So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[Flying Crane]

The reason I say that is that I have heard instructors men in the journey, tell me that this technique doesn’t work or you need to change it to that.

Then I see another instructor show me.... how the attack is supposed to be done to set the catalyst to make the technique work.

I'm not sure I'd put a lot of trust in an instructor who instilled a belief that an attack has to be done a certain way, to make a certain technique work. If this is what you believe, given the chaotic and random nature of fighting, I'd say there's a good chance that none of your techniques would work. Ever.

 

[Doc]

That's a nice Ad Hominem attack...

Maybe I am not making my point clear. Ed Parker was a genius. Not only did he create a new and unique system of fighting, ...

correct

he also came to many ground breaking discoveries into the mechanics of the human body.

Incorrect.

He then took .... knowledge and built a system around it.

Correct

That is Ed Parkers system and what we often refer to as EPAK.

SOME refer to

These discoveries include: Concepts and Principles of motion, Zone cancellation, Ranging, and many others.

These were not 'discoveries,' but explorations of existing material.

He also created a curriculum so that there would be uniformity so that a black belt in one school should have the same material as one at another school.

The operative word being SHOULD. This was only on paper, not reality as instructors operated autonomously in business and promotions.

This is where I think that much of info is lost or where many upper ranks don’t have all the knowledge.

I would agree except I wouldn't say 'lost.' In most cases, it's more likely they never had it.

I say this because I have shared the mat with many high ranking black belts in the system.

Which system?

 

[Doc]

I'm not sure I'd put a lot of trust in an instructor who instilled a belief that an attack has to be done a certain way, to make a certain technique work. If this is what you believe, given the chaotic and random nature of fighting, I'd say there's a good chance that none of your techniques would work. Ever.

Sorry sir, but all attacks fall within certain parameters as dictated by body mechanics, and the "Psycology of Confrontations," and to a certain extent are always predictable.

Even in training for 'randon events,' you must pick a componant of the 'anticpated radomness' and train for it within a strictly identifiable and repeatable physical sequence. Although in practice, it may appear chaotic and random, it is only to those not well trained or familiar with what is occurring.

"Spontaneity is just accessing a block of well understood and trained
material without thinking." - Ron Chapél

(Even 'Ray-Ray' can do it)

 

[KenpoRonin]

Sorry sir, but all attacks fall within certain parameters as dictated by body mechanics, and the "Psycology of Confrontations," and to a certain extent are always predictable.

Even in training for 'randon events,' you must pick a componant of the 'anticpated radomness' and train for it within a strictly identifiable and repeatable physical sequence. Although in practice, it may appear chaotic and random, it is only to those not well trained or familiar with what is occurring.

"Spontaneity is just accessing a block of well understood and trained
material without thinking." - Ron Chapél

(Even 'Ray-Ray' can do it)

Thanks doc for making my point, otherwise why do we have three counters for a rear two hand choke. Because people don't just stand there and put there hands on you and wait for you to do something.

 

[Doc]

Thanks doc for making my point, otherwise why do we have three counters for a rear two hand choke. Because people don't just stand there and put there hands on you and wait for you to do something.

On that sir, we can be sure.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sorry sir, but all attacks fall within certain parameters as dictated by body mechanics, and the "Psycology of Confrontations," and to a certain extent are always predictable.

Even in training for 'randon events,' you must pick a componant of the 'anticpated radomness' and train for it within a strictly identifiable and repeatable physical sequence. Although in practice, it may appear chaotic and random, it is only to those not well trained or familiar with what is occurring.

"Spontaneity is just accessing a block of well understood and trained
material without thinking." - Ron Chapél

(Even 'Ray-Ray' can do it)

Of course.

But the prior post gives the impression that one is waiting for a specific attack, and some variation in how it might come would suddenly make the defense technique unworkable. Of course attacks tend to come in certain ways that are predictable within some amount of reason, but the impression given was that if the attack wasn't "just right", then the technique was useless. But if one is skilled with their techniques, this range of randomness within the predictability should not be a problem.

 

[KenpoRonin]

correct

Incorrect.

Correct

SOME refer to

These were not 'discoveries,' but explorations of existing material.

The operative word being SHOULD. This was only on paper, not reality as instructors operated autonomously in business and promotions.

I would agree except I wouldn't say 'lost.' In most cases, it's more likely they never had it.

Which system?

I agree that when it comes to the material he explored and revised. But it is the discoveries in motion that formed these changes. for instance look at the inward block. In the 60's it was done where the motion followed a 90 degree angle. Then he discovered the angle of scaption and the block now is executed like throwing a ball overhand. For this motion newly discovered changed a pre-existing technique becomeing more effective.

I agree, most never had it


EPAK, I am referring to many names in the Journey and I have studied Our art.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Of course.

But the prior post gives the impression that one is waiting for a specific attack, and some variation in how it might come would suddenly make the defense technique unworkable. Of course attacks tend to come in certain ways that are predictable within some amount of reason, but the impression given was that if the attack wasn't "just right", then the technique was useless. But if one is skilled with their techniques, this range of randomness within the predictability should not be a problem.

I am not saying you waiting for a specific attack, I am saying that you are attacked a specific way and that is the catalyst for a specific technique. Like a said why is it that we have three different attacks for two hand rear choke?

 

[Flying Crane]

I am not saying you waiting for a specific attack, I am saying that you are attacked a specific way and that is the catalyst for a specific technique. Like a said why is it that we have three different attacks for two hand rear choke?

If I misunderstood your message, that's fine, but that was what I got out of it. You have made yourself clear and now I understand better what you are trying to say.

Regarding the rear choke: given my lack of experience with Parker curriculum (my kenpo is from Tracys) I am not at all sure to what you are referencing. I would be happy to consider your point if you give some more information.

 

[Doc]

Of course.

But the prior post gives the impression that one is waiting for a specific attack, and some variation in how it might come would suddenly make the defense technique unworkable. Of course attacks tend to come in certain ways that are predictable within some amount of reason, but the impression given was that if the attack wasn't "just right", then the technique was useless. But if one is skilled with their techniques, this range of randomness within the predictability should not be a problem.

Once again, agreed. Unfortunately for many what he states is true. When studying and training for a particular type of assault, there will always be what I consider minor variables, that should be anticipated, accounted for, and negated by a well formulated and designed technique sequence.

"Alternating Maces," (2 hand push from the front) is a good example.

Variables may include; Both hands push high, both hands push low, one hand high, one hand low, right leg forward, left leg forward, push follow through, push followed by a punch, and feint push followed by a punch, push followed by a grapple a high, or grapple low, as examples.

The technique sequence should cover all of these 'variables' without significantly altering the technique sequence, and if it doesn't, teachers and students should take another look.

Your point is well taken sir.

 

[Doc]

I am not saying you waiting for a specific attack, I am saying that you are attacked a specific way and that is the catalyst for a specific technique.

You are correct sir as I see it. I think you both are. Just a minor misunderstanding, bred by the medium of choice for communications.

 

[Flying Crane]

You are correct sir as I see it. I think you both are. Just a minor misunderstanding, bred by the medium of choice for communications.

The beauty of the internet...

 

[KenpoRonin]

If you wanted to say that some have more of the picture than others, or are better at it, I would have agreed with you 100%. But that wasn't stated, or inferred. You stated that logic dictated that someone had the whole shebang.

Actually my point was that there was one person who had more of the system than any other. I never said all, nor would I Parker was constantly changing so I would even say he didn't have it all.


[/quote]As a history point, Parker spoke about a Philosophers Hoody (my spoof word) which he would grant to a successor...someone he deemed had the whole pic. He never gave it to anyone. One of the guys he preened to be a successor, he also fired...then was around with several more years of development befroe passing. An earlier guy he preened for successor took the knowledge, and split with it to form his own association. After that, he was a bit more conservative about giving ANYBODY the entire picture.

All we were saying on this board, which you seemed to disagree with (and I could be wrong), was that no one guy had it all. There are some closer than others, but even they lack some of the stuff that Mr. Parker apparently felt they ought to have had to earn that distinction. I'll go on record saying this: Mr. Tatum smokes. Faster and more knowledgeable than I'll ever be. Closer to Mr. P than I was; more knowledgeable in the body of information that IS kenpo than I. Near as I can tell, Clyde is one of his lieutenants. That puts Clyde closer to Mr. Tatum's body of knowledge than I. But also remember this: Mr. Tatum was not the only one close to Parker, or who spent a lot of training time with him. Particularly in the 80's, as he was working on revisions. Mr. Conatser (who posted on this very thread as GoldenDragon7) was a constant companion while Mr. Parker was out on seminar and testing circuits...think he had some access to the old man, and what he thought kenpo should be? Mr. Chapel was not only a long time student, but close personal friend, with Mr. P coming to HIS house to hang out, and they worked together on some of the latest video project that Mr. P was humping out prior to his slipping away. Is it possible he had some insights into what the old man envisioned for kenpo?

There were several core groups that Mr. P was working with independently from each other, each convinced that they were the central/main/core group... on a timeline, these groups were training with Mr. P closer to the time of his death than Mr. Tatum...in other words, after these two men had a parting of the ways. Either they (the people in these groups) were all getting the same thing (which Mr. Tatum may or may not have had access to, as many were also his students), or they were all getting something different. In which case, no one person has the whole puzzle...which seems to be the conclusion of the people that were closest to Mr. Parker, personally and professionally. Of which neither you nor I are one.

To logon on and say "This senior is the best, and closest to what Parker wanted" without knowing the history of the relationships they had, or of the timelines, or even Mr. Parkers peculiar personality characteristics of being diplomatic to your face then limiting your access to resources after you've walked away...this demonstrates, to me (my own opinion), a type of ignorance.

Who did Mr. Parker give the Philosophers cape to? No one. Go figure. And then, with a straight face, and not looking like a fool, tell me that one senior over all the others is the schnizzle.

Best Regards,

Dave[/quote]


I agree and disagree. I agree that when Parker died he did not pass on Excalibur to anyone. I agree that he groomed two individuals both had their falling outs. He also spent the last years of his life trying to give the info to a select few as the “chosen ones”.

As for my ignorance, I do have hard evidence that I use to make my claims, as I had said in a previous post. But those who respond would rather attack me rather than ask what evidence I have or am referring to. He did declare a successor. One of my Students has an issue of Black Belt where Parker named Tatum as his successor. I also had an instructor who has all of Parkers old newsletters where he names three people as being the prodigies. Now we all know that Parker and Tatum had a falling out over something, but a general conscience is that it was business.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I do have hard evidence that I use to make my claims, as I had said in a previous post. He did declare a successor. One of my Students has an issue of Black Belt where Parker named Tatum as his successor. I also had an instructor who has all of Parkers old newsletters where he names three people as being the prodigies. Now we all know that Parker and Tatum had a falling out over something, but a general conscience is that it was business.

Really, please scan that issue and post it. I have the article (Black Belt magazine not newsletters) where Mr. Parker mentioned 3 proteges: Tatum, Palanzo and Kelly. I have never seen and never heard of this issue of Black Belt that flat out names one person as a successor. If there was such an issue there wouldn't be this ongoing debate for the last 16 years. So please show this hard evidence....

 

[jfarnsworth]

.... If there was such an issue there wouldn't be this ongoing debate for the last 16 years. So please show this hard evidence....

Agreed.

 

[Doc]

Really, please scan that issue and post it. I have the article (Black Belt magazine not newsletters) where Mr. Parker mentioned 3 proteges: Tatum, Palanzo and Kelly. I have never seen and never heard of this issue of Black Belt that flat out names one person as a successor. If there was such an issue there wouldn't be this ongoing debate for the last 16 years. So please show this hard evidence....

There was no Black Belt issue where Parker named a successor, and I suspect the gentleman is confusing it with the protegé article. Something Parker publicly later wished he hadn't stated for various reasons. He 'cleaned' it up later by simply saying he [Larry] was A protegé, NOT THE protegé. In the end it was ALL about business, and Larry ran the only Ed Parker owned school that made money at the time.

It should be noted Parker had multiple protegés in multiple areas of his lineage and evolution. Some stayed, but unfortunately most left, also for various reasons. The list is a virtual 'who's who' of Parker associates. This exodus continued until his death with Larry being one of the more well known a few years before he passed, but there were others equally well known, but less publicized who also were 'kicked out.' Larry was never kicked out, but was instead fired from Parker's employ, and chose to leave the association on his own. Had Larry opened his own school, I feel certain Parker would have continued to support him for business reasons if no other.

Now as far as the newletters, remember they were created to support the 'business' of the IKKA and the commercial system. Any so-called protegés would have been for the commercial busines of Kenpo as Larry was, and not all of Parker's interpretations. As an example, I was Parker's "Law Enforcement Proetgé" and worked on material particularly germane to what he considered a major branch in his teaching, yet few had insight to what we were doing. I however, in no way would consider myself a 'protegé' of other aspects of Ed Parker's teaching.

 

[Prada Queen]

Secrets of the Magician of Motion...ED PARKER.
(First appeared in Black Belt Magazine, July 1979)​

By John Corbett

In place of children lost as successors, Parker noted he has taken on
proteges to insure the continuity of the kenpo system.

"My key protege is this kid Larry Tatum," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. He's my number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything. "

The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weapon.

He also named two others he considers proteges, insiders with whom he has shared the full scope of his knowledge, Tom Kelly, who Parker said is the highest-degree black belt at a seventh-degree level, operates a Parker school in Salt Lake City; Joe Palanzo, another former student who Parker said holds a fifth degree black belt, teaches at a school in Baltimore.


If I read this correctly, he lists Tatum as his key guy.

Prada Queen

 

[Bode]

Damn. I guess I better quit SL4 and go study with Mr. Tatum.... see ya later Doc.

 

[Carol]

Damn. I guess I better quit SL4 and go study with Mr. Tatum.... see ya later Doc.

Don't go, Bode

Key protege does not mean successor. "Key" means important. I have a key protege right now at my enginerdy job. This person will not be my successor but this person will be very important to team.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Secrets of the Magician of Motion...ED PARKER.
(First appeared in Black Belt Magazine, July 1979)​

By John Corbett

In place of children lost as successors, Parker noted he has taken on
proteges to insure the continuity of the kenpo system.

"My key protege is this kid Larry Tatum," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. He's my number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything. "

The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weapon.

He also named two others he considers proteges, insiders with whom he has shared the full scope of his knowledge, Tom Kelly, who Parker said is the highest-degree black belt at a seventh-degree level, operates a Parker school in Salt Lake City; Joe Palanzo, another former student who Parker said holds a fifth degree black belt, teaches at a school in Baltimore.


If I read this correctly, he lists Tatum as his key guy.

Prada Queen

Ok maybe I misquoted what I read but if you read into it just a little I do believe that he was giving Tatum all the info, I could be wrong, He was also training with all the time so I would assume that Tatum was going to be handed the throne but because of a dispute over business. So while Parker didn't hand him the title, he most likey is the one with the most information.