So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[KenpoRonin]

Put that in your pipe and smoke it? Are you actually stupid enough to present such simple-minded arrogance about kenpo matters in the faces of men who were Parker black belts before you were born? Is this the level of respect to the arts and it's seniors that Mr. Tatum taught you to show?

You really don't get it, do you. You want to tout mat-time as a criteria, after discrediting the decade-plus of mat-time others had with Parker before Mr. Tatum made black, and well after he and Mr. Parker parted ways. 4 years is all, and Tatum had twice that...yet there were guys that were comfortable on the fringe, with more time than tatum and the last super-groups put together. Guys who were seniors when Tatum started; guys who were as closely active before and after Mr. Tatum leaving Santa Monica.

The tone of your post is despicable. Your inability to absorb simple reasoning while arguing on the side of logic, embarrassing. I'd spell it out for you, but you would still not get it. Like I said before...you can't. It's like trying to fit 10 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket.

Oddly, I don't expect this kind of behavior from 1st generation Tatum students (well, Clyde on Bullshido, but that's a given...we expect Clyde to be Clyde). Do yourself a favor: Call Robert McRobertson for some help on tracking threads and replying point/counter-point. He and I have disagreed probably more than we've agreed, but at least he has a brain with some logic that can be applied to making or countering points online (with more than "nyah-nyah"). I would venture to say your education in kenpo history is extremely biased, and far from complete. As is your education in critical thinking skills and processes.

My own two-cents; you're welcome to disagree.

Dave

You assume to much, first I am not a student of Tatum. You have no I idea what my knowledge base and who I have talked to and where I got my info. Second Why on GOD's Green Earth would I show respect to people who call me names. I have not offered any personal attacks on any senior. I have just made a case that There is one who has more of the system than the rest, one who is teaching most of "the correct system" over all the other instructors.

Thirdly your problem is that you have been living in such an illusion for so long that you refuse to look at truth when it smacks you in the face. I bet if Parker came down and smacked you in the face you still would refuse to believe.

And what simple reasoning am I unable to grasp. Since Parker died many seniors have taken Kenpo into their own direction. I get that. I have left instructors for that same reason. As Doc agreed and Parker said in the article many of these Seniors never got all the information and when youdon't have it all you have to try and figure it out for yourself. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. There were only three mentioned to have all of it. You were not one of them, sir.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Put that in your pipe and smoke it? Are you actually stupid enough to present such simple-minded arrogance about kenpo matters in the faces of men who were Parker black belts before you were born? Is this the level of respect to the arts and it's seniors that Mr. Tatum taught you to show?

You really don't get it, do you. You want to tout mat-time as a criteria, after discrediting the decade-plus of mat-time others had with Parker before Mr. Tatum made black, and well after he and Mr. Parker parted ways. 4 years is all, and Tatum had twice that...yet there were guys that were comfortable on the fringe, with more time than tatum and the last super-groups put together. Guys who were seniors when Tatum started; guys who were as closely active before and after Mr. Tatum leaving Santa Monica.

The tone of your post is despicable. Your inability to absorb simple reasoning while arguing on the side of logic, embarrassing. I'd spell it out for you, but you would still not get it. Like I said before...you can't. It's like trying to fit 10 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket.

Oddly, I don't expect this kind of behavior from 1st generation Tatum students (well, Clyde on Bullshido, but that's a given...we expect Clyde to be Clyde). Do yourself a favor: Call Robert McRobertson for some help on tracking threads and replying point/counter-point. He and I have disagreed probably more than we've agreed, but at least he has a brain with some logic that can be applied to making or countering points online (with more than "nyah-nyah"). I would venture to say your education in kenpo history is extremely biased, and far from complete. As is your education in critical thinking skills and processes.

My own two-cents; you're welcome to disagree.

Dave

You assume to much, first I am not a student of Tatum. You have no I idea what my knowledge base and who I have talked to who have trained with and where I got my info. Second Why on GOD's Green Earth would I show respect to people who call me names. I have not offered any personal attacks on any senior. I have just made a case that there is one who has more of the system than the rest, one who is teaching most of "the correct system" over all the other instructors.

Thirdly your problem is that you have been living in such an illusion for so long that you refuse to look at truth when it smacks you in the face. I bet if Parker came down and told you to your face you still would refuse to believe.

And what simple reasoning am I unable to grasp. Since Parker died many seniors have taken Kenpo into their own direction. I get that. I have left instructors for that same reason. As Doc agreed and Parker said in the article many of these Seniors never got all the information and when one doesn't have it all one would have to try and figure it out for oneself. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. There were only three mentioned to been getting all of it. You were not one of them, sir.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

He ya go read it and weep

…He has worried over former students would leave and open up Kenpo studios of their own. I always had the fear guys taking off being disloyal and opening up on their own, so I left out a lot of stuff. Parker said he found some students resenting… that he had hidden knowledge from him. Quote they were somewhat hurt in a way he admitted but they would still feel happy. They are (the now complete techniques) some minor additions in the whole puzzle. I am teaching those who stuck by me. The fact is I was going to reserve the knowledge for my children and my son. He is not interested in the martial arts he studies but his heart is in the fine arts. In place of children walk the successors he has taken on protégés to insure the continuality of the Kenpo system.

My key protege is this kid Larry Tatum," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. He's my number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything. "

The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weapon.

He also named two others he considers proteges, insiders with whom he has shared the full scope of his knowledge, Tom Kelly, who Parker said is the highest-degree black belt at a seventh-degree level, operates a Parker school in Salt Lake City; Joe Palanzo, another former student who Parker said holds a fifth degree black belt, teaches at a school in Baltimore.


Now lets look at the facts these other two proteges didn't get to spend as much mat time as Tatum one lived Salt Lake and the other in Baltimore.

So who had more mat time? Who is listed as the KEY GUY

Websters - Key; of chief or critical importance; pivotal.

Sure they had a falling out, but Tatum was the Key guy for how long. No one before him had all the information and how many after him were able to get it? We are talking what 4 years Tatum had twice that long to get all of it.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

1) So you post the same exact article plus another portion of it that doesn't support your argument at all as it mentions three proteges while you're trying to prove that one is the man.

2) Then you add more assumptions about who was where how long because self admitedly you weren't there. And you use mat time as a qualifier. OK, 'Doc' Chapel had more mat time before Mr. Tatum showed up, was still with Mr. Parker while Mr. Tatum was there, and was still with Mr. Parker after Mr. Tatum left. So I guess Doc is "the man" since we're now using assumed mat time as an indicator.

3) Then you define "key" as critically important and pivotal but it does not mean only or sole. Therefore it's a self-defeating statement.

4) And you post an article that was seen by most memebers of this board prior to today as though it was new and revelating "hard" evidence. :rofl:

Oh, it's hard evidence alright. Evidence that even when Mr. Tatum was "the key man" Parker still had at least two other men he would put in his place should Tatum "not work out". And if history serves Mr. Tatum didn't workout. I guess the WKKA headquartered here in Baltimore is the best after all. It has TWO of the THREE protoges running it and two is more than one right?

yet another :bs: argument that is :deadhorse:

 

[Flying Crane]

What is this board about… Who is teaching the correct system? I am just answering that question. Don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer.

I didn't ask the original question, but it's been an interesting discussion. I assume you are pushing Mr. Tatum as the rightful heir because you belong to his group? I assume this is what you were taught in your training? If I'm wrong about these assumptions, feel free to let me know.

I don't push anybody's agenda, I'm not even from EPAK; I'm from the Tracy's lineage. But I honestly think the question is moot. There is no "true successor", everyone of those who learned from Mr. Parker teach and train to the best of their abilities. Probably some are better than others, but it cannot be quantifiably measured and determined. As Doc stated in an earlier post, the answer to the question is, Your teacher is teaching the right way, until You find someone who can teach you better. That is the fairest, and most reasonable answer I have seen so far.

Mr. Parker is no longer in the picture. It is right that his students move forward and do things as they see fit. I personally don't see the relevance in arguing over who does it how Mr. Parker wanted it done. Mr. Parker isn't here to give those instructions, and he probably would have made more changes in the meantime, had he not passed away when he did. So what is held up as "how Mr. Parker wanted it" today, probably isn't even accurate compared to what it might have become, had Mr. Parker not passed away.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

True. Personally I would have preferred a note on my Black Belt Certificate.

Jeff

Amen

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Mr. Parker is no longer in the picture. It is right that his students move forward and do things as they see fit. I personally don't see the relevance in arguing over who does it how Mr. Parker wanted it done. Mr. Parker isn't here to give those instructions, and he probably would have made more changes in the meantime, had he not passed away when he did. So what is held up as "how Mr. Parker wanted it" today, probably isn't even accurate compared to what it might have become, had Mr. Parker not passed away.

Couldn't have said that any better.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

You assume to much, first I am not a student of Tatum.

"Brian has been involved in the martial arts for over ten years. A 1st degree Black Belt under Larry Tatum who teaches Ed Parker’s American Kenpo Karate, Brian has also trained in traditional American Kenpo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He has competed in several karate tournaments, including first place wins in Stan Witz’s World Championships held here in Las Vegas, NV. Brian has also trained several regional and national champions in various divisions over the past four years.

Brian is a UNLV graduate and is also actively involved in scuba diving, rock climbing, skiing and his church.

If you’re looking for self-defense training, that will prepare you for real life experiences, If your looking for a good workout or if you are just looking for a hobby and just having some fun, this could be the place for you."

http://www.boeboxing.com/about.htm

Your public profile says you're Brian Hoff a 1st degree from Las Vegas. Is the above article not about you? strange coincidence. And you're trolling. You have about 17+ posts on martial talk and they are all on this thread while you lie about who you are and who you train under. Oh wait you were honest you train under Clyde but not Mr. Tatum. How foolish of me. How very honorable of you, you've been taught very well.

"It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student respectful of all" -- Ed Parker

"Check out Bo Boxing on Trop, one of my students, Brian Hoff, teaches PT there but I'm not sure what days...." -- Clyde O'Briant aka Dark Kenpo Lord

 

[KenpoRonin]

I didn't ask the original question, but it's been an interesting discussion. I assume you are pushing Mr. Tatum as the rightful heir because you belong to his group? I assume this is what you were taught in your training? If I'm wrong about these assumptions, feel free to let me know.

I don't push anybody's agenda, I'm not even from EPAK; I'm from the Tracy's lineage. But I honestly think the question is moot. There is no "true successor", everyone of those who learned from Mr. Parker teach and train to the best of their abilities. Probably some are better than others, but it cannot be quantifiably measured and determined. As Doc stated in an earlier post, the answer to the question is, Your teacher is teaching the right way, until You find someone who can teach you better. That is the fairest, and most reasonable answer I have seen so far.

Mr. Parker is no longer in the picture. It is right that his students move forward and do things as they see fit. I personally don't see the relevance in arguing over who does it how Mr. Parker wanted it done. Mr. Parker isn't here to give those instructions, and he probably would have made more changes in the meantime, had he not passed away when he did. So what is held up as "how Mr. Parker wanted it" today, probably isn't even accurate compared to what it might have become, had Mr. Parker not passed away.

I know you didn't ask the question, I think you may be the only man here without an agenda. I agree there is no clear successor, otherwise would be discussing something else.

As for pushing my instructor, I am not one of Tatum's students. I will say that I left one instructor and went under one of Tatum's students. Because I as Doc said to do found one better.

 

[KenpoRonin]

"Brian has been involved in the martial arts for over ten years. A 1st degree Black Belt under Larry Tatum who teaches Ed Parker’s American Kenpo Karate, Brian has also trained in traditional American Kenpo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He has competed in several karate tournaments, including first place wins in Stan Witz’s World Championships held here in Las Vegas, NV. Brian has also trained several regional and national champions in various divisions over the past four years.

Brian is a UNLV graduate and is also actively involved in scuba diving, rock climbing, skiing and his church.

If you’re looking for self-defense training, that will prepare you for real life experiences, If your looking for a good workout or if you are just looking for a hobby and just having some fun, this could be the place for you."

http://www.boeboxing.com/about.htm

Your public profile says you're Brian Hoff a 1st degree from Las Vegas. Is the above article not about you? strange coincidence. And you're trolling. You have about 17+ posts on martial talk and they are all on this thread while you lie about who you are and who you train under. How very honerable of you, you've been taught very well.

"It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student respectful of all" -- Ed Parker

That is all True, but it is just a profile. I was adopted in under Tatum’s Organization two years ago. I train under Clyde. That being said, I left the instructor I had, already being a black, because we had a disagreement on a great many things one of them being the direction in which he was taking the way he taught Kenpo. I could have chosen anyone to study with, I looked at many instructors. I came to the conclusion that the one who had the most to offer were those under Tatum's organization. I had also built up a report with Clyde and got a long with him well. So yes I am touting Tatum's organization but that is because I did the research and thought that he was the best. I was just showing the info I came across to come to my conclusion.
As for being dishonest, I knew you and the rest of you would see that I trained under Clyde and not listen to a word I said. So I decided to choose my words wisely. Fact is I chose to go where I went, because I knew what I knew. For the record I have never trained under Tatum and only shared the mats with him in Seminars.

 

[green meanie]

Put that in your pipe and smoke it? Are you actually stupid enough to present such simple-minded arrogance about kenpo matters in the faces of men who were Parker black belts before you were born? Is this the level of respect to the arts and it's seniors that Mr. Tatum taught you to show?

You really don't get it, do you. You want to tout mat-time as a criteria, after discrediting the decade-plus of mat-time others had with Parker before Mr. Tatum made black, and well after he and Mr. Parker parted ways. 4 years is all, and Tatum had twice that...yet there were guys that were comfortable on the fringe, with more time than tatum and the last super-groups put together. Guys who were seniors when Tatum started; guys who were as closely active before and after Mr. Tatum leaving Santa Monica.

The tone of your post is despicable. Your inability to absorb simple reasoning while arguing on the side of logic, embarrassing. I'd spell it out for you, but you would still not get it. Like I said before...you can't. It's like trying to fit 10 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket.

Oddly, I don't expect this kind of behavior from 1st generation Tatum students (well, Clyde on Bullshido, but that's a given...we expect Clyde to be Clyde). Do yourself a favor: Call Robert McRobertson for some help on tracking threads and replying point/counter-point. He and I have disagreed probably more than we've agreed, but at least he has a brain with some logic that can be applied to making or countering points online (with more than "nyah-nyah"). I would venture to say your education in kenpo history is extremely biased, and far from complete. As is your education in critical thinking skills and processes.

My own two-cents; you're welcome to disagree.

Dave

Well said. :asian:

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

...I looked at many instructors. I came to the conclusion that the one who had the most to offer were those under Tatum's organization. I had also built up a report with Clyde and got a long with him well. So yes I am touting Tatum's organization but that is because I did the research and thought that he was the best. I was just showing the info I came across to come to my conclusion.

Well I can agree with much of your last post, just not the other stuff you've surmised. Glad you can state that it's what YOU THINK not the gospel truth.

Surmised: To conclude something from the information available, especially when the information is incomplete or insubstantial.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Well I can agree with much of your last post, just not the other stuff you've surmised. Glad you can state that it's what YOU THINK not the gospel truth.

Surmised: To conclude something from the information available, especially when the information is incomplete or insubstantial.

Ok I am not senior but I believe this guy is more Senior than almost all of you. He knows the history and this is what he had to say. Ok this time I will be respectful and just say please read it with an open mind!

http://www.tracyskarate.com/AmKenpo/Tatum.htm

TRACYS GUIDE TO AMERICAN KENPO
VIDEOS

Buyers beware! With the death of Ed Parker dozens of "American" kenpo stylist have rushed (stumbled - fallen flat on their faces) forward to take his place. They were all sure they where just what the Kenpo world was waiting for: the new "Messiah".

Ed Parker had not chosen any of them because he did not think any of them were qualified to lead American Kenpo - let alone Ed Parker's Kenpo. Over one dozen Kenpo stylist of varying knowledge and ability tried to rush (American Kenpo) videos to market. Hoping to fill in the vacuum left by Ed Parker. Even one of my former 4th dans formed a Kenpo organization! He put out videos and manuals to show you his “way” of Kenpo. He is now bankrupt and had to close his studio as well.



Most of them claimed: they were not doing it for themselves , they were there to "Unite Kenpo"! Naturally, with them as the "new head" of American Kenpo (and the high rank that comes with it). They came out with their new manuals and new requirements. They were no longer Ed Parker’s American Kenpo - they had something better: the "new improved" Kenpo!

With so many videos out there, which one do you buy!

When it comes to your choose of the "best" and most "authentic" video tapes on American Kenpo - self defense techniques and Katas you have a choice of one!


As further endorsement - the greatest recognition comes from your seniors. Larry Tatum at the "Gathering of Eagles" Larry Tatum was seated at the head table - where he took his place - with the other "Senior Masters" of the Yudanshakai" Above picture - Rt. to Lt. - Sijo Adriano Emperado, Master Tino Tuiolosega, Professor Sonny Gascon, Master Larry Tatum. There were a total of 16: Senior Masters" sitting at the "table of honor". More than 60 "Masters', and "Senior Masters" were in attendance! The "Gathering of Eagles" drew over 1000 Kenpo and Kenpo based system practitioners from all over the world!

How do you know when you are a "Master"?
When the other "Masters" set a place for you at their table"

As the above photo shows - the other "Masters" did indeed set a place for "Master" Tatum at their table!
Larry Tatum was the obvious choice to be the first to represent American Kenpo! Other American Kenpo representatives were awarded "Masters" plaques by the Yudanshakai. In time they too will take their place with the other seniors. None of the "Self Proclaimed" Kenpo master were given any consider by their peers. When you have no credibility with the "Masters" of the other Kenpo and Kenpo based systems where does that leave you?

As further endorsement - everyone there got to spend three days with Larry Tatum and attend his seminars. Everyone agreed - this is the man to "speak" for American kenpo. As several of the "old times" commented: He moves just like Ed did! As we all found Larry and his family were a delight to be around. So much for all the "bad" press all the rivals in Kenpo have been giving Larry for over ten years. At the "Gathering of Eagles" Larry Tatum was doing every thing - helping where needed - giving seminars - signing autographs and answering questions!

Fortunately "Master Larry Tatum's" video tapes are the best on the market.

1. Larry Tatum stated studying directly with Ed Parker back in 1966. He was there and helped Ed Parker developed "American Kenpo". Ed Parker worked and taught Larry Tatum the new material exactly as he wanted it taught. Once Larry was trained, Ed Parker let Larry do most of the training of the other top students including "Jeff Speakman". Also, Ed Parker had already chosen and designated Larry Tatum to be his successor. Larry would travel with Ed around the world and United States giving seminars. In addition to this Larry Tatum ran Ed Parker's main studio in Santa Monica for years where he accumulated "thousands" of hours of teaching time!


Which meant Larry Tatum had "done" the Katas and self defense techniques hundreds of time as he taught them on a daily basis!

2. Larry Tatum was very close to the "prime" of his life physically - when the filmed the videos.



3. The production quality of the videos is totally professional! At one time they were Panthers #1 sell tapes!



4. Larry produced his videos shortly after he left Ed Parker to go on his own and open his own studio. Which means all the American Kenpo material that was taught to Larry by Ed Parker was frozen in time! None of the changes made by other instructors after Ed Parker's death would be there! This is about as "pure" as you are going to get.

There will always be a lot of static from the other American Kenpo "wannabe's" who now all claim Ed taught them privately and gave them the real secrets". Then they claim that Ed Parker wanted such and such changed, such as cutting the number of self-defense technique from 24 to 16 (or less) per belt. Wrong! If Ed wanted something changed he would have done it himself.


If you have any doubts check with Mrs. Parker - she will inform you Ed did not teach anyone the "secrets"!

TO BE CONTINUED

This is where all the "POLITICS" come in! I am not suppose to tell you these things!
It makes Kenpo look bad they claim! Kenpo look bad? Or those claiming to be teaching American Kenpo when they are not!

I have no "quarrel" with those teaching what Ed had taught and calling it American Kenpo.

My problem come with those who are not teaching Kenpo/American Kenpo - but trying to get a free ride by using a name that everyone is familiar with!

EXAMPLE: When you go to a restaurant and order a "Hamburger" you expect to get a "Hamburger" - not a "hot dog" !! But they explain they are both made from he same type of meat and both are covered with bread! So what's the difference? Hamburger, Hot Dog, all the same!

Why don't they do us a favor - if its not American Kenpo why don't they just give it a different name?

 

[Flying Crane]

I have certainly been aware of this piece on Tracys website. Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. Tracys have posted pretty extensively about how they don't feel the changes Mr. Parker was making to the system were worthwhile. This is, of course, why they ultimately split from him and continue to teach the older method, as it apparently was taught in the 1950s and early 1960s.

So what doesn't make sense to me is why they would promote a teacher of the newer method in this way. If they were so opposed to the newer method, why would they give one of its proponents this kind of a plug?

I have never been connected to the Tracys, have never belonged to their organization, and have never met them. There is a lot about them, and about their relationship with Mr. Parker, that I am sure I will never know. So really, I don't know what to make of this piece.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

one who is teaching most of "the correct system" over all the other instructors.

And you have trained with all the other instructors?

Thirdly your problem is that you have been living in such an illusion for so long that you refuse to look at truth when it smacks you in the face. I bet if Parker came down and smacked you in the face you still would refuse to believe.

I have? What know you of my illusions? What is the truth of which you speak? (I'll warrant there is more you don't know about kenpo history, than there is you do). And, for the record, I've been smacked by Parker. En dolor, veritas.

And what simple reasoning am I unable to grasp.

Mr. Hawkins has made a couple of posts challenging the embedded rationale in your reasoning. Had you read them, and pondered them with an eye towards the logic and critical thinking you purportedly hold yourself to, you might have seen the errata in the conclusion...faulty premises lead to faulty conclusions. Premises inherently contain presuppositions. These have been erroneously attributed on your part.

Since Parker died many seniors have taken Kenpo into their own direction. I get that. I have left instructors for that same reason. As Doc agreed and Parker said in the article many of these Seniors never got all the information and when you don't have it all you have to try and figure it out for yourself. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. There were only three mentioned to have all of it. You were not one of them, sir.

I have not, ever, claimed to have the whole system. In fact, for the record for any and all to hold me to and spank me for at future dates should they choose to do so, I do not buy into the value of the whole system. If I had unlimited funds and time to train with whomever I could as often as I liked, I would be fast on the heels and always in the studios of Ron Chapel, Bob White, Denis Conatser, Rich Hale & Sigung Labounty for kenpo. This has more to do with the character of the men teaching, and my knoweldge of their content, then with "who's teaching the correct system?". In that list are some progressives, some old-timers who stick to an older cirriculum but train harder in other areas, and 2 "purists". In my pea-little brain, it is better to be really friggin' awesome at half the system, then marginal at all of it. The vast majority of kenpoists I've encountered fall into the "marginal" category. Intermittently, I am pleasantly surprised, and reconsider my position at least temporarily. Until I meet ranked black belts in the "whole" system who have shaky stances, weak basics, can't punch hard enough to break toilet paper, and I compare them to my barbarian "1/2 system plus BJJ & Kick-boxing" blacks who can dismantle a guys jaw and cheekbone with a single shot. Give me the iron-workers over the watchmakers any day.

Read some of the entries in "the Journey", and you'll see that I am not alone in this opinion. Men in kenpo who, in my OPINION (note: not stated as fact) would be better to have at my back than some of the more famous purists, ascribe to a "less is more" model of kenpo...focus on going back to clean up what you already know, making it more solid, stable, and effective, rather than adding more cards onto an already unstable foundation. It's a long-standing debate that will live on after we are all gone. But that's the side I've planted my tent on.

Many of the Seniors did not get the whole picture. Many of them didn't want it, viewing it as superfluous waste, filler, and fluff. Some just viewed it as unecessary...they'd been kicking butts for years before the cirriculum was updated, and not having Finger Set XXXXVVVIIII, and knowing how it relates to the 10th green belt extension, will never prevent them from being viable, strong combatants. Do me a favor: Tell Mr. LaBounty he don't know crap, cuz he don't do the final picture the way Tatum does. He is too good a man to feed you your own teeth, but if he weren't, you might get the chance to see what I'm talking about.

Dave

 

[KenpoRonin]

"? . You have about 17+ posts on martial talk and they are all on this thread while you lie about who you are and who you train under. Oh wait you were honest you train under Clyde but not Mr. Tatum. How foolish of me. How very honorable of you, you've been taught very well.

"It is not the aim of Kenpo to merely produce a skillful as well as powerful practitioner, but to create a well integrated student respectful of all" -- Ed Parker

"Check out Bo Boxing on Trop, one of my students, Brian Hoff, teaches PT there but I'm not sure what days...." -- Clyde O'Briant aka Dark Kenpo Lord

Nice spin call me a liar then change it. One of the biggest problem with people in Martial Arts is they claim to be something they are not. I don't train at Tatum's school, nor have I ever. So I will not claim to train with him. He did Give me black belt Cert which I charish very much for if he endorses my black belt I know I am legit. there is nothing worse than people claiming they trained under someone when they only shared the mat with them a few times. ok maybe child molesters are.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Ok I am not senior but I believe this guy is more Senior than almost all of you. He knows the history and this is what he had to say. Ok this time I will be respectful and just say please read it with an open mind!

Quoting Tracy as a sound historical source? Dude. You're not helping your case.

First, the histories coming out of Tracyville are considered a little...um...different.

2nd, if you track enough of their propaganda, Larry can't possibly be the King, because the tracy's are.

 

[Flying Crane]

2nd, if you track enough of their propaganda, Larry can't possibly be the King, because the tracy's are.

Now that you mention it Dave, we do have about three or four times as many self defense techniques (depending on how you count them) as the later editions have. Sounds like you are right, we got it all, we rule!!

 

[KenpoRonin]

And you have trained with all the other instructors?



I have? What know you of my illusions? What is the truth of which you speak? (I'll warrant there is more you don't know about kenpo history, than there is you do). And, for the record, I've been smacked by Parker. En dolor, veritas.



Mr. Hawkins has made a couple of posts challenging the embedded rationale in your reasoning. Had you read them, and pondered them with an eye towards the logic and critical thinking you purportedly hold yourself to, you might have seen the errata in the conclusion...faulty premises lead to faulty conclusions. Premises inherently contain presuppositions. These have been erroneously attributed on your part.



I have not, ever, claimed to have the whole system. In fact, for the record for any and all to hold me to and spank me for at future dates should they choose to do so, I do not buy into the value of the whole system. If I had unlimited funds and time to train with whomever I could as often as I liked, I would be fast on the heels and always in the studios of Ron Chapel, Bob White, Denis Conatser, Rich Hale & Sigung Labounty for kenpo. This has more to do with the character of the men teaching, and my knoweldge of their content, then with "who's teaching the correct system?". In that list are some progressives, some old-timers who stick to an older cirriculum but train harder in other areas, and 2 "purists". In my pea-little brain, it is better to be really friggin' awesome at half the system, then marginal at all of it. The vast majority of kenpoists I've encountered fall into the "marginal" category. Intermittently, I am pleasantly surprised, and reconsider my position at least temporarily. Until I meet ranked black belts in the "whole" system who have shaky stances, weak basics, can't punch hard enough to break toilet paper, and I compare them to my barbarian "1/2 system plus BJJ & Kick-boxing" blacks who can dismantle a guys jaw and cheekbone with a single shot. Give me the iron-workers over the watchmakers any day.

Read some of the entries in "the Journey", and you'll see that I am not alone in this opinion. Men in kenpo who, in my OPINION (note: not stated as fact) would be better to have at my back than some of the more famous purists, ascribe to a "less is more" model of kenpo...focus on going back to clean up what you already know, making it more solid, stable, and effective, rather than adding more cards onto an already unstable foundation. It's a long-standing debate that will live on after we are all gone. But that's the side I've planted my tent on.

Many of the Seniors did not get the whole picture. Many of them didn't want it, viewing it as superfluous waste, filler, and fluff. Some just viewed it as unecessary...they'd been kicking butts for years before the cirriculum was updated, and not having Finger Set XXXXVVVIIII, and knowing how it relates to the 10th green belt extension, will never prevent them from being viable, strong combatants. Do me a favor: Tell Mr. LaBounty he don't know crap, cuz he don't do the final picture the way Tatum does. He is too good a man to feed you your own teeth, but if he weren't, you might get the chance to see what I'm talking about.

Dave

There is nothing wrong with my logic, just my presentation of it. My hands can’t keep up with my mind. My BAD.

As for you attacking my logic by using many fallacious arguments (you being all those whom have taken odds against me, I am out numbered here) mainly ad hominem attacks.

I have trained with Iron workers and I have trained with Clock makers. I studied under one of La Bounties guys and think very highly of the man and his character. I enjoy the mat time I shared with him. That is both my former instructor and La Bounty.

I now study under someone who is both. He makes steel clocks.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Now that you mention it Dave, we do have about three or four times as many self defense techniques (depending on how you count them) as the later editions have. Sounds like you are right, we got it all, we rule!!

One of me old sensei was a Tracy offshoot guy, blending heavily with Japanese kempo & other stuff. We had techniques out the wazoo. He was decent enough to tell us that they were for illustrating possibilities, driven by concepts, and designed to teach us/our bodies to react appropriately to various types of inbound attacks. Oddly, I also read something very much like that in Infinite Insights 5 last night. Hmmm.

But only Larry does it right. Just ask KenpoRonin.

Dave

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

There is nothing wrong with my logic, just my presentation of it. My hands can’t keep up with my mind. My BAD.

As for you attacking my logic by using many fallacious arguments (you being all those whom have taken odds against me, I am out numbered here) mainly ad hominem attacks.

I have trained with Iron workers and I have trained with Clock makers. I studied under one of La Bounties guys and think very highly of the man and his character. I enjoy the mat time I shared with him. That is both my former instructor and La Bounty.

I now study under someone who is both. He makes steel clocks.

Cute. And for the record, not all of those attacks were ad-hominem. Calling somneone an idiot is not an ad-hominem argument. An ad-hominem argument is to say they were incorrect, because of their idiotness; this differs from arguing with the points in their argument. Beyond that, it's just stone throwing.

kenpojujutsu3 made some perfectly valid points. Even if the tone is unsolicitous, that does not make the argument ad-hominem. "That guy is wrong, because he is [inset derogatrory epithet here]" is ad-hominem.

Regards,

Dave