drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
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So, is a king hit like a sucker punch?
Yes.
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So, is a king hit like a sucker punch?
If they attack in that manner one stab and then stop. then fine grab the arm.
Oh since you added the videos via an edit, I didn't see them when I first responded so
1. Caporeia is out since it is a primary striking art and uses the knife defense everyone else has said works better.
2. Your videos are non-sequiturs. Neither of them actually show any defensive techniques for fighting unarmed against an armed attacker, its all unarmed vs unarmed. That said...
GLÍMA - The Martial Art of the Vikings by Tyr Neilsen
So Glima is out. An interesting thing to note btw, if you didn't know, is that Glima has multiple styles. One is a "combat" version which is basically just a Scandinavian style of HEMA (it also includes weapon use along with the grappling) and the rest are various forms of "folk wrestling" which are only intended to be used against another unarmed wrestler.
Also the Traditional African wrestling we see today that you noted is formally recognized as folk wrestling not combat wrestling, often used for either rights of passage, an exercise (not training regime) for warriors or bouts of honor. As an example we have records of a version from the Canary islands that was documented by the Spanish in the early 15th century. It had referees even then that the Spanish referred to as "hombres de honor." So at least from what we can prove, that's out to
So thus far every art you have noted specifically (Glima, HEMA, Judo, Caporeia) either uses the techniques others note as superior OR has no documented proof of it being designed specifically for use on the battlefield and thus potentially opposing an armed combatants as they were, essentially, "friendly", though yes aggressive, sporting competitions (Traditional African wrestling as it has is known today and documented back to 1400.).
Oh since you added the videos via an edit, I didn't see them when I first responded so
1. Caporeia is out since it is a primary striking art and uses the knife defense everyone else has said works better.
2. Your videos are non-sequiturs. Neither of them actually show any defensive techniques for fighting unarmed against an armed attacker, its all unarmed vs unarmed. That said...
GLÍMA - The Martial Art of the Vikings by Tyr Neilsen
So Glima is out. An interesting thing to note btw, if you didn't know, is that Glima has multiple styles. One is a "combat" version which is basically just a Scandinavian style of HEMA (it also includes weapon use along with the grappling) and the rest are various forms of "folk wrestling" which are only intended to be used against another unarmed wrestler.
Also the Traditional African wrestling we see today that you noted is formally recognized as folk wrestling not combat wrestling, often used for either rights of passage, an exercise (not training regime) for warriors or bouts of honor. As an example we have records of a version from the Canary islands that was documented by the Spanish in the early 15th century. It had referees even then that the Spanish referred to as "hombres de honor." So at least from what we can prove, that's out to
So thus far every art you have noted specifically (Glima, HEMA, Judo, Caporeia) either uses the techniques others note as superior OR has no documented proof of it being designed specifically for use on the battlefield and thus potentially opposing an armed combatants as they were, essentially, "friendly", though yes aggressive, sporting competitions (Traditional African wrestling as it has is known today and documented back to 1400.).
You don't want to say it was lucky, that MMA training doesn't train you in the more effective methods of knife defense, that it WILL work again because, if you say any of that then you feel it brings your training into question. The problem is it doesn't do that at all.
Yes. Thank you, I said his before. MMA is like boxing in the sense it doesn't train for weapon defense because you will not face a weapon in a ring.
He however thinks you can just grab and punch a guy until he "gives up his knife." Like geez I can admit my training has some faults here and there but in his head MMA is just perfect and has zero flaws.
There is no indication that one technique has been used over any other technique in the battlefield. Even if those systems contain it.
Mma has arm grabs and throws that would control a knife. Because it has to deal with punching. Does not mean that particular method has to be used for every weapon encounter.
You just made that link yourself.
And if we are suggesting designed for the battlefield is an endorsement. How does that explain krav maga.
You think you can grab a knife off a guy as they are trying to stab you.
Have you ever tried that?
Actually. What battlefield was you martial art designed for?
first now you are moving goal posts. First it was "there are battlefield wrestling arts that don't have techniques specifically designed to address a knife." Now its "there is no indication that..."
Secondly, you don't design such specific techniques and perpetuate them unless they are seem as advantages over the "basics."
You don't grab the knife off the guy and you know it, you are now just being ridiculous. You take control of the knife wielding arm, again like in Lucky Dog's video, and then once you have sufficient control either destroy>strip or simply strip.
Goal post was moved as soon as the knife was brought into the equation.
You think you can grab a knife off a guy as they are trying to stab you.
Goal post was moved as soon as the knife was brought into the equation.
Since you directly addressed me I will answer. Because someone else allegedly moved a goal post doesn't justify you moving goal posts, you know the "two wrongs don't make a right" thing?
The thing is while what you did was clearly a goal post move, the intro of the knife was arguably not, it all depends on what your reason for studying martial arts is. If your primary motivation is self-defense then it is worth asking "is there a method that includes fighting with and/or defending against weapons" and knife defenses are not dissimilar to addressing other melee weapons. Looking at the stats from the US Bureau of Justice Statistics, it's not surprising. (yes from 2009 but it is the last comprehensive report I can find.)
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Asking that question shouldn't be seen as a threat to MMA's effectiveness, which is clearly a concern for you but rather than acknowledge that MMA has a short coming, the same as you demand of many others when they speak of their individual arts. It seems this is a case of someone who has an issue taking his own medicine, especially when confronted with facts.
due to this response of yours though I am truly done because when the defense becomes "I know he is but what am I" school yard stuff there is truly no further use.
Moved the goal posts. Refer to videos already posted for how to disarm a knife.
No it was never moved. You said MMA is fine for self defense. Being attacked with a knife is a very real and common self defense scenario.
two wrongs don't make a right" thing?
Ok serious knife defense business for a second. Just in case anyone wants to know.
In any fight you don't really have the time and the space that you generally have in training. This kind of hampers your ability to react. So if you struggle to catch a sewing machine attack in training. You are going to have a bad day if you attempt it for real. This is why we don see a heck of a lot of punches caught out of mid air and turned into locks. And why the arm grab isn't the only weapon defense.
But this also means his ability to react is also hampered.So if you preempt. Say for example ignore the knife and just smash him to the ground fast. You are counting on his inability to react to mabye keep you safe.
If i miss the grab and get shanked. I am exactly where i was. (you cant repeat that dynamic it become a lose lose) If I throw the guy and get shanked. He is at least on the deck. And i can do something.
For a knife attack you have to create a circumstance where the danger of getting stabbed becomes less. And you only have seconds in which to do that.
You can achieve this in three ways grab the arm. Hit the guy. Throw him. Run off. To apply these methods you need to be fast and you need to chain them together in a manner that is forcing him to react to you.
So I can get away with just dumping the dude due to the speed in which that happens. Depending on the circumstances,where he is, what he looks open to. All sorts of real world factors.
If the throw hadnt worked or took longer than a second or so. Then i may have grabbed the arm for a lock.
People are too linear in their approach to this.
You moved the goal posts again when you decided that a martial arts technique should be based on its military history.
And we did not see one example of your method being used.
Otherwise i accept mma is not effective against knives.
All unarmed responses are not effective against knives. Probably said that when that particular red herring was mentioned.
I'll point this out again, because you seem to be getting very frustrated. Drop Bear is arguing the same position that has been argued by "self defense" proponents around here for years. It's been very interesting to watch.Since you keep accusing me falsely...
Earlier in this thread (I took screens shots in the event you decide to change a rating) you showed support for my point that competition is good for Testing but that some occupations are equally good test beds if you end up having to use the skills regularly as well. (the entire point of this thread). I suspect because I specifically noted bouncers but okay, whatever.
Now suddenly mentioning an occupation as a valid test bed is moving a goal post. Rofl.
Oh and I did show you a video. The full on sparring by one of the Dog Brother's founders "Lucky Dog". Dog Brothers sparing and their Gatherings are at full intensity no different than MMA. He even used a 7000 volt shock knife so we could see if and when he got "cut". They just wear helmets with masks because of the added danger even a blunt weapon brings to the mix. If Dog Brothers testing and sparring isn't seen as valid then MMA is equally invalid.
As for the last, again, a few centuries of testing and training would disagree. It would say it is far more dangerous. You want to avoid it if ever possible, but if you get trapped having to do it, you do it the way the rest of us have been saying because that method has a much higher chance of success in saving your life and letting you be the person walking away.
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Stuff like this immediately comes to mind;
I don't know how any move that is only useful for destruction would be useful in MMA - legal or not. If I use a standing arm bar (we have a few), there's simply no way to use that to hold someone in place. I have only two choices: transition immediately to another technique, or go ahead and try to break the arm. There's no lock available other than complete commitment to the break. Trying to hold it in place leaves too many openings for either escape or counter.
Contests are not for practicing doing permanent damage to people.