drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Yes.
So what's a better "test" for martial arts other than MMA?
- Thread starter Hanzou
- Start date
Yes.
Juany118
Senior Master
No because it is not simply a matter of "stop" it is a matter of control and strip or control>destroy, then strip. I get it. Your method worked once for you. You don't want to say it was lucky, that MMA training doesn't train you in the more effective methods of knife defense, that it WILL work again because, if you say any of that then you feel it brings your training into question. The problem is it doesn't do that at all.
There is no single martial art out there that "has it all." Some come closer than others. In the case of unarmed combat against a single attacker I would say MMA is one of them, so for your job you picked a pretty good Martial art to study. Like anything though, it's not perfect and in terms of addressing multiple attackers and/or weapons it has weakness.
No different than Kali. Multiple attackers is always dicey but when unarmed I would say Kali has some weakness against multiple attackers. The Wing Chun I study, while it has locks throws and take downs has NO ground game, and it's take down defense is equally questionable. This is why I study two arts atm, and still practice at ones I no longer study, to try and fill the gaps as best I can.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Oh since you added the videos via an edit, I didn't see them when I first responded so
1. Caporeia is out since it is a primary striking art and uses the knife defense everyone else has said works better.
2. Your videos are non-sequiturs. Neither of them actually show any defensive techniques for fighting unarmed against an armed attacker, its all unarmed vs unarmed. That said...
GLĂŤMA - The Martial Art of the Vikings by Tyr Neilsen
So Glima is out. An interesting thing to note btw, if you didn't know, is that Glima has multiple styles. One is a "combat" version which is basically just a Scandinavian style of HEMA (it also includes weapon use along with the grappling) and the rest are various forms of "folk wrestling" which are only intended to be used against another unarmed wrestler.
Also the Traditional African wrestling we see today that you noted is formally recognized as folk wrestling not combat wrestling, often used for either rights of passage, an exercise (not training regime) for warriors or bouts of honor. As an example we have records of a version from the Canary islands that was documented by the Spanish in the early 15th century. It had referees even then that the Spanish referred to as "hombres de honor." So at least from what we can prove, that's out to
So thus far every art you have noted specifically (Glima, HEMA, Judo, Caporeia) either uses the techniques others note as superior OR has no documented proof of it being designed specifically for use on the battlefield and thus potentially opposing an armed combatants as they were, essentially, "friendly", though yes aggressive, sporting competitions (Traditional African wrestling as it has is known today and documented back to 1400.).
Oh since you added the videos via an edit, I didn't see them when I first responded so
1. Caporeia is out since it is a primary striking art and uses the knife defense everyone else has said works better.
2. Your videos are non-sequiturs. Neither of them actually show any defensive techniques for fighting unarmed against an armed attacker, its all unarmed vs unarmed. That said...
GLĂŤMA - The Martial Art of the Vikings by Tyr Neilsen
So Glima is out. An interesting thing to note btw, if you didn't know, is that Glima has multiple styles. One is a "combat" version which is basically just a Scandinavian style of HEMA (it also includes weapon use along with the grappling) and the rest are various forms of "folk wrestling" which are only intended to be used against another unarmed wrestler.
Also the Traditional African wrestling we see today that you noted is formally recognized as folk wrestling not combat wrestling, often used for either rights of passage, an exercise (not training regime) for warriors or bouts of honor. As an example we have records of a version from the Canary islands that was documented by the Spanish in the early 15th century. It had referees even then that the Spanish referred to as "hombres de honor." So at least from what we can prove, that's out to
So thus far every art you have noted specifically (Glima, HEMA, Judo, Caporeia) either uses the techniques others note as superior OR has no documented proof of it being designed specifically for use on the battlefield and thus potentially opposing an armed combatants as they were, essentially, "friendly", though yes aggressive, sporting competitions (Traditional African wrestling as it has is known today and documented back to 1400.).
There is no indication that one technique has been used over any other technique in the battlefield. Even if those systems contain it.
Mma has arm grabs and throws that would control a knife. Because it has to deal with punching. Does not mean that particular method has to be used for every weapon encounter.
You just made that link yourself.
And if we are suggesting designed for the battlefield is an endorsement. How does that explain krav maga.
The idea of linage determining effectiveness is pretty slim.
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Ironbear24
Senior Master
Yes. Thank you, I said his before. MMA is like boxing in the sense it doesn't train for weapon defense because you will not face a weapon in a ring.
He however thinks you can just grab and punch a guy until he "gives up his knife." Like geez I can admit my training has some faults here and there but in his head MMA is just perfect and has zero flaws.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
You think you can grab a knife off a guy as they are trying to stab you.
Have you ever tried that?
Actually. What battlefield was you martial art designed for?
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Juany118
Senior Master
first now you are moving goal posts. First it was "there are battlefield wrestling arts that don't have techniques specifically designed to address a knife." Now its "there is no indication that..."
Secondly, you don't design such specific techniques and perpetuate them unless they are seem as advantages over the "basics."
Yes but if you don't train it in a slightly different ways there are issues. First you need to be ready to do one thing. It's not just about grabbing the arm, it's about grabbing it in such a way and then knowing how to strip it properly and quickly. When you are holding the knife the wrist becomes a pivot joint and the knife can still carve your wrist up otherwise.
In the minutes it took me to respond I made an entire web site? GLĂŤMA - The Martial Art of the Vikings by Tyr Neilsen
Ummmm no. All I did was also provide an individual photo off of Google Image search, which is what led me to the web site in the first place. A web site with details about an martial art I have never studied and a school and people I have never known about until today. That accusation is actually kinda sad in because of the desperation it evidences.
Krav Maga uses a variation of the knife techniques I spoke about, the only difference is that after they lock down the knife arm then almost always go for destruction before a strip wher some arts focus on control>strip alone.
and then rather than keep linking short ones a 34 minute video that again is control control control.
Juany118
Senior Master
You don't grab the knife off the guy and you know it, you are now just being ridiculous. You take control of the knife wielding arm, again like in Lucky Dog's video, and then once you have sufficient control either destroy>strip or simply strip.
I think I have said more than enough to prove the point that you are simply reaching for any justification, regardless of how false or illogical, to defend an untenable position, with actual facts, videos and links vs your claims that were made where you clearly had little to no clue about the arts you were naming (already named em so no need to be redundant). So I will allow you the last word as it won't be an better so long as it isn't accusing me of making stuff up again (which is calling me a liar in not so many words.) and if you don't actually produce a Martial Art that is actually to your point. If you do then I would love to actually research the hell out of it and discuss it at length there after because I actually love learning new things, even it the new thing contradicts what I believed before. .
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Ok serious knife defense business for a second. Just in case anyone wants to know.
In any fight you don't really have the time and the space that you generally have in training. This kind of hampers your ability to react. So if you struggle to catch a sewing machine attack in training. You are going to have a bad day if you attempt it for real. This is why we don see a heck of a lot of punches caught out of mid air and turned into locks. And why the arm grab isn't the only weapon defense.
But this also means his ability to react is also hampered.So if you preempt. Say for example ignore the knife and just smash him to the ground fast. You are counting on his inability to react to mabye keep you safe.
If i miss the grab and get shanked. I am exactly where i was. (you cant repeat that dynamic it become a lose lose) If I throw the guy and get shanked. He is at least on the deck. And i can do something.
For a knife attack you have to create a circumstance where the danger of getting stabbed becomes less. And you only have seconds in which to do that.
You can achieve this in three ways grab the arm. Hit the guy. Throw him. Run off. To apply these methods you need to be fast and you need to chain them together in a manner that is forcing him to react to you.
So I can get away with just dumping the dude due to the speed in which that happens. Depending on the circumstances,where he is, what he looks open to. All sorts of real world factors.
If the throw hadnt worked or took longer than a second or so. Then i may have grabbed the arm for a lock.
People are too linear in their approach to this.
In any fight you don't really have the time and the space that you generally have in training. This kind of hampers your ability to react. So if you struggle to catch a sewing machine attack in training. You are going to have a bad day if you attempt it for real. This is why we don see a heck of a lot of punches caught out of mid air and turned into locks. And why the arm grab isn't the only weapon defense.
But this also means his ability to react is also hampered.So if you preempt. Say for example ignore the knife and just smash him to the ground fast. You are counting on his inability to react to mabye keep you safe.
If i miss the grab and get shanked. I am exactly where i was. (you cant repeat that dynamic it become a lose lose) If I throw the guy and get shanked. He is at least on the deck. And i can do something.
For a knife attack you have to create a circumstance where the danger of getting stabbed becomes less. And you only have seconds in which to do that.
You can achieve this in three ways grab the arm. Hit the guy. Throw him. Run off. To apply these methods you need to be fast and you need to chain them together in a manner that is forcing him to react to you.
So I can get away with just dumping the dude due to the speed in which that happens. Depending on the circumstances,where he is, what he looks open to. All sorts of real world factors.
If the throw hadnt worked or took longer than a second or so. Then i may have grabbed the arm for a lock.
People are too linear in their approach to this.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Goal post was moved as soon as the knife was brought into the equation.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Well no you grab for the arm. Miss and get stabbed.
Or you grab for the arm. Get punched in the head by the other arm and get stabbed.
And then generally rinse and repeat.
Juany118
Senior Master
Since you directly addressed me I will answer. Because someone else allegedly moved a goal post doesn't justify you moving goal posts, you know the "two wrongs don't make a right" thing?
The thing is while what you did was clearly a goal post move, the intro of the knife was arguably not, it all depends on what your reason for studying martial arts is. If your primary motivation is self-defense then it is worth asking "is there a method that includes fighting with and/or defending against weapons" and knife defenses are not dissimilar to addressing other melee weapons. Looking at the stats from the US Bureau of Justice Statistics, it's not surprising. (yes from 2009 but it is the last comprehensive report I can find.)
Asking that question shouldn't be seen as a threat to MMA's effectiveness, which is clearly a concern for you but rather than acknowledge that MMA has a short coming, the same as you demand of many others when they speak of their individual arts. It seems this is a case of someone who has an issue taking his own medicine, especially when confronted with facts.
due to this response of yours though I am truly done because when the defense becomes "I know he is but what am I" school yard stuff there is truly no further use.
Ironbear24
Senior Master
Moved the goal posts. Refer to videos already posted for how to disarm a knife.
No it was never moved. You said MMA is fine for self defense. Being attacked with a knife is a very real and common self defense scenario.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
You moved the goal posts again when you decided that a martial arts technique should be based on its military history.
And we did not see one example of your method being used.
Otherwise i accept mma is not effective against knives.
All unarmed responses are not effective against knives. Probably said that when that particular red herring was mentioned.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
So is being attacked by two people with knives.
Do how does your Self defense system address that?
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Kid in bali got arrested for buying drugs. But it turned out he got ripped off and only bought crushed paracetamol.
Two wrongs made a right.
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You are still referring to grabbing the arm, as if we just try to magically pluck it out if the air. If that's what you think those techniques are about, then I can see why you don't like them.
Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido
Juany118
Senior Master
Since you keep accusing me falsely...
Earlier in this thread (I took screens shots in the event you decide to change a rating) you showed support for my point that competition is good for Testing but that some occupations are equally good test beds if you end up having to use the skills regularly as well. (the entire point of this thread). I suspect because I specifically noted bouncers but okay, whatever.
Now suddenly mentioning an occupation as a valid test bed is moving a goal post. Rofl.
Oh and I did show you a video. The full on sparring by one of the Dog Brother's founders "Lucky Dog". Dog Brothers sparing and their Gatherings are at full intensity no different than MMA. He even used a 7000 volt shock knife so we could see if and when he got "cut". They just wear helmets with masks because of the added danger even a blunt weapon brings to the mix. If Dog Brothers testing and sparring isn't seen as valid then MMA is equally invalid.
As for the last, again, a few centuries of testing and training would disagree. It would say it is far more dangerous. You want to avoid it if ever possible, but if you get trapped having to do it, you do it the way the rest of us have been saying because that method has a much higher chance of success in saving your life and letting you be the person walking away.
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
I'll point this out again, because you seem to be getting very frustrated. Drop Bear is arguing the same position that has been argued by "self defense" proponents around here for years. It's been very interesting to watch.
So, if you're seeing changes in Drop Bear's position, I'm not surprised. He's specifically and intentionally (I believe) demonstrating how specious the arguments against MMA for self defense are by applying them in the other direction.
You guys, conversely, are making the same arguments I've made for years about other kinds of "self defense" training. While it's nice to see you all supporting what, in my opinion, makes the most sense, it's getting hard to watch.
And I know that instead of considering my post, you will tell me that this is different. But, if you think that, you're not far enough back to see that it is not.
I generally try to read an entire thread before I start commenting, but I'm only halfway through so far and I'm seeing enough individual posts I want to respond to that I'm afraid I'll lose track of them if I wait until I slog through another 15 pages. Hopefully I won't duplicate too much of what others have said in the meantime ...
That isn't scenario training. It's a demo with a little bit of play acting before hand.
Scenario training should (just like sparring) have multiple ways to fail (and therefore learn).
Depending on how the scenario is set up, some of those failure modes might be ...
Initiating physical conflict when it is unnecessary or tactically or legally unwise.
Not initiating physical conflict when it is necessary.
Initiating physical conflict too soon.
Initiating physical conflict too late.
Not positioning oneself before physical conflict occurs so as to have the advantage and possibly avoid the conflict entirely.
Being distracted by one part of a scenario so as not to detect the real danger coming from elsewhere.
Not taking advantage of the correct moment to disengage and leave the situation.
Saying or doing the wrong thing during interaction with law enforcement after the "main event", leading to a variety of unfortunate outcomes
Etc.
In my experience, scenario training can and should be just as psychologically stressful as hard sparring - not least because the rules and objectives may not be spelled out beforehand and a good scenario trainer will have set up non-obvious "traps" - ways to lead the inexperienced student into trouble that have nothing to do with specific physical attacks.
That isn't scenario training. It's a demo with a little bit of play acting before hand.
Scenario training should (just like sparring) have multiple ways to fail (and therefore learn).
Depending on how the scenario is set up, some of those failure modes might be ...
Initiating physical conflict when it is unnecessary or tactically or legally unwise.
Not initiating physical conflict when it is necessary.
Initiating physical conflict too soon.
Initiating physical conflict too late.
Not positioning oneself before physical conflict occurs so as to have the advantage and possibly avoid the conflict entirely.
Being distracted by one part of a scenario so as not to detect the real danger coming from elsewhere.
Not taking advantage of the correct moment to disengage and leave the situation.
Saying or doing the wrong thing during interaction with law enforcement after the "main event", leading to a variety of unfortunate outcomes
Etc.
In my experience, scenario training can and should be just as psychologically stressful as hard sparring - not least because the rules and objectives may not be spelled out beforehand and a good scenario trainer will have set up non-obvious "traps" - ways to lead the inexperienced student into trouble that have nothing to do with specific physical attacks.
I understand that you personally would not want to use a technique in competition which leads to immediately breaking your opponent's arm without giving him a chance to tap. However it is perfectly legal to do so in MMA and there are plenty of competitors who are willing to do so.
I am only aware of one occasion where a MMA competitor actually succeeded in doing such a thing with a standing armlock. Shinya Aoki broke Keith Wisniewski's arm with a really nasty Waki Gatame. (About 2 minutes into the video if you want to skip directly to it.) Wisniewski went on to have 16 more fights after that one, so apparently the damage wasn't all that permanent, even though it did end the fight.
