So...Who's Teaching The Correct System?

[Doc]

Well you can always educate the ignorant, but .....

Anyway I guess my posts get ignored. Even if I accept what you're saying, and it would be a huge stretch, and there was only one Kenpo, which it isn't, then you would have to also say Ed Parker stop developing all information and didn't diseminate anything to anyone after he fired Larry.

In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny,

"What a maroon!"

 

[Carol]

Ok maybe I misquoted what I read but if you read into it just a little I do believe that he was giving Tatum all the info, I could be wrong, He was also training with all the time so I would assume that Tatum was going to be handed the throne but because of a dispute over business. So while Parker didn't hand him the title, he most likey is the one with the most information.

That could be. GM Tatum clearly had a lot of information and was very important to Mr. Parker. As a martial artist he is masterful.

A student of Mr. Planas told me that Mr. Parker signed one of Mr. Planas' BB certificates (6th I think?) with a note that said something like "To the only person that can correct me"

I'm not saying that Mr. Planas knows more than Mr. Tatum or is better than Mr. Tatum or anything of the like. But, I do think SGM Parker was also a man that would make a point of when his students were becoming quite accomplished.

Thanks for letting me butt in :asian:

 

[HKphooey]

oy vey!

Here is a very easy way to get the point. Go to a seminar with each one of the the "top guys" or who you think are the best. I bet you learn something from all of them and you will be amazed by their skill. I have walked away from many seminars with a new view of a technique or kata (I have not worked with Doc yet, but even his writings have taught me to look a some things differently.) I do not look at it a the "correct" way, but another way. None of us (especially posting on a forum) can take away from the skill and dedication the "top guys" have.

It is like all the great chefs, they all had to learn from a master chef. Once they learn ways and style of their teacher, it is up to that individual to take existing recipes and modify it to their cooking style and to come up with their own recipes. If all chefs make every meal the exact same, things would get stale and boring.

Kenpo, the spice of life!

 

[Kenpodoc]

I don't believe that Mr. Parker had any one successor but assuming that he did perhaps we should ask which student or students did his son Edmund decided to study with? I have no doubt that Edmund knew who his father respected most.

Actually Edmund made it very clear to me that his father had no one successor and was quite proud of the quality of many of the Top instructors that he had helped train.

Jeff

 

[Brother John]

STEELERS !!!

and of course...

The NY Giants!


....I now return you to your regularly scheduled nit-picking and bickering on IMPORTANT issues that have SO much bearing on all our training.

(HA!)


Your Brother
John
(I likes ta stir tha pot...)

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Secrets of the Magician of Motion...ED PARKER.
(First appeared in Black Belt Magazine, July 1979)​

By John Corbett

In place of children lost as successors, Parker noted he has taken on
proteges to insure the continuity of the kenpo system.

"My key protege is this kid Larry Tatum," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. He's my number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything. "

The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weapon.

He also named two others he considers proteges, insiders with whom he has shared the full scope of his knowledge, Tom Kelly, who Parker said is the highest-degree black belt at a seventh-degree level, operates a Parker school in Salt Lake City; Joe Palanzo, another former student who Parker said holds a fifth degree black belt, teaches at a school in Baltimore.


If I read this correctly, he lists Tatum as his key guy.

Prada Queen

Notice a few "key" points things.

1) He names 3 people but one is Key meaning important not ONLY

2) he says "right now" which was in 1979, pre the "fallout" between Mr. Parker and Mr. Tatum.

Those points were "lost" when this article was first mentioned as the "hard evidence" to Mr. Parker's one and only successor.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Ok maybe I misquoted what I read but if you read into it just a little I do believe that he was giving Tatum all the info, I could be wrong, He was also training with all the time so I would assume that Tatum was going to be handed the throne but because of a dispute over business. So while Parker didn't hand him the title, he most likey is the one with the most information.

Flawed logic again.

1) Mr. Parker expressely stated in that article that at that time (1979 being 11 years before his death) there were at least THREE people (meaining not ONLY Tatum) with whom he shared "the full scope of his knowledge." In the next 11 years how many more people may have fallen into this category?

2) Scope of knowledge pertaining to 1) martial arts training methodology or 2) business practices of running martial arts schools or 3) Kenpo technical requirements or 4) music or 5) cooking or..... scope of knowledge in what area?

3) You made an "assumption" that Tatum was "most likely" to be named the successor. Meaning you took a semi-educated guess at a probable not definite eventually. Probability in this case is not 100% infact it cannot be defined numerically at all.

Short answer, there is no hard evidence just assumptions, guesses and opinions....same story as before for the last 16 years.

 

[KenpoRonin]

That could be. GM Tatum clearly had a lot of information and was very important to Mr. Parker. As a martial artist he is masterful.

A student of Mr. Planas told me that Mr. Parker signed one of Mr. Planas' BB certificates (6th I think?) with a note that said something like "To the only person that can correct me"

I'm not saying that Mr. Planas knows more than Mr. Tatum or is better than Mr. Tatum or anything of the like. But, I do think SGM Parker was also a man that would make a point of when his students were becoming quite accomplished.

Thanks for letting me butt in :asian:

There is a huge difference between writing a note on a BB certificate and an article in Black Belt Mag.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Don't go, Bode

Key protege does not mean successor. "Key" means important. I have a key protege right now at my enginerdy job. This person will not be my successor but this person will be very important to team.

Unfortunately this person didn’t put the entire article in. Parker is describing how may of the people he has trained had left and there is no one to pass all the info on to… but there is this Kid….

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Unfortunately this person didn’t put the entire article in. Parker is describing how may of the people he has trained had left and there is no one to pass all the info on to… but there is this Kid….

Written like one truly blinded by the dogmatism of pure faith. And Jesus named Peter the rock of his church, causing the Catholics to hold firm to their belief that the church in Rome, alone, hath truth.

Addressed to the Forum, and not Kenpo Ronin: (but you're welcome to read it)



Kenpo and Messianic Sectarianism


The history of major religious factions, and their development after their founders have moved on, has always been interesting to me. Buddha, Jesus, Muhammed…each made a dent in the societies in which they operated. After they moved on, their followers demonstrated great factionist tendencies, each claiming to be the crucible of the Masters truth.

I read Holy Blood, Holy Grail while in Bruxelles in ’86 (long before the Davinci Code craze), then out of extreme boredom, combined with the unique ability to travel via Eurail to some of the places mentioned in these histories, started reading whatever I could find on the history of the Catholic church in Europe, it’s consolidation of power in the previous millennia, and the influence it had on world affairs…from ruling royal families, to major power plays, and so on (Aachen is stunning at the first fall of snow…and the 2nd Papacy there…throne = pretty chair in pretty church/castle…definitely get the spiced sugar cookies at the Christmas market). Also, in this protracted fit of boredom, spiced up by travel to historical places, read a bit about the early church and it’s martyrs. Odd thing: I’m not even catholic, but found the entire thing fascinating (the side hallways, closed to the public, in the museum of the Vatican have more priceless sculpture stuffed in them for storage than do probably all of the U.S. metropolitan museums put together).

James, the brother of Jesus, is attributed to starting the church in Jerusalem. Other apostles split to other locations to start other churches. Over time, the Catholic Church absorbed many of them. Independent bishoprics, each supposedly started by an apostle, or an apostle’s disciple, or some such lineage claim.

Some did not join, and also claim apostolic heritage: Direct line, through founders, to the Master. Greek orthodox, Ethiopian, some strains in India that claim lineage through the missions of Thomas (all of this, up to debate by historians). Some have kept their traditions in tact; others have survived by syncretically absorbing cultural traditions from the lands in which they survive. It seems that the church in Jerusalem resisted all attempts at absorption by the Vatican, and (they claim) practice much the way they did +/- 2000 years ago.

What does this have to do with kenpo? Well…think about it. There is a Tatum bishopric, with members gunning hard to have it upheld as the standard orthodoxy into which all others incorporate, or fade. The un-incorporated bishops are, basically, the seniors. Chapel bishopric; Planas bishopric; etc. Each lineage of students will be able to claim apostolic heritage to the Master (in this case, Mr. Parker); each will have scholars who rub their chins, amused by the historical differences; and each will have zealots, fiercely defending the truth of their church as being more true than the truths of the others.

Instead of multiple church’s, we’ll have multiple associations…some official, some not. Each will perform their mass & sacrament – or techniques, forms & sets – a little bit differently than the others, convinced that their way is the most holy way. And, as with religions, there will be small, heretical bands of mystics that ascribe to none of them, yet all of them, seeking the truth not from a guru, text or DVD series, but from their own explorations into the capabilities of Self to expand around the context of a given model.

Threads like these, and their tendency to recur in some format or another, tell me we have already begun.

Retreating to my mystics cave till I can get back to the Bishoprics I prefer to adhere to,

Dave

 

[Carol]

There is a huge difference between writing a note on a BB certificate and an article in Black Belt Mag.

I confuse mine all the time :rofl:

Would love to see Mr. Tatum open a school in Massachusetts. It would be nice to see a teacher with some strong lineage in these parts to give some more competition to the the friendly neighborhood grandmasters that have popped up all over the place :asian:

 

[IWishToLearn]

Interesting analogy. Actually that could be quite fitting.

 

[Flying Crane]

Good post, Dave. Very well said.

 

[KenpoRonin]

Unfortunately this person didn’t put the entire article in. Parker is describing how may of the people he has trained had left and there is no one to pass all the info on to… but there is this Kid….

He ya go read it and weep

…He has worried over former students would leave and open up Kenpo studios of their own. I always had the fear guys taking off being disloyal and opening up on their own, so I left out a lot of stuff. Parker said he found some students resenting… that he had hidden knowledge from him. Quote they were somewhat hurt in a way he admitted but they would still feel happy. They are (the now complete techniques) some minor additions in the whole puzzle. I am teaching those who stuck by me. The fact is I was going to reserve the knowledge for my children and my son. He is not interested in the martial arts he studies but his heart is in the fine arts. In place of children walk the successors he has taken on protégés to insure the continuality of the Kenpo system.

My key protege is this kid Larry Tatum," Parker said with a laugh, con- tinuing that "anyone younger than me I call a kid. He's my number one guy right now. He moves like me. He looks like me. He's got the power-everything. "

The kenpoist noted that he is helping 15-year student Tatum complete a book, Confidence, A Child's First Weapon.

He also named two others he considers proteges, insiders with whom he has shared the full scope of his knowledge, Tom Kelly, who Parker said is the highest-degree black belt at a seventh-degree level, operates a Parker school in Salt Lake City; Joe Palanzo, another former student who Parker said holds a fifth degree black belt, teaches at a school in Baltimore.


Now lets look at the facts these other two proteges didn't get to spend as much mat time as Tatum one lived Salt Lake and the other in Baltimore.

So who had more mat time? Who is listed as the KEY GUY

Websters - Key; of chief or critical importance; pivotal.

Sure they had a falling out, but Tatum was the Key guy for how long. No one before him had all the information and how many after him were able to get it? We are talking what 4 years Tatum had twice that long to get all of it.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[Kenpodoc]

There is a huge difference between writing a note on a BB certificate and an article in Black Belt Mag.

True. Personally I would have preferred a note on my Black Belt Certificate.

Jeff

 

[JamesB]

There is a huge difference between writing a note on a BB certificate and an article in Black Belt Mag.

True. Personally I would have preferred a note on my Black Belt Certificate.

was going to say exactly the same. On the one hand, a personally written note from master to student, something to treasure - and on the other, an article engineered soley to sell the business side of kenpo-karate to the general-public, specifically mentioning the individuals that were important in the commerical side of the art.

KenpoRonin, you really need to stop with this nonsense.

 

[Flying Crane]

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Just for the sake of discussion, let's suspend our disbelief for a moment.

Just suppose some indesputable, concrete proof were to surface at this late stage in the game. Something like a document written by Mr. Parker a few days before his death, that undisputably names Mr. Tatum as his successor. This document states clearly that Mr. Tatum knows and understands every aspect of Mr. Parker's arts in a perfect way, and that nothing is lacking whatsoever. It also explicitly states that no other student of Mr. Parker is able to stand at the same level as Mr. Tatum. It also states that upon Mr. Parker's death, Mr. Tatum shall be recognized as the new leader and grandmaster of all aspects of Mr. Parker's kenpo. It instructs all of Mr. Parker's other students to acknowledge Mr. Tatum as their superior, and they are to follow any and all orders issued by Mr. Tatum, concerning the proper way to practice and teach kenpo. And lets further suppose that this document is somehow able to be authenticated and verified without a doubt that it is not a forgery, and was not written under duress or threat of harm to anybody.

OK. What of it? What does this prove, at this point? Why would it matter? What is it that you are attempting to accomplish, by pushing this notion? Especially coming at this late stage when many of Mr. Parker's students are solidly pursuing their own methods of training, advancing Kenpo in the ways that they see fit, I find it doubtful that anyone would suddenly comply with this decree and come back and bow down before Mr. Tatum.

So, I ask, What's your point?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

He ya go read it and weep

Now lets look at the facts these other two proteges didn't get to spend as much mat time as Tatum one lived Salt Lake and the other in Baltimore.

So who had more mat time? Who is listed as the KEY GUY

Websters - Key; of chief or critical importance; pivotal.

Sure they had a falling out, but Tatum was the Key guy for how long. No one before him had all the information and how many after him were able to get it? We are talking what 4 years Tatum had twice that long to get all of it.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it? Are you actually stupid enough to present such simple-minded arrogance about kenpo matters in the faces of men who were Parker black belts before you were born? Is this the level of respect to the arts and it's seniors that Mr. Tatum taught you to show?

You really don't get it, do you. You want to tout mat-time as a criteria, after discrediting the decade-plus of mat-time others had with Parker before Mr. Tatum made black, and well after he and Mr. Parker parted ways. 4 years is all, and Tatum had twice that...yet there were guys that were comfortable on the fringe, with more time than tatum and the last super-groups put together. Guys who were seniors when Tatum started; guys who were as closely active before and after Mr. Tatum leaving Santa Monica.

The tone of your post is despicable. Your inability to absorb simple reasoning while arguing on the side of logic, embarrassing. I'd spell it out for you, but you would still not get it. Like I said before...you can't. It's like trying to fit 10 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket.

Oddly, I don't expect this kind of behavior from 1st generation Tatum students (well, Clyde on Bullshido, but that's a given...we expect Clyde to be Clyde). Do yourself a favor: Call Robert McRobertson for some help on tracking threads and replying point/counter-point. He and I have disagreed probably more than we've agreed, but at least he has a brain with some logic that can be applied to making or countering points online (with more than "nyah-nyah"). I would venture to say your education in kenpo history is extremely biased, and far from complete. As is your education in critical thinking skills and processes.

My own two-cents; you're welcome to disagree.

Dave

 

[KenpoRonin]

Just for the sake of discussion, let's suspend our disbelief for a moment.

Just suppose some indesputable, concrete proof were to surface at this late stage in the game. Something like a document written by Mr. Parker a few days before his death, that undisputably names Mr. Tatum as his successor. This document states clearly that Mr. Tatum knows and understands every aspect of Mr. Parker's arts in a perfect way, and that nothing is lacking whatsoever. It also explicitly states that no other student of Mr. Parker is able to stand at the same level as Mr. Tatum. It also states that upon Mr. Parker's death, Mr. Tatum shall be recognized as the new leader and grandmaster of all aspects of Mr. Parker's kenpo. It instructs all of Mr. Parker's other students to acknowledge Mr. Tatum as their superior, and they are to follow any and all orders issued by Mr. Tatum, concerning the proper way to practice and teach kenpo. And lets further suppose that this document is somehow able to be authenticated and verified without a doubt that it is not a forgery, and was not written under duress or threat of harm to anybody.

OK. What of it? What does this prove, at this point? Why would it matter? What is it that you are attempting to accomplish, by pushing this notion? Especially coming at this late stage when many of Mr. Parker's students are solidly pursuing their own methods of training, advancing Kenpo in the ways that they see fit, I find it doubtful that anyone would suddenly comply with this decree and come back and bow down before Mr. Tatum.

So, I ask, What's your point?

What is this board about… Who is teaching the correct system? I am just answering that question. Don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Put that in your pipe and smoke it? Are you actually stupid enough to present such simple-minded arrogance about kenpo matters in the faces of men who were Parker black belts before you were born? Is this the level of respect to the arts and it's seniors that Mr. Tatum taught you to show?

You really don't get it, do you. You want to tout mat-time as a criteria, after discrediting the decade-plus of mat-time others had with Parker before Mr. Tatum made black, and well after he and Mr. Parker parted ways. 4 years is all, and Tatum had twice that...yet there were guys that were comfortable on the fringe, with more time than tatum and the last super-groups put together. Guys who were seniors when Tatum started; guys who were as closely active before and after Mr. Tatum leaving Santa Monica.

The tone of your post is despicable. Your inability to absorb simple reasoning while arguing on the side of logic, embarrassing. I'd spell it out for you, but you would still not get it. Like I said before...you can't. It's like trying to fit 10 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket.

Oddly, I don't expect this kind of behavior from 1st generation Tatum students (well, Clyde on Bullshido, but that's a given...we expect Clyde to be Clyde). Do yourself a favor: Call Robert McRobertson for some help on tracking threads and replying point/counter-point. He and I have disagreed probably more than we've agreed, but at least he has a brain with some logic that can be applied to making or countering points online (with more than "nyah-nyah"). I would venture to say your education in kenpo history is extremely biased, and far from complete. As is your education in critical thinking skills and processes.

My own two-cents; you're welcome to disagree.

Dave