SKK form applications

[JTKenpo]

After all the block and spears and chain punches there is a movement where you pivot to 9 oclock execute a right dragon tail block (as in 10 point) circle hands upward in an upside down heart shape, grab and right front kick.

I have seen footage of Prof. Cerio doing this form and the stance he works here is extremely low, leading me to believe his intention is to scoop a kick. The heart shape with the hands can be a clearing motion or an escape from a double wrist grab smacking the wrists together at the apex. Followed by the grab and pull into the front kick. This is all well and good done seperately but doesn't make sense as a whole. Can anyone elaborate on their understanding of this section?

 

[JTKenpo]

After all the block and spears and chain punches there is a movement where you pivot to 9 oclock execute a right dragon tail block (as in 10 point) circle hands upward in an upside down heart shape, grab and right front kick.


Defense against a right front kick attackers hands on guard - sweep the front kick outward with right dragontail block (waiters hand). With the downward sweep of the right hand forming the semicircle of the upside down heart shape parry the attackers right hand out of the way and both hands grab attackers throat. Right front kick to the inside of attackers left leg (rear leg) and use the turn as a take down.

 

[JTKenpo]

Anyone care to start 5 kata?

 

[marlon]

the beginning sequence of 5 kata is great to show how finding the center of the opponent and redirecting it can allow you to send them flying either while advancing or retreating. also another example of kempo fighting while technically moving backwards.

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[JTKenpo]

Five kata seems to summarize a lot of what we have seen in 1-4. There are movements taken from the previous four forms which leads me to this assumption (and yes it is only an assumption). But, that does bring in an interesting question. If five kata summarizes 1-4 then why is there six kata? I know that SGM Pesare also has a seven kata which is said to also be an earlier version of swift tigers and I do not know if there are any numbered katas in his system after that. In six kata we also see pieces of other forms and sets (10 point) and # combos as well (#4, 19, 26). For me atleast the last two numbered katas seem to be a summary of the system, not as a whole but very important aspects atleast.

 

[marlon]

Five kata seems to summarize a lot of what we have seen in 1-4. There are movements taken from the previous four forms which leads me to this assumption (and yes it is only an assumption). But, that does bring in an interesting question. If five kata summarizes 1-4 then why is there six kata? I know that SGM Pesare also has a seven kata which is said to also be an earlier version of swift tigers and I do not know if there are any numbered katas in his system after that. In six kata we also see pieces of other forms and sets (10 point) and # combos as well (#4, 19, 26). For me atleast the last two numbered katas seem to be a summary of the system, not as a whole but very important aspects atleast.

honestly i would not put 5 kata in the same category as 6 kata. 6 kata could be looked at as a summary of the system up till then or more likely a training tool to help with flow using the combinations the combinations (there is also #1 and # 6 in there)and it is a great competition form blending a traditional feel into a kempo flavour. i enjoy 5 kata but 6 is far ahead \of it....just my thoughts. Jesse might help us out as 6 kata was created by GM Pesare in the first place...

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[JTKenpo]

honestly i would not put 5 kata in the same category as 6 kata. 6 kata could be looked at as a summary of the system up till then or more likely a training tool to help with flow using the combinations the combinations (there is also #1 and # 6 in there)and it is a great competition form blending a traditional feel into a kempo flavour. i enjoy 5 kata but 6 is far ahead \of it....just my thoughts. Jesse might help us out as 6 kata was created by GM Pesare in the first place...

respectfully,
Marlon

I absolutely agree that 6 kata is far ahead of 5, as it should be or they would both be taught at the same rank. When I said 6 was a summary of the system I thought it was implied up to that point. If it was a summary of the entire system there would be no need to go any further. I didn't mention #1 only because it is slightly different in the form and I didn't mention #6 because well its a front kick. Again, there are many different levels to the actual combo but.....its a front kick. Many different forms could have the front kick isolated and called #6. IMHO

 

[JTKenpo]

Actually the more I think of it the less I see it as #6 in 6 kata. It could be that we are talking about different sections and it could also be that we do the form differently. The section I believe you are referring to is after #1 is executed cross step and roll hammers down (as in pinion opening) then front kick. I was taught to keep the hammers down while executing the front kick due to the application that you are striking simultaneously with both hammers outward and downward as well as the front kick (three different targets). If this was combo #6 I would have guards up.

 

[marlon]

Actually the more I think of it the less I see it as #6 in 6 kata. It could be that we are talking about different sections and it could also be that we do the form differently. The section I believe you are referring to is after #1 is executed cross step and roll hammers down (as in pinion opening) then front kick. I was taught to keep the hammers down while executing the front kick due to the application that you are striking simultaneously with both hammers outward and downward as well as the front kick (three different targets). If this was combo #6 I would have guards up.

interesting i was taught it with guards up after a knuckle roll as in a pinan beginning...

Marlon

 

[marlon]

I absolutely agree that 6 kata is far ahead of 5, as it should be or they would both be taught at the same rank. When I said 6 was a summary of the system I thought it was implied up to that point. If it was a summary of the entire system there would be no need to go any further.

i understand. i just do not see 5 kata as any kind of summary of the system. However, i am open to having you show me how it is!

good discussion

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[RevIV]

I am going to do a generalization of my thoughts + opinions, as well as answering a few of the questions that have been asked on page 8 of this thread. SGM Pesare created 5,6,+7 and was the person who brought Statue of the crane into the system. If my memory serves me right it was a holiday or 100 degrees out or so, and SGM Pesare was pleased at the students who showed up for class so he taught them Rohai (statue of the crane) this is from him not me so dont shoot the messenger. As for combo #6, well sorry but after the knuckle roll that is a Kempo roundhouse kick (ball roundhouse) arms down, either to assume the release of the bear hug or actually holding the persons arms down and kicking them in the heart(directly from the creator). Similiar to the ending in 5 kata after the flying kick and crane stance, the right spear hand strike to the throat and then the clear (which is presented as actually grabbing the arms as person falls back and then drawing them in for the front kick) If we are going to say that every front kick is combo 6, then combo 7 is in 2 kata. combos in 6 kata as far as i know are, 1,4,19,26.
Jesse

 

[RevIV]

JTkempo, I do like the double hammer strikes after combo 1 though. I am trying to get to SGM Pesares dojo in the next few weeks though to go over all of his Pinans (katas) again. I used to do his original 6 katas the same way as he does but have gotten confused on his version of 3 kata so i am relearning it from him. The original 3 kata did not end facing the same direction as it started, that only happened in the tournament series when judges scored the students low for not finishing in the same direction. I have changed most of my Kata's to resemble his originals, not as fluid as the SKK ones but almost identical.
Jesse

 

[marlon]

It is great that you are learning all this from the GM Pesare Jesse. I appreciate you sharing it. I was always taught thatr section of 6 kata as combo #6...live and learn. Now you said it is a kempo roundhouse to the heart...do you me the no pivoting roundhouse that looks like a front ball angles inward?...you know next time i am down that way i will hope to see those original forms!!!

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[RevIV]

It is great that you are learning all this from the GM Pesare Jesse. I appreciate you sharing it. I was always taught thatr section of 6 kata as combo #6...live and learn. Now you said it is a kempo roundhouse to the heart...do you me the no pivoting roundhouse that looks like a front ball angles inward?...you know next time i am down that way i will hope to see those original forms!!!

respectfully,
Marlon

That is the kick that i am talking about. The difference is i do pivot a little - ACL/MCL tears that i do not like aggravating so i do pivot a little bit. Also there is no jump in the original combo #4. Heck in reality the original Combo #4 as created by Prof. Walter Godin ended after the Kempo roundhouse kick to the head. I am going to make a guess that Sijo Gascon added to the technique. Gascon and SGM Pesare walk up the side of the body and do strikes to the neck and groin, they do not jump over the body onto the face and shoulders like in our SKK #4. So here is my question, was it Prof. Cerio or GM Villari that added the jump up/expose the groin leap of faith to the face?

 

[JTKenpo]

I absolutely agree that 6 kata is far ahead of 5, as it should be or they would both be taught at the same rank. When I said 6 was a summary of the system I thought it was implied up to that point. If it was a summary of the entire system there would be no need to go any further.

i understand. i just do not see 5 kata as any kind of summary of the system. However, i am open to having you show me how it is!

good discussion

respectfully,
Marlon

Would love to!

The kata begins by moving forward (1 kata) then moves back on the same line (2 kata). This is also line reenforcement which is taught in 2 kata and also has the blocks and counter strikes on the same hand which you brought up earlier about 2 kata. These linear steps are then followed by circular steps in the wheel backward for the next two sequences. "where linear moves end circular moves begin and where circular moves end linear moves begin". Within these next two sections we have low block high strikes, this I believe is showing the connection of height zones. As you block or strike one height zone another opens. The third section also contains the open hand "scoop" blocks followed by spear hands, which is found in the opening of 3 kata. Then we move into the backfist side kick which we see originally in 1 kata. Here is the interesting part, the next move is the backfist/trap on each side, before the flying side kick, we see this in 5 pinion which wasn't in the system when 5 kata was created so SGM Pesare could very well have been influenced by shotokan as well (pure speculation on my part, I have nothing else to back that statement up). Then after the flying side kick we have the reverse crane stance seen very often in Statue of the Crane. The last section has the back kick to 6 oclock and the spear hand to 12, fighting two different directions simulaneously which is what I believe the underlying principles of 4 kata are; all the pivots.

So this is why I believe 5 kata to be a summary form, again only the way I see it.

 

[JTKenpo]

JTkempo, I do like the double hammer strikes after combo 1 though. I am trying to get to SGM Pesares dojo in the next few weeks though to go over all of his Pinans (katas) again. I used to do his original 6 katas the same way as he does but have gotten confused on his version of 3 kata so i am relearning it from him. The original 3 kata did not end facing the same direction as it started, that only happened in the tournament series when judges scored the students low for not finishing in the same direction. I have changed most of my Kata's to resemble his originals, not as fluid as the SKK ones but almost identical.
Jesse

Very Interesting!! I would love to know why 3 kata did not end in the same direction but 4 kata did with the wheel step to 12 at the end (from facing 6 o'clock with the four knife and spears)??

 

[JTKenpo]

That is the kick that i am talking about. The difference is i do pivot a little - ACL/MCL tears that i do not like aggravating so i do pivot a little bit. Also there is no jump in the original combo #4. Heck in reality the original Combo #4 as created by Prof. Walter Godin ended after the Kempo roundhouse kick to the head. I am going to make a guess that Sijo Gascon added to the technique. Gascon and SGM Pesare walk up the side of the body and do strikes to the neck and groin, they do not jump over the body onto the face and shoulders like in our SKK #4. So here is my question, was it Prof. Cerio or GM Villari that added the jump up/expose the groin leap of faith to the face?

My guess would be Villari. I am very leary of the jump and do NOT teach the leap off of the groin. I find this rediculus. It is hard enough not to roll your ankle when jumping around on uneven ground outside never mind starting by stepping on someone to jump. I teach an adjustment step then jump. Also I show the jump as a finishing touch. The best advertisement for #4 I have ever seen is in every highlight vid of the UFC. Rashad evens is fighting a gentlemen whose name I can not recall but Rashad throughs a roundhouse to the head, his opponent leans over to block the body kick and it lands right in the noggin, knocks him out cold, and Rashad jumps over him to finish. I saw that and stood up and yelled "hey thats combo#4!!!"

This probably should have gone in the combos thread. Oh well.

 

[RevIV]

Very Interesting!! I would love to know why 3 kata did not end in the same direction but 4 kata did with the wheel step to 12 at the end (from facing 6 o'clock with the four knife and spears)??

Answer for 3 kata from SGM Pesare. "these are fighting forms they end where the last person fell, not at the judges" good point on 4 kata and now you are going to make me think - I am pretty sure there were only 3 spears in the original but going to have to ask,, again... going to jump now to your comment about 5 kata and the backfist simo. side kick, that part is not in SGM Pesare's original 1 kata so not sure if that relation can be there. I am glad you pointed it out though, it is as if my brain was not remembering that part of 5 kata and i was mad because I do not do that move in any of my other forms now. (took it out of 1 kata and we do not teach 4 pinan anymore) so thank you for the punch to the head and knocking the cloud that was blocking my eyes in that section of the form.
Jesse

 

[LawDog]

I agree with some of you, that jump thing was/is a non functional technique.

 

[marlon]

Would love to!

The kata begins by moving forward (1 kata) then moves back on the same line (2 kata). This is also line reenforcement which is taught in 2 kata and also has the blocks and counter strikes on the same hand which you brought up earlier about 2 kata. These linear steps are then followed by circular steps in the wheel backward for the next two sequences. "where linear moves end circular moves begin and where circular moves end linear moves begin". Within these next two sections we have low block high strikes, this I believe is showing the connection of height zones. As you block or strike one height zone another opens. The third section also contains the open hand "scoop" blocks followed by spear hands, which is found in the opening of 3 kata. Then we move into the backfist side kick which we see originally in 1 kata. Here is the interesting part, the next move is the backfist/trap on each side, before the flying side kick, we see this in 5 pinion which wasn't in the system when 5 kata was created so SGM Pesare could very well have been influenced by shotokan as well (pure speculation on my part, I have nothing else to back that statement up). Then after the flying side kick we have the reverse crane stance seen very often in Statue of the Crane. The last section has the back kick to 6 oclock and the spear hand to 12, fighting two different directions simulaneously which is what I believe the underlying principles of 4 kata are; all the pivots.

So this is why I believe 5 kata to be a summary form, again only the way I see it.

thanks. now i see my kempo a little better.

marlon