases that I mentioned, I won. And yes, I too have preached the judged by 12/carried by 6 line. I firmly believe in that. But I also believe in not being stupid either.

 

[MJS]

Zep, I don't know if your problems result from your environment or your attitude. But I frequently train in public parks, and like you have been in the martial arts since the 70's. And, I've had a few encounters with rude people. But I've defused them all without ever having to back down, leave, or get in a fight. Maybe that makes me a "p*ssy" as you put it, but I've never had anyone pull a knife or gun on me while I was teaching. And, frankly, I'm good with that.

Oh, and with my approach, I still enjoy training in parks sometimes.

Good post! Likewise, if someone wants to think I'm a ***** too, thats fine with me. Personally, I'll always pick talking, if possible, over throwing down with someone. Again, the keyword, is if possible, because there are some times when talking isn't an option.

 

[Xinglu]

Zep-

...I get the impression from you and your posts, that after he said that to me, my reply should have been, "Yeah, I got a ****ing problem, you mother ****er. Wanna make something of it!!!!!"

This is exactly what I got from your posts as well. And such an attitude is never acceptable from a "warrior." And neither the Chinese or Japanese Martial arts propagate that form of thinking. Your handle implies you study Wingchun. I wonder how the Buddhist monks and nuns that formulated that style would view your approach...

Lets see...you've got 37yrs exp. under your belt. What are you, in your 50's or so? If thats the case, yes, I'd say thats pretty childish of you, a grown man, to challenge a punk in his teens. Yes, that makes you a real big man doesn't it?

Once again, agreed. I would expect egging on and talking one's self into a fight from a teenager. They usually have an ego to prove something to, but a man in his mid-forties on? Since leaving middle school I've stopped looking to get myself into altercations, and in 22 years of training, I have only been in three that I could not talk myself out of or avoid all together. However, if I had taken your attitude, I probably would run out of fingers and toes to count them on by now, and most likely be in jail.

I see there are some people who have not forgotten what the first word of martial arts means.

And it would seem you have forgotten the "warriors" code.

To all of your negative replies to my response, you act like I'm the one who's starting the approach. No, my response is to get their intertions out as soon as possible. If they are not serious, they will walk away from my answer.

I disagree. In my experience you have just challenged their ego. Now they have something to prove, especially if their friends or girlfriend is watching or involved.

Also, from a majority of the responses, I think most of you have never had to put your training into real use. I have on several occasions due to senarios much like the question which started this thread.

Good for you. Now just because people disagree with you they must be inexperienced. Stellar logic. Of course, you may believe anything that makes you feel better about your position, but I can assure you that in my case, you're wrong. Furthermore, perhaps those who never have been are just far better at self defense then the rest us by not going to places that are high risk or are just more aware and able to avoid potential "hotbeds." Heck maybe their "verbal gongfu" is better. But to assume they are a p***y?! Unfounded. Perhaps they are just smarter then those of us who have? Maybe they learned a lesson that took some people longer or who have never learned it even in their 37 years of training.

Yes, the idea of martial arts training is to try to prevent an altercation.

And yet you promote the escalation of something verbal into a direct physical altercation. This seems incredibly myopic to me.

I am a martial artist so I would much rather be tried by 12 instead of carried by 6.

Rhetoric. The vast majority of people not just Martial Artist will agree with that. Pragmatically, it is never just those two options. I have no care in the world if someone is after my ego, I only care if they are after my health and well-being or the health and well-being of those around me. This kid was seeking an ego stroke (which he was denied). If that ego was assaulted, he very well might have wanted to find out. Since he was denied the opportunity of either he left. Conflict resolution, means recognizing what is really going on, and handling it appropriately. Not challenging them and turing a verbal altercation into a physical one.

I don't train out in public anymore because I've been approached 1 too many times with the question think you can take me? and forced to prove I can.

I'd be willing to bet that in more cases then not, you chose rather than were forced to prove it, by doing exactly what you've illustrated here.

 

[Xinglu]

Good post! Likewise, if someone wants to think I'm a ***** too, thats fine with me. Personally, I'll always pick talking, if possible, over throwing down with someone. Again, the keyword, is if possible, because there are some times when talking isn't an option.

Exactly. I have nothing to prove to anyone. I choose peace over violence everyday of the week. But, if I have no other option, I have no problem defending myself or others.

Not only has Martial arts training taught me to not strive for a violent resolution to all conflicts but my time in the Military taught me to recognize the amount of force necessary to do the job. The Army combat MOS's have a lot of large ego's with something to prove flying around. You learn quickly what is a challenge, what is posturing, and what isn't.

I have no interest in peacock dances, and IMHO no martial artist should.

 

[just2kicku]

Nope, didn't forget.



Gee, thats funny. I recall a day, a few years ago, while I was walking my dog thru my condo complex. A car drove by in the opposite direction that I was walking. The occupants of the car were probably in their 20's. I made eye contact with the passenger, and given his look back at me, I honestly thought that I knew him, but didn't immediately recognize him. I continued to glance as the car drove past, but kept on walking. A few seconds later, I hear, "You got a ****ing problem?" to which I turn around and see the passenger out of the car, driver still inside. I stopped, turned around, looked at the tough guy and replied, "No" and kept standing there, looking at him with my dog. Mr. Tough Guy proceeded to walk to one of the units. This tells me that he didn't get the reaction that he either expected or was hoping for, because I kept standing there. So, he was either too much of a ***** to approach me, or the dog (Shepherd mix) who was also looking at him, made him nervous.

Now, had this guy started walking towards me, of course, I'd have defended myself, but I get the impression from you and your posts, that after he said that to me, my reply should have been, "Yeah, I got a ****ing problem, you mother ****er. Wanna make something of it!!!!!"

Another incident at my wifes Christmas party at the company she works for. I knew of this guy, due to the fact that I worked there too, for a period of time, but this guy was at the bar, obviously pretty drunk. I had nothing to drink, but was standing there to get a soda. Made eye contact with the tough drunk, and he asks, "What the **** are you looking at?" to which I replied, "nothing," got my drink and went back to the table. I didn't cower, didn't say I was sorry for making eye contact, nothing...nothing more than a simple one word reply.

Again, if the tables turned, and he came at me, of course I'm going to defend myself, but something stupid like this..LOL, come on man, I got better things to do than fight with some dumb ****, whos had too much to drink, and is trying to impress the others he was with.

In my experiences, I've found that the majority of *******s that I've dealt with, back down, simply because they didn't get the reaction from me they were hoping for. I did nothing wrong, and didn't egg this guy on.

Lets see...you've got 37yrs exp. under your belt. What are you, in your 50's or so? If thats the case, yes, I'd say thats pretty childish of you, a grown man, to challenge a punk in his teens. Yes, that makes you a real big man doesn't it?



Oh come on now, don't go making assumptions. You know what happens then. . And after 20+ yrs experience, I've found it best to assess the situation and act accordingly. But you keep on doing what you're doing though. Good luck to you.



Never said I was a ***** or backed down. I stood my ground, showing that I was not intimidated. That in itself, chips away at their confidence because they just saw that they were not getting anywhere with me. In both cases that I mentioned, I won. And yes, I too have preached the judged by 12/carried by 6 line. I firmly believe in that. But I also believe in not being stupid either.

Good Post! Backing down in any situation, if possible, always the best option. If they want to think you're a ***** for doing so, then so be it. That gives you (you in general, not you Mike) the upper hand if they decide to attack you anyway.