So what's a better "test" for martial arts other than MMA?

[Ironbear24]

And this is what I have been saying. His premise basically is "it worked once thus proven" when in such a context it can be luck, it can be lack of intent to use on the part of the knife wielder etc.

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It's like saying I didn't know what to do on this test, so I just marked C on all of the answers and barely passed.

Yeah sure it can work, but is it likely going to work? When it comes to my life I would rather do something that has a high chance to work rather than something that maybe will work.

It would make sense to go for the higher percentage chance to succeed.

 

[Juany118]

It's like saying I didn't know what to do on this test, so I just marked C on all of the answers and barely passed.

Yeah sure it can work, but is it likely going to work? When it comes to my life I would rather do something that has a high chance to work rather than something that maybe will work.

It would make sense to go for the higher percentage chance to succeed.

Luck is always a factor, as is the fact that many people who display a weapon are either A. Incompetent with it and/or B. Don't actually intend to use it and are brandishing it for mere intimidation.

I am not relying on any of the above and chose to train in a manner that assume the person has talent, if not trained skill and an intent to gut me. Anything else is hubris which will end in my serious injury or death.

 

[Steve]

Do you guys realize you're making the same point drop bear has been making for months?

 

[drop bear]

To be honest if someone grabbed me and tried punching me while I had a knife, they would be gutted like a fish. They would be exposing all of their centerline to me and well, that is where all the important stuff happens to be,

If you tried to grab a persons arm mid shank you would get gutted as well.

I mean it is almost impossible without a knife. But we just flail around hoping to get lucky.

By the way you never mentioned if you fought one knife guy more times than a hundred knife guys.

 

[drop bear]

Why because it DIDN'T work on the battlefield, this is a fact. Jujutsu (and Judo) Pankration, HEMA grappling, FMA etc... They ALL have the grappler taking control of the blade wielding limb to disarm. Why because they are arts forged on the battlefield know this.

Prove it.

 

[drop bear]

Do you guys realize you're making the same point drop bear has been making for months?

I am playing chess wile everyone else is playing checkers.

 

[drop bear]

Just for context here are some are some Kali methods to address a knife.

On the second video the instruction starts at 1:40.

To illustrate the point who is better than "Lucky Dog", of the notorious 'Dog Brothers", being willing to take a hit from a shock knife

lesson? secure that damn arm and try to get to the outside and/or get such dominate control of that arm so while you are dealing with that knife arm the bad guy is so concerned about you getting his knife the free arm doesn't come to do something nasty. If you do that with proper control you can strip it using his body, doing trauma to the his limb or using your own body, the ground, a door jam, it really don't matter but you can strip it.

It is different on the street. Different surface. It could be dark. And there are no rules.

It is like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[Buka]

I am playing chess wile everyone else is playing checkers.

Does that mean you won't king me?

 

[Buka]

Watched the UFC preliminary card when I got home from work tonight. What a great kick-back after a hard day's work, white bean and chicken chili, cold Bikini Blonde beer, warm fresh baked brown bread, and ice cold Grey Goose. And a corker of a wheel kick.

Last fight of the prelims ended with a text book wheel kick. Heel to jaw. Hard to tell how any fight will turn out, be it in in sport or in real life, but I don't understand how anyone that trains a striking style can't appreciate MMA. I mean, so much of it is what we do. Anyone who punches and kicks would have said, "That's what I'm f'n talkin' about!"

 

[Juany118]

Do you guys realize you're making the same point drop bear has been making for months?

We have both been making the same point actually (that you need pressure testing) until now when he did a complete 180 and is saying lucking out in one instance = a proven method.

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[Juany118]

It is different on the street. Different surface. It could be dark. And there are no rules.

It is like comparing apples and oranges.

In terms of conditions, you do what you have to do but in essence what you are saying is "if you don't see the knife..." Well yeah, if you don't see the knife because it's too dark you won't know to use the proper techniques but if you can see the knife you can use it. The surface doesn't really matter for the arm grab, if you can do your move you go get control of the arm and the Gracie video I showed illustrates a technique to use if you can't zone to the outside say due to being in a narrow hall way.

Are their times/circumstances where you can't do it? Sure, this however applies to every single MA technique. To say "under circumstance Z it won't work" doesn't mean that under circumstances A-Y it isn't the better choice.

If you tried to grab a persons arm mid shank you would get gutted as well.

I mean it is almost impossible without a knife. But we just flail around hoping to get lucky.

By the way you never mentioned if you fought one knife guy more times than a hundred knife guys.

In terms of mid shank yes, you are going to take a hit, but if they are doing the classic prison "sewing machine" shank you are still better off getting control of that arm. If you don't, while you move through to do an inside guard take down that sewing machine is still going to be shanking the hell out of you.

Yes unarmed against a knife wielder is dangerous as hell but if you just charge in there you are basically saying "kill me".

As for actual knife fighting I do full on sparring/competition al la the last video I posted, though we use chalked blades at the moment we haven't gotten shock knives. If you don't go for that limb you end up "dead" every time, the other way you often end up injured but the times you end up dead are far less.

Prove it.

A few things here. First only need to look at two arts you named to try and defend your position, Judo (also thinking Jujutsu) and HEMA, when you add FMA it becomes more clear. When you look at the traditional Martial Arts documented to be used on the battlefield, that we have records of the techniques they evolved techniques, even when from completely different cultures, specifically designed to deal with a knife and they do it by controlling the blade wielding limb. When different cultures over centuries develop the same thing it is rather telling and if those techniques weren't necessary they wouldn't have evolved so universally. I actually found it odd you mentioned Judo and HEMA for this reason. If someone is arguing you don't need to address the limb wielding the blade but then keep naming battlefield martial arts that evolved techniques to control the limb, it just seemed odd. Even the HEMA video you linked showed this (controlling the blade with a blade to execute the take down) and the article had a woodcut of an unarmed person controlling the limb of an armed person.

When you next add to that the fact Modern Military and Security Forces train it this way you have additional proof because these groups don't train things that they haven't validated.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you guys realize you're making the same point drop bear has been making for months?

He has been arguing against using real experiences as part of validation. Here he is making the argument that a single experience is sufficient validation (and, in fact, that entire systems are based upon that level of validation). Those are not equivalent. His experience is anecdotal evidence, and should go into the hopper as part of the validation. But there must be additional validation. If they aren't actually training those methods against a knife, there's likely no other type of validation (aggressive simulated attacks, etc.) being used.

 

[drop bear]

In terms of mid shank yes, you are going to take a hit, but if they are doing the classic prison "sewing machine" shank you are still better off getting control of that arm. If you don't, while you move through to do an inside guard take down that sewing machine is still going to be shanking the hell out of you.

Yes unarmed against a knife wielder is dangerous as hell but if you just charge in there you are basically saying "kill me".

As for actual knife fighting I do full on sparring/competition al la the last video I posted, though we use chalked blades at the moment we haven't gotten shock knives. If you don't go for that limb you end up "dead" every time, the other way you often end up injured but the times you end up dead are far less.

I saw the last video. If you add punching and kicking the dynamics change. You can't fight into turtle and just hang there.you will get bashed. Then stabbed.

We are also discussing real knives. In a life or death fight it is psychologically different.

 

[drop bear]

He has been arguing against using real experiences as part of validation. Here he is making the argument that a single experience is sufficient validation (and, in fact, that entire systems are based upon that level of validation). Those are not equivalent. His experience is anecdotal evidence, and should go into the hopper as part of the validation. But there must be additional validation. If they aren't actually training those methods against a knife, there's likely no other type of validation (aggressive simulated attacks, etc.) being used.

So if you were not actually training full contact. you probably wont go well in a full contact fight. like self defence.

Even if you got lucky a few times.

 

[drop bear]

Does that mean you won't king me?

Ironically to king someone in Australia means this.

Also they have nazi,s in new Zealand. I mean you have to have some stones to walk up to one of these guys and inform them you are the master race.

 

[drop bear]

A few things here. First only need to look at two arts you named to try and defend your position, Judo (also thinking Jujutsu) and HEMA, when you add FMA it becomes more clear. When you look at the traditional Martial Arts documented to be used on the battlefield, that we have records of the techniques they evolved techniques, even when from completely different cultures, specifically designed to deal with a knife and they do it by controlling the blade wielding limb. When different cultures over centuries develop the same thing it is rather telling and if those techniques weren't necessary they wouldn't have evolved so universally. I actually found it odd you mentioned Judo and HEMA for this reason. If someone is arguing you don't need to address the limb wielding the blade but then keep naming battlefield martial arts that evolved techniques to control the limb, it just seemed odd. Even the HEMA video you linked showed this (controlling the blade with a blade to execute the take down) and the article had a woodcut of an unarmed person controlling the limb of an armed person.

So if we look at wrestling. they control the limb?

 

[Juany118]

I saw the last video. If you add punching and kicking the dynamics change. You can't fight into turtle and just hang there.you will get bashed. Then stabbed.

We are also discussing real knives. In a life or death fight it is psychologically different.

A few things.

1. The last video was simply to show the intensity. If you look at the other videos they address what you do when the other person is doing the punching and the kicking.
2. Whether they punch or kick has a lot to do with how skilled the opponent is and relative strength difference. These two factors related directly to how confident the person is in terms of retaining the knife. If they don't have enough confidence they will not strike or kick because they will be overly concerned about losing the knife and/or having it turned against them.

So you are right on your point about life and death, you just misidentify the dynamic that would be present.

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[Juany118]

So if you were not actually training full contact. you probably wont go well in a full contact fight. like self defence.

Even if you got lucky a few times.

And your answer has what to do with what he said? He was talking about how you are taking one single encounter and claim that validates something that has actually been invalidated by both historic and modern combat grappling arts, a fact you keep avoiding.

Its weird really. At one point you said that grappling arts have a long and storied military history, until it was pointed out those historic arts and now the modern military arts have blade specific unarmed defense. After that you kinda start contradicting yourself. You have spent this entire thread (and others) saying that MMA is one of the better forms of validation/testing (which it is).

That said at one point you liked a response where it was said competition isn't the only one and that occupations, such as Law Enforcement, Military, Corrections etc can provide valdidation. Now though you ignore the fact that Military and Law Enforcement have for centuries validated the techniques I am saying work (heck the techniques were born on the battlefield and evolved in very different cultures all over the world) by raising the very things (life and death, multiple types of environment) which warfare and law enforcement actions replicate better than formal competition. There is no logical consistency in your argument, it's simply whatever you can come up with to address a specific response without caring whether or not you contradict a previous statement.



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[Gerry Seymour]

So if you were not actually training full contact. you probably wont go well in a full contact fight. like self defence.

Even if you got lucky a few times.

At what point did I say full-contact wasn't used? I mentioned some options that are useful. I never said other stuff wasn't.

You're trying really hard, again, to make my argument something other than what was said.

 

[drop bear]

And your answer has what to do with what he said? He was talking about how you are taking one single encounter and claim that validates something that has actually been invalidated by both historic and modern combat grappling arts, a fact you keep avoiding.

Its weird really. At one point you said that grappling arts have a long and storied military history, until it was pointed out those historic arts and now the modern military arts have blade specific unarmed defense. After that you kinda start contradicting yourself. You have spent this entire thread (and others) saying that MMA is one of the better forms of validation/testing (which it is).

That said at one point you liked a response where it was said competition isn't the only one and that occupations, such as Law Enforcement, Military, Corrections etc can provide valdidation. Now though you ignore the fact that Military and Law Enforcement have for centuries validated the techniques I am saying work (heck the techniques were born on the battlefield and evolved in very different cultures all over the world) by raising the very things (life and death, multiple types of environment) which warfare and law enforcement actions replicate better than formal competition. There is no logical consistency in your argument, it's simply whatever you can come up with to address a specific response without caring whether or not you contradict a previous statement.



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Oh. well thats easy.

I will point out non blade specific wrestling has been used to train soldiers for the battlefield. And has been used against weapons effectively. Heck the techniques were born on the battlefield and evolved in very different cultures all over the world.

And that military and law enforcement have validated the techniques I am saying work.