SKK form applications

[DavidCC]

I spent a couple of hours with a high ranking karate guy this last weekend and I have to tell you, the analysis and "bunkai" of kata that we are doing is childsplay compared to what they do. I don't want to write a novel here but the way they apply something as simple as "inward block / punch" to 6 different attacks, each sequence ending with the attacker disabled, was astounding when compared to the work, as good as it is, in this thread.

I'm trying to find time to go learn some more fomr the guy at his school. I only wish he did the pinan forms.

 

[RevIV]

I spent a couple of hours with a high ranking karate guy this last weekend and I have to tell you, the analysis and "bunkai" of kata that we are doing is childsplay compared to what they do. I don't want to write a novel here but the way they apply something as simple as "inward block / punch" to 6 different attacks, each sequence ending with the attacker disabled, was astounding when compared to the work, as good as it is, in this thread.

I'm trying to find time to go learn some more fomr the guy at his school. I only wish he did the pinan forms.

what system does he do? Plus show him the Pinans and i bet he will be able to give his ideas to the movements you are doing. Remember show any form to 5 different Masters from 5 different systems and you will end up with 5 different interpretations.
Jesse

 

[John Bishop]

I spent a couple of hours with a high ranking karate guy this last weekend and I have to tell you, the analysis and "bunkai" of kata that we are doing is childsplay compared to what they do. I don't want to write a novel here but the way they apply something as simple as "inward block / punch" to 6 different attacks, each sequence ending with the attacker disabled, was astounding when compared to the work, as good as it is, in this thread.

I'm trying to find time to go learn some more fomr the guy at his school. I only wish he did the pinan forms.

That's because most traditional karate styles are kata driven systems. Instead of designing self defense sets as independent parts of their systems, they extract much of their techniques from their katas.
It's not uncommon to spend years perfecting one kata. I know when I was training in shotokan, we did 1 form per rank. When we tested we did 1 form. The scoring on testing was 33% kata, 33% basics, 33% sparring. So 1/3 of your score was based on the performance of one kata.
I personally prefer a more live type of training.

 

[RevIV]

That's because most traditional karate styles are kata driven systems. Instead of designing self defense sets as independent parts of their systems, they extract much of their techniques from their katas.
It's not uncommon to spend years perfecting one kata. I know when I was training in shotokan, we did 1 form per rank. When we tested we did 1 form. The scoring on testing was 33% kata, 33% basics, 33% sparring. So 1/3 of your score was based on the performance of one kata.
I personally prefer a more live type of training.

I am not very familiar with The kajukenbo Forms that were created by Sijo and the other founders, but my question is, do the forms have the self-defense techniques in them that are taught within your system? Or, are they just forms and then you do self defense? I know myself and others out here are trying to understand their forms better so they can teach the forms as a long fight but also have the ability to break them down into, as you say, self defense sets as independent parts of their system. I would think that if we could reinforce our forms by using the techniques as independent self-defense situations it would be better for our students learning curve.
Thank You,
Jesse

 

[John Bishop]

I am not very familiar with The kajukenbo Forms that were created by Sijo and the other founders, but my question is, do the forms have the self-defense techniques in them that are taught within your system? Or, are they just forms and then you do self defense? I know myself and others out here are trying to understand their forms better so they can teach the forms as a long fight but also have the ability to break them down into, as you say, self defense sets as independent parts of their system. I would think that if we could reinforce our forms by using the techniques as independent self-defense situations it would be better for our students learning curve.
Thank You,
Jesse

Contrary to what some now claim, James Mitose only taught 1 form, "naihanchi shodan". William Chow taught it sparingly. Sijo Emperado learned it from Chow.
The 14 Palama Sets of Kajukenbo were developed by Sijo and his brother Joe Emperado (# 4 & #7). #11 closely resembles "naihanchi shodan", and has the nickname "dance of death". The rest of the katas were designed from techniques that were practiced as individual techniques.
They mostly teach individual techniques, instead of a series of techniques. Let's use Palama Set 8 as a example. It's called the kicking kata, because it's all kicks. It develops balance and kicking ability, but doesn't really follow the common mindset of defending against different attackers. It just helps you practice different kicks. Most of the katas are like that, practicing techniques, instead of multiple attacker scenarios.
Our self defense techniques are different because of the combination of stand up techniques with a heavy usage of judo and jujitsu techniques. Things you won't see in our katas.
In our katas, a kick is a kick, a block is a block, a punch is a punch, etc. So we spend little or no time on kata application. In fact about the only time I discuss the application is when a student asks "what this for"?
I've seen the SKK "Pinans" and katas, and don't recognize any that are from Kajukenbo. I've heard some SKK people say that the horse stance with a upward X block is from Kajukenbo, but it's not done the Kajukenbo way in the SKK katas. So when I see it, it's just a horse stance and X block. If it was done the Kajukenbo way, it would be done in a series of 5 movements, not 2.
I can see where application is more important in the SKK Pinans since they come from common Okinawan/Japanese systems.
But in my case with Kajukenbo katas, their mostly practiced to develop proficiency in technique, stance, and balance. Like punching and kicking in the air.
Timing and movement is developed from the various punch counters, knife counters, grab arts, sparring, etc.

 

[JTKenpo]

Apparently we have completely rmeoved that entire squat/jump/kick section and replaced it with

...step forward left to left HM with downward X-block. Raise hands, fingers spread (tiger claw) raking face outward with both hands, comnig to elbow pos.
Strike to both eyes with both thumbs, then right front ball kick to SP, step foward into right HM after kick.

This sequence of movements is also our empty hand defense combo 14.

David this is an adaptation of combo#24. It makes sense that your instructor uses it as #14 as he has taken the scissor kick out of 3 kata (comb#14 originally is a left knife block then right scissor kick). Which brings me to the question what is #24 in your system?

JT

 

[JTKenpo]

Sequence 3 I find two seperate sets in and see it more as a training tool then hard core fighting application, although I think the second set has an interesting app.

Set 1 - left downward block step forward pivot to 3 oclock and repeat. In my opinion this section is pointing out what AK calls the inward downward palm up block (the right hand coming across the body closed fist as double factor for the left downward block). It also points out what AK calls the long cover step (step forward without a half moon and then pivot 90 deg.). I am sure that with different foot manuevers these points would change and the section app. would change, but this is the way I teach this section.

Set 2 - Pivot to twist stance executing right tiger claw to face, step back right with left tiger claw to face (repeat with immortal man toward 9 oclock). I like this quite a bit because up to this point we haven't seen the twist stance in our forms. I think this section starts to explore the twist stance as an in place direction change. i also believe this is pointing out how environment can dictate your movements. I don't have the space or time initially to step to fighting stance so I pivot in my stance and strike.

Looking back I'm not sure if this post is application or principle. Oh well.

JT

 

[Jdokan]

David this is an adaptation of combo#24. It makes sense that your instructor uses it as #14 as he has taken the scissor kick out of 3 kata (comb#14 originally is a left knife block then right scissor kick). Which brings me to the question what is #24 in your system?

JT

I thought the same....

 

[DavidCC]

David this is an adaptation of combo#24. It makes sense that your instructor uses it as #14 as he has taken the scissor kick out of 3 kata (comb#14 originally is a left knife block then right scissor kick). Which brings me to the question what is #24 in your system?

JT

I don't think I know #24 yet, and I will have to head over to Matt B's site to see what he has for it. Interesting about #14 and kata 3 ... I'll grab my "Master's Guide" and check our write-up on it...

 

[DavidCC]

That's because most traditional karate styles are kata driven systems. Instead of designing self defense sets as independent parts of their systems, they extract much of their techniques from their katas.
It's not uncommon to spend years perfecting one kata. I know when I was training in shotokan, we did 1 form per rank. When we tested we did 1 form. The scoring on testing was 33% kata, 33% basics, 33% sparring. So 1/3 of your score was based on the performance of one kata.
I personally prefer a more live type of training.

In SKK we have both types, 5 pinan and 5 "kata", so we get to do both.

Although the abstract / applied movements of the more traditional pinan are intersting and fun to tease out, it's less productifve than focusing on the techniques.

Oh and he was Sensei John Kerker of Isshin-Ryu. The good Isshin ryu.

 

[marlon]

That's because most traditional karate styles are kata driven systems. Instead of designing self defense sets as independent parts of their systems, they extract much of their techniques from their katas.
It's not uncommon to spend years perfecting one kata. I know when I was training in shotokan, we did 1 form per rank. When we tested we did 1 form. The scoring on testing was 33% kata, 33% basics, 33% sparring. So 1/3 of your score was based on the performance of one kata.
I personally prefer a more live type of training.

Master Bishop is bang on here. If you take the time to compare your techniques with thier bunkai i really do not think many things will surprise you!!

Marlon

 

[marlon]

the first few movements of 3 kata (before the kick) are a great example of lock up techniques... for wrists, elbows and shoulders. Unlike some others i like this form (my favorite under belt form is a toss up btwn staute of the crane and two man fist set). and the way it ends with #26 is fun because i teach the form before i teach 26 and wait to see how many students notice it!!

marlon

 

[JTKenpo]

and the way it ends with #26 is fun because i teach the form before i teach 26 and wait to see how many students notice it!!

marlon[/quote]

That is funny. I went the exact opposite way. I started teaching 26 to 3rd Brown students because of 3 kata, rather then have them wait to 2nd brown.

JT

 

[RevIV]

and the way it ends with #26 is fun because i teach the form before i teach 26 and wait to see how many students notice it!!

marlon

That is funny. I went the exact opposite way. I started teaching 26 to 3rd Brown students because of 3 kata, rather then have them wait to 2nd brown.

JT[/quote]

Same with me.
Jesse

 

[RevIV]

In our katas, a kick is a kick, a block is a block, a punch is a punch, etc. So we spend little or no time on kata application. In fact about the only time I discuss the application is when a student asks "what this for"?
I've seen the SKK "Pinans" and katas, and don't recognize any that are from Kajukenbo. I've heard some SKK people say that the horse stance with a upward X block is from Kajukenbo, but it's not done the Kajukenbo way in the SKK katas. So when I see it, it's just a horse stance and X block. If it was done the Kajukenbo way, it would be done in a series of 5 movements, not 2.
I can see where application is more important in the SKK Pinans since they come from common Okinawan/Japanese systems.
But in my case with Kajukenbo katas, their mostly practiced to develop proficiency in technique, stance, and balance. Like punching and kicking in the air.
Timing and movement is developed from the various punch counters, knife counters, grab arts, sparring, etc.

Thank you for your response to my question. I like finding out things within other peoples arts.
Jesse

 

[marlon]

and the way it ends with #26 is fun because i teach the form before i teach 26 and wait to see how many students notice it!!

marlon

That is funny. I went the exact opposite way. I started teaching 26 to 3rd Brown students because of 3 kata, rather then have them wait to 2nd brown.

JT[/quote]

i didn't partly because i tend not to change the system i was taught unless something is grossly off. just me, though.
marlon

 

[JTKenpo]

I wanted to share my thoughts on the application just before #26 is executed.

Circle hands counter clockwise while crossing left foot in front of right into twist stance followed by left side kick.

This is probably my favorite sequence in the form. My application is from a double wrist grab. Circling the hands, as in many forms, brings one of the attackers hands under his opposite armpit while pulling them off balance, escaping the wrists, and finally driving them away. Now as they fall off balance execute the side kick. The twist stance is used to gain distance without giving up position.

Jt

 

[JTKenpo]

How do you apply the beginning of four kata?

From double wrist grab, circle the hands striking the outside of the elbow with the left outward block, grabbing the shirt and pulling into the right uppercut followed by left backfist to temple.

 

[Hand Sword]

Could be an arm break of an incoming punch, grab hair (or whatever), pull into uppercut, backfist to nose/face.

 

[marlon]

tighten / shorten the moves and soften your touchand you can get a great shoulder lock here even from an incoming punch

marlon