Pinans and SKK
- Thread starter RevIV
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KempoGuy06
Grandmaster
i like the pinans. at my dojo we do not use individual parts of the forms in drills. I however have learned that i can adapt them and use them in sparring.
like 14k said 1 pinan is very tiger, staight in. it teaches you to move in and strike at the same time very helpful when just starting to spar. 2 pinan adds the rising and falling, multiple strikes to multiple targets, stiking from blocks. again all very useful in sparring as you advance.
I havent seen enough of the art or been doing it for very long to make a decision about editing some or removing some of the forms
B
like 14k said 1 pinan is very tiger, staight in. it teaches you to move in and strike at the same time very helpful when just starting to spar. 2 pinan adds the rising and falling, multiple strikes to multiple targets, stiking from blocks. again all very useful in sparring as you advance.
I havent seen enough of the art or been doing it for very long to make a decision about editing some or removing some of the forms
B
punisher73
Senior Master
Prof. Cerio did not create Pinan 1 and it isn't really based on Shotokan's Heian Shodan. SKK's Pinan 1 is actually Taikyoku Shodan from Shotokan.
Here is a video clip of it:
Here is a video clip of Heian Shodan from Shotokan
It's interesting, in other styles that use the Pinan forms Heian Shodan is actually Pinan Nidan, Gichin switched the order of these two because the 2nd one was acutally easier to learn. The Taikyoku was based on Pinan Nidan/Heian Shodan and was created as a beginner's kata.
Many of you have touched on the lack of applications (bunkai) with this. The reason is that the original applications were NOT a defense against "karate style" attacks. They were used against an aggressive untrained person grabbing/punching etc. If you look at Iain Abernethy's work he goes towards ALOT of putting that information back in the katas. Here is an interesting article about the Pinan/Heian series as it relates to a complete fighting system.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan1.asp
It is an interesting read and shows the progression of distance and types of attacks.
As far as emphasizing or not emphasizing these forms as "Shaolin Kempo" is not Shotokan. That is partially true, Okinawan Kempo does use the Pinans they are not just a "Shotokan kata". So by including the name of "kempo" in it, you are calling attention to it's okinawan roots along with it's Chinese roots.
Here is a video clip of it:
Here is a video clip of Heian Shodan from Shotokan
It's interesting, in other styles that use the Pinan forms Heian Shodan is actually Pinan Nidan, Gichin switched the order of these two because the 2nd one was acutally easier to learn. The Taikyoku was based on Pinan Nidan/Heian Shodan and was created as a beginner's kata.
Many of you have touched on the lack of applications (bunkai) with this. The reason is that the original applications were NOT a defense against "karate style" attacks. They were used against an aggressive untrained person grabbing/punching etc. If you look at Iain Abernethy's work he goes towards ALOT of putting that information back in the katas. Here is an interesting article about the Pinan/Heian series as it relates to a complete fighting system.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan1.asp
It is an interesting read and shows the progression of distance and types of attacks.
As far as emphasizing or not emphasizing these forms as "Shaolin Kempo" is not Shotokan. That is partially true, Okinawan Kempo does use the Pinans they are not just a "Shotokan kata". So by including the name of "kempo" in it, you are calling attention to it's okinawan roots along with it's Chinese roots.
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I don't think that the applications aren't there they just tend to get lost in the "secrets" club. if you aren't such and such a rank then you couldn't possibly understand what that form is teaching us.
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OP
OP
RevIV
Black Belt
Punisher - I do not think that anyone said Prof. Cerio created 1 pinan. I stated that he created 2 pinan. It is interesting to note one other thing. The origins that you state 1 pinan comes from is exactly where Matt B. says they come from. I had Master Chun Jr. at my school a few months ago and he said that his father created 1 pinan and that we should all know that. Thank you again for the links you posted.
It is all in the movements as everyone finds. I think it's great to read too. However, I can't help but wonder if its all just over analyzing.
punisher73
Senior Master
I realize no one in this thread stated that Cerio created the first pinan, I have read other accounts on other places that made it sound like Prof. Cerio took pieces and parts of the pinans and created the first as well. It is sometimes phrased that Cerio reworked Heian Shodan to make Pinan 1. I was just trying to point out that there was no reworking on that one, although he did with the others, and I don't mean to take away from the accomplishments and contributions he did make. Just trying to clear it up historically in that case.
I might be misreading what you wrote. Are you saying that Bill Chun Sr. is credited with the creation of Pinan 1, and it is not Taikyoku Shodan? If I did misread that I apologize.
youngbraveheart
Green Belt
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marlon
Master Black Belt
OP
OP
RevIV
Black Belt
on the first part, my apologies, I was the one who stated that he created 2 pinan in this thread and thought he misread that.
2nd part - As youngbraveheart stated (who is a student of Master Chun Jr) - Yes Master Chun Jr. said that his father created the 1 pinan that we do and it was taught to Prof. Cerio by GM Chun. Sr.
???? um I have always appreciated Master Chun Jr's teachings and have attended his seminars when he is on the east coast but Takyuko son ichi far predates Master Chun Sr. and the only difference is 1 pinan uses a half moon stance while takyuko son ichi uses a forward stance........so I'm with Marlon on this.....huh???? Now that isn't to say that maybe Master Chun Sr was the one who taught it to prof cerio, but to say he created it???...
punisher73
Senior Master
No worries on that, you were just clarifying in case I had misread it.
That's odd that Master Chun states that, but it also demonstrates that some of the katas are clouded when it comes to their actual history and where they came from.
I think that it was probably assumed that before the advent of the internet and everyone having exposure to all the other arts etc. Master Chun Sr. probably did learn it somewhere and taught it and never said where he learned it from so it was assumed by others that he created it (not sure if this is what happened, but I have seen it in other cases)
OP
OP
RevIV
Black Belt
I will have to agree with this statement. Now if myself and students misheard what he said I will be the first to make an open apology on that. If what he meant was that he was that Prof. Cerio learned it from his father and people should know that,, then that is fine too. I am sure these comments are already being discussed over the phone and I will be getting a call.
youngbraveheart
Green Belt
Here's my one cent about the comments regarding forms...
If anything, Grandmaster Chun Sr. was a genius to make modifications to traditional methods of blocking and striking so our (Chow/Chun Method) blocks (and strikes) are simple yet more effective than anything traditional. All of the Chow/Chun Method's forms reflect his modification of basic movements, blocking, and striking. We are definitely different than other Kenpo/Kempo styles.
I don't know the history of all of the Chow/Chun Method's forms, but I'm sure a conversation with Master Chun will clear up any of your questions or concerns about who created what.
If anything, Grandmaster Chun Sr. was a genius to make modifications to traditional methods of blocking and striking so our (Chow/Chun Method) blocks (and strikes) are simple yet more effective than anything traditional. All of the Chow/Chun Method's forms reflect his modification of basic movements, blocking, and striking. We are definitely different than other Kenpo/Kempo styles.
I don't know the history of all of the Chow/Chun Method's forms, but I'm sure a conversation with Master Chun will clear up any of your questions or concerns about who created what.
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youngbraveheart
Green Belt
In my initial post, I neglected to mention that the Chow/Chun Method's Pinan 1 is different than SKK's Pinan 1. On the other hand, I would venture to say that our Basic 1 form is basically Taikyoku Shodan with Grandmaster Chun Sr.'s modifications.
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punisher73
Senior Master
I am always interested in learning more about Chow's methods, but have only seen a couple of clips with Chow in motion and Master Chun Jr. performing some techs.
Would you mind sharing what the modifications are concerning your Basic 1 form that make it distinct? I really am interested in learning more about GoshinJitsu Kai Chinese Kempo.
Hi Johnny,
I have learned Basic 1 from Master Chun Jr. when I was with the Quebec group 2 years ago and from what I remember the difference is the C block and the last part of the form with the cat stances guard.
Dominic
OP
OP
RevIV
Black Belt
Yes your basic 1 is similiar to our 1 pinan. your 1 pinan is similiar to Heian Shodan.
Marlon - As far as I know SGM Pesare did not teach Prof. Cerio 1 pinan. Over the summer SGM Pesare taught me Drill 1, which was similiar to 1 pinan (SKK way) but the turns were different and it kindof went in the opposite direction. No big turn after 3 punches or even 180 degree backward turns.
