SKK form applications

[14 Kempo]

Anybody wish to share ideas on 3 kata?

Sure, first and foremost, I see it as a form against four attackers, all at 90 degree angles (front, back, left and right). The form starts with an assailant grabbing your shoulders/lapels/throat, you draw back into a cat stance, breaking the assailants balance slightly and loosening the grip, then break the hold with the upward movement with your arms, then move inward knocking the arms out of the way and attacking with spearhand pokes to the throat and solar plexus, followed immediately with a kick to drive him/her back.

 

[JTKenpo]

Another application I use with the oppening sequence is to extract each "side", one block one strike. Use the right scoop with the left spear...left to right wrist grab, turn right palm up as in the scoop regrabbing attackers arm and pulling down into chamber forcing attacker to bring foot forward opening his center line for left spear to throat. Same for other "Side" except spear to groin. It gives category completion with blocking and striking hand as well as high strike and low strike.

JT

 

[DavidCC]

I recognize certain pieces but our #3 is significantly different.

 

[DavidCC]

OK, this is kata 3, just a quick outline, I'm sure I've left out 100 important details but hopefull you can get an idea of how it is different .

• Bow/Salute
• overhead x-blcok with open hands, right foot steps out to horse, then elbow position with kiai hands still open.
• step back with right foot to left T stance, strike to 12 with 2 spear hands (rt to eyes, lt to throat)
• draw left foot to cat stance facing 12 as hand circle CCW to "C-Guard" (our C-guard is also diff than you describe, but close)
• step left foot out into left half-moon. #8 knifehand block (left), then #1 knifehand block (right) left to elbow pos.
• step fwd with right to right HM as you double spear-hand (lt to solar plexus, rt to throat).
• Guards up, Left front ball kick to SP, step down forward into left HM. Pivot CW to face 6 and draw right ft to cat stance, with circling double parries clock-wise/outward.
• Step right foot to right HM, then left to left HM with downward X-block. Raise hands, fingers spread (tiger claw) raking face outward with both hands, comnig to elbow pos.
• Strike to both eyes with both thumbs, then right front ball kick to SP, step foward into right HM after kick. Look to 3, draw left foot into left cat facing 3, right at elbow pos, left hand by right ear.
• Step left foot out to left HM facing 3. With dynamic tension in arm execute #8 block (left downward outward).
• Step right foot to left, crossing arms in front of checst with tiger claw fingers. look left to 12, step right foot to 6, draw left foot into left cat facing 12. Circle hands forward and down (CCW?) into guard position.
• Step left foot out to left HM facing 12, then step right foot to meet left.
• bring hands up in front of checst, crossing 'immortal man' fingers. Look left to 9, roll crossed fingers, in, down, out then pull left to knife outward hand block, right to upward block, as you step right to 3 and pivot left to left cat facing 9.
• Maintining position of left knife block (representing grabbing the wrist of the attacker), kick to 9, 3, then 12. Step right foot down to 12 into left side horse facing 6.
• Step left foot behind right into twist stance facing 12, hands to C-guard (right hand high). Left flamingo, "boxing" guards facing 6, left side blade kick to knee at 6, then go back to twist stance with C guard.
• Pivot CCW out of twist stance to left HM facing 3 with #2 knifehand block (combo#26), maintaining position of left hand indicating grabbing the wrist of the attacking arm.
• Leopard fist to Solar Plexus, step right foot to 1030 (twist stance) with upward leopard paw to tricep (Heart 2 if you like that kind of thing!).
• Pivot CCW, strike with left outward elbow to Solar Plexus and right claw to groin. Scoop downward grabbing attacker's right ankle with left hand.
• As attacker falls, step to 3 with rt foot into right half moon facing 3, downward palm heel to testicles KIAI
• Pivot to face 12, dropping right knee to floor. Rise to right flamingo with upward crane's wrist, then downward palm heel as you step down with right foot.
• Strike with right rising crane wrist again,with Kiai.
• Salute/Bow

 

[JTKenpo]

OK, this is kata 3, just a quick outline, I'm sure I've left out 100 important details but hopefull you can get an idea of how it is different .

Although they are very different they definately have the same root. Many of the key points of the form are the same.

JT

 

[KENPOJOE]

SK101 was asking for a thread for the applications of the forms. So here you go. My only request is that we start with the kata's first. The pinans are modified shotokan forms and i have seen more variations in these forms over the years then i have in the kata's.

Kata one - first kick and punch - going on the offense, attacking person's knee then face as they bend over. (beginning of kata 2 is the defense for the beginning of kata one). so theres the first section.
In Peace,
Jesse
sk101, top of the thread page there is a tab that says new thread--- thats the one you want to push to start something.

Hi folks!
I realize this post is from quite awhile ago & might have had someone else mention this. I was always taught that Kenpo/kempo is one of the most "groin obsessed" styles of martial arts.
Kata 1/First Chinese Form/Kempo Kata 1 as I was originally taught it in the early 1970's started with a Left Front ball kick to the...balls?LOL! Seriously, it was always taught as a groin kick, never a knee kick.
The intent of the initial kick is to stop the forward momentum of a charging attacker and cause them to bend forward into the subsiquent right front two knuckle punch/reverse punch to opponent's bridge of their nose.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Interesting mine is just the opposite...inside l/knife hand block, left ball kick followed by right front punch then alternate to the other side...

Hi folks!
Dear Jdokan,
There is no knife hand block in the original version of kata 1.
Perhaps you are doing a Nick Cerio influenced version of the form.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
PS:I realize this post was posted long ago, just replying to it now,sorry.

 

[KENPOJOE]

I have never seen it done with the block. On SGM Pesares old 60's circa dvd it shows the kick punch drill as just that a drill they did going up and down the dojo.
The next move turn CCW left foot forward cross block up downward hammer movement with left had, Right front punch chest area then step with Left foot CW to a horse stance at 10'oclock. Bunkai for me- Blocking overhand club or hammer strike, downward hammer is a strike to bladder or groin, as head buckles down strike face with right and when the left foot moves their is a sweep in there (which means when you step out with X block your left foot must be to the outside of opponents right leg.)
In Peace
Jesse
(the next section has more variations that i have seen throughout the different schools- i do the SGM Pesare Version)

Hi folks!
Dear Jesse,
When you when you move CCW initially, Do you "pivot to the rear" [I.E.: From the right half moon stance [facing 12],take your left rear foot and draw to a left cat stance [I won't be specific as to whether it's a 45 or 90 cat because Early Kenpo & SKK are normally not that specific](facing 6) then step out into the left half moon stance?
The application for the sequence of actions can be multiple.
A. a right reverse punch to the face followed by a step through front kick
B. A left step through punch to the face followed by a reverse punch to the groin
C. a right overhead Club followed by the afore-mentioned reverse punch or left kick/and or knee.
There are other variation of attacks but this gives you a basic idea.
In the original version I was taught, it was an upward cross block/downward block/reverse punch
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[LawDog]

KenpoJoe is correct, many of the kicks were to the groin. Later on many of the SKK first / second generation instructors changed many of the groin kicks to front kicks to the mid-section.
The early kata's / pinons were very basic when combaired to today's versions. Tactics are tactics, simple or complex.

 

[marlon]

Hello, i have had problems with my internet, so forgive me for still discussing 1 kata:
moving from sequence 1 to 2 to 3 a left shoulder grab with left hook follow up: allow yourself to be turned and sink your wieght onto the back leg (this can unbalance the person grabbing your shoulder) the are come up to cover your head (a straight spine is essential to your structural integrity) shoot into the forward stance slipping underneath the attackers arm with an inverted hammer to the inner thigh and the thrust "punch" goes past the thighs and grabs at the ankle on the way to sequence 3 cup and saucer.

marlon

 

[marlon]

the end of 1 kata cup and suacer to a back fist with a blade kick: Use a circular motiopn with both hands to trap and twist the arm of the attacker, use a ccw rotation of your body to add wieght to your trap and to turn your targets away from the attacker (cup and saucer) the right hand could extend tyo the eyes while in motion, then bring up your knee as you bring the arm down strikling the elbow then blade kick to the attackers knee (same leg as the knee strike as this was the crane / flamingo for the kick) then back fist to the temple.

marlon

 

[marlon]

2 kata. sequence 2 to sequence 3: block a punch with an inverted ridge then extend towards the face with a spear using the same hand hook the arm as you step forward with the knife hand strike to the cerrebelum using the other hand then press on the tricep or elbow as you twist into a "cat" stance = arm bar

marlon

 

[marlon]

2 kata "chain punches" in close quarters if the attacker gains position "above" you the outward movement of the "block " can unbalance them laterally making it much easier to push forwards with your wieght and a palm / punch with the opposite hand. The effect can be dramactic as most people will root thier position against a linear force but the movement of the "block" changes this and allows you to up root them.

Marlon

 

[marlon]

Before we go on with more applications does anyong want a discussion on the principles these forms teach? Are there any? Should this be another thread? Or is it a waste of time to bring it up?

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[JTKenpo]

Before we go on with more applications does anyong want a discussion on the principles these forms teach? Are there any? Should this be another thread? Or is it a waste of time to bring it up?

Respectfully,
Marlon

Marlon, I don't think any discussion of principle could be construed as a waste of time. I think it would make a great thread!!

JT

 

[DavidCC]

I just noticed that we have a significant "insert" in kata 1 at this point:

Sequence 4: Circle hands counter clockwise coming to rest with left hand forming knife hand at face level and right arm over head in upward block position with open hand palm facing out

Sequence 5: Double knife blocks, open cup and saucer (hidden hands) right spear poke

Sequence 6: Right Dropping palm, left palm heel, right front kick

We do the move described as 'sequence 4'. We don't do 5, instead we do the following before picking back up with this same 6:

look to 9 step right foot forward (1030), turning to face 9, dropping hands. As you plant in horse stance facing 9, strike upwards with both ridgehands, the downward knife-hands.

Right outward block, right inward palm-heel rake and follow-through to left shoulder, right outward block with left inward rake and follow-through to right shoulder

Right knife hand (to attacker at 12), rolling hammer fist to groin (@12), rolling backfist to face (@12), upward palm heel to 12

Draw left foot to cat, pivoting to face 730

then

Sequence 6: Right Dropping palm, step out of cat into left HM facing 730, left palm heel, right front kick, right spear hand to eyes, step-through twist stance to 730 right rear claw to groin. Hard to describe, simple motion in practice.
.......

 

[JTKenpo]

Sure, first and foremost, I see it as a form against four attackers, all at 90 degree angles (front, back, left and right). The form starts with an assailant grabbing your shoulders/lapels/throat, you draw back into a cat stance, breaking the assailants balance slightly and loosening the grip, then break the hold with the upward movement with your arms, then move inward knocking the arms out of the way and attacking with spearhand pokes to the throat and solar plexus, followed immediately with a kick to drive him/her back.

I have never been a fan of the second sequence in 3 kata...Pivot to the rear, execute right back punch facing 6 o'clock then turn counter clockwise 360 deg lowering hieght zone until you can touch the ground then jump into right scissor kick (which I don't teach, I teach a hopping front kick then a back kick. I don't believe a scissor kick to be an effective tool.) The application I have had explained to me I like less then the actual movements. Two attackers one in front (12 oclock) and one behind (6 oclock). Rear attacker grabs shoulder to turn you around and sucker punch you. As this happens knock his hand away with outward block then strike with back punch. At that moment the attacker at 12 oclock attempts a bear hug which you duck under turning towards 6 oclock and execute scissor kick defeating your two foes at the same time....ok if you can't hear the sarcasm trust me its there...This is the way it was explained to me and I would love to hear a different view. Just as a side note I do enjoy 3 kata and like all other aspects of the form but not this section.

Jt

 

[RevIV]

I have never been a fan of the second sequence in 3 kata...Pivot to the rear, execute right back punch facing 6 o'clock then turn counter clockwise 360 deg lowering hieght zone until you can touch the ground then jump into right scissor kick (which I don't teach, I teach a hopping front kick then a back kick. I don't believe a scissor kick to be an effective tool.) The application I have had explained to me I like less then the actual movements. Two attackers one in front (12 oclock) and one behind (6 oclock). Rear attacker grabs shoulder to turn you around and sucker punch you. As this happens knock his hand away with outward block then strike with back punch. At that moment the attacker at 12 oclock attempts a bear hug which you duck under turning towards 6 oclock and execute scissor kick defeating your two foes at the same time....ok if you can't hear the sarcasm trust me its there...This is the way it was explained to me and I would love to hear a different view. Just as a side note I do enjoy 3 kata and like all other aspects of the form but not this section.

Jt

Not my favorite form at all -- In fact if Matt gets into it just trying to figure out where this form comes from is a mystery -- The double front and back kick is prevelent in TKD and Tang Soo do which are influences within our Kempo starting at least as far back with Kajukenbo.
Our Bunkai's to the moves above-
A) - GM Pesare version - After back punch do a fake run away, turning 180 drawing them in and then turn back to 6 o'clock and doing jump kick
B) - Fred Bagley - After Back punch, right sweep pulling person off balance, to a full 360 turn jump kick
C) - Newer version (possibly a USSD thing from the person it was passed down from ((Prof. Rash)) - after back punch, drop low putting weight towards right foot, Left iron broom sweep to the jump kick.
C) is how i teach most of my more athletic and younger students and (A) for my -- how should i put it -- not so limber people--
In Peace,
Jesse

 

[Jdokan]

I've seen a few version from the old USSD/FVSSD/MASTERS/ETC days..
Here's what I morph'd...
I complete the right back punch, pivot the 180 facing that opponent I do an open hand/willow block blocking a head punch, my weight has been transferred to a forward stance, My r/foot does a cresent kick to their forward leg (which ever one stepped in) then shoot an immediate sidekick to the most available target...(while doing this I add a r/hand covering hand/clawing strike-during the cresent..not the sidekick), pivot to position where the sisor kick opponent is and I do a l/sword block & a stepping stoll kick striking with the l/foot....
I agree the sissor kick..though great for training ( I guess) unrealistic....I don't use it for #14 anymore either...

 

[DavidCC]

Apparently we have completely rmeoved that entire squat/jump/kick section and replaced it with

...step forward left to left HM with downward X-block. Raise hands, fingers spread (tiger claw) raking face outward with both hands, comnig to elbow pos.
Strike to both eyes with both thumbs, then right front ball kick to SP, step foward into right HM after kick.

This sequence of movements is also our empty hand defense combo 14.