SKK Combos and Various Attacks

[Hand Sword]

As a side note, and my last interference, we're almost on 20 pages and we're still discussing # 3 combination! And still, we haven't come away with any answer of how to do it, or go about it decisively! It also carried over into other threads which involved #6 just as much. You gotta love it in some twisted sense!

Only in the Kempo area can this go on! You at least got to feel some specialness.

 

[SK101]

As a side note, and my last interference, we're almost on 20 pages and we're still discussing # 3 combination! And still, we haven't come away with any answer of how to do it, or go about it decisively! It also carried over into other threads which involved #6 just as much. You gotta love it in some twisted sense!

Only in the Kempo area can this go on! You at least got to feel some specialness.

I actually like that. I wasn't actually looking for an answer to how to do #3. Only looking to see if we can reach 1,000,000 variations of 3(JK). If your really stuck with doing 3 off a cross punch and that is where your heart is I would say do it "left handed off a right cross". Your angle will be varied so you may not use a front punch, but you can always use a hook to the groin or something else.

Does anyone have a variation on higher DM so I don't drive everyone insane with my insistance on playing with #3. I don't usually toy(exp w/variations) with the DMs above the first 6 for some reason so I don't have anything I can really contribute on those.

 

[marlon]

I guess the only solution is when designing a defense do it against a set attack based on realism. If it's a cross then the front leg is the left, etc..

Overall though, this argument can and will go on forever (especially in this forum). I'd rather discuss what the topic is and that's the attacks that the Combos or DM"S are set up for-as is.

agreed, my thing is that i do not look at the dm's as being set up for particular attacks. i see the learning tool of the step through punch to teach the body mechanics and such (like a mini form) and then the application is another story. Realistically we cannot stop and sort throufgh possible responsess to an unexpected attack. we react, hopefully with the right body mechanics then flow logically from there

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[marlon]

This is just my humble opinion.

To me the half moon isn't incorrect it is the easy way to learn a technique since their is more time for the student to react, then you vary from working off a cross punch, hook, grab, kick, to having the attacker spar slow to medium pace while attacking. You learn the alphabet first rather than teaching words first and saying we don't talk with letters.

the reason that the thread on the c step or half mooning convinced me to let it go was the issue of the body mechanics. See the thread and decid for yourself it those issues out weigh the safety issues which imo can be controlled with out the comprimise discussed in the other thread. Your choice, of course

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[DavidCC]

I agree that using a slowly executed, precisely specified attack in the learning stages of acquiring a new technique is absolutely the right thing to do. However, none of those factors dictate that it be a "right half moon w/ front punch to the chest" or even that it be the same attack for every technique.

For many years my teacher taught all of the punch counters against the same punch. But now we are teaching vs haymaker w/ step-thru, cross, hook, roundhouse since each tech seems to work OPTIMALLY against one of them... Using a specific technique against other attacks is still addressed once a student has progressed past the learning stage, even if it is "and here's why you don't go to the outside of a haymaker or the inside of a cross... unless..."

Our program categorizes punch, knife, club, gun and grab techniques but we do also look at mixing those up - doing club tech vs knife, punch vs a grab etc. Each weapon brings its own concerns but the movements can be applied...

 

[SK101]

the reason that the thread on the c step or half mooning convinced me to let it go was the issue of the body mechanics. See the thread and decid for yourself it those issues out weigh the safety issues which imo can be controlled with out the comprimise discussed in the other thread. Your choice, of course

Respectfully,
Marlon

I can understand and respect that. Did you start teaching it to white belts or choose a point where students loose the training wheels so to speak. Just curious what attack are you using for the DMs?

 

[marlon]

I can understand and respect that. Did you start teaching it to white belts or choose a point where students loose the training wheels so to speak. Just curious what attack are you using for the DMs?

i used to teach the half moon the first class. now i simply do not teach it at all. as for the combos we learn each one with the step through punch and then later start adding the variable attacks. we often discuss what was difficult and go back to the basics, practice again with the step through punch with a better understanding of the basics and get better with the variables. More often though i like to have people react from thier intial block and show where such things are in the combos, animal techniques/ jujitsu techniques and forms. My intent is to help them realize the efficacy of thier learning and that way have them bring more to thier practice. My intent is that thier reactions have solid basics and effective follow up movement, and not necessarily to have them pull off a combo perfectly when they are threatened. my intent is to make sure they make it home

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[14 Kempo]

i used to teach the half moon the first class. now i simpley do not teach it at all ...

We teach the halfmoon for a few reasons, but the simpliest reason is to teach people to step through their center. Stepping through their center allows for non-committed movement. I could go more into this, but without having gone through the previous thread talking to this, I will assume it has been covered.

... as for the combos we learn each one with the step through punch and then later start adding the variable attacks. we often discuss what was difficult and go back to the basics, practice again with the step through punch wit habetter understanding of the basics and get better with the varialbes ...

We are the same here. We teach in virtually the same manner.

 

[SK101]

Think about #6 against a left jab, can it be done? I say yes, use the forward leg to deliver a kick the the shin or knee, mostly as a check, but a low level kick can take the juice out of the jab. Yes, you may still get hit, it's a fight, expect it. Get hit with a weakened punch and besides the low kick/check normally brings your opponents head downwatd and within striking range, not a place they want to be in an off-balanced state. Just another thought added to all the others I've read.

I would think even if you don't use it as jab variation of 6, practicing the leg checks are intergral. Utilize the technique anytime someone steps toward you.

 

[SK101]

I wouldn't do that. Leaning your body and weight back takes the power out of your kick going forward. Plus if they are lunginging in, your impact will knock you backward, off balance. It could be messy for you.

I would agree there is less power. I haven't had any problems stopping my training partners so far. I was watching Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's students doing the lean away kick for 3 of their knife attacks on his self defense video volume II. The first technique was pick up two rocks throw one then shoot in with lean away front kick. I like the idea of being to just hit your training partners with rocks. That must work wonders for the stress reduction.

 

[Hand Sword]

Any hitting, where you are not on the receiving end relieves stress! Although, there are some they get relief being on the receiving end too. I dunno.

 

[Hand Sword]

#1 Combo against a south paw. Jab with right, You tight monkey block it and the normally circular arm wrap now picks up the left cross. The right eye rake flows into an arm bar, chicken wrist, take down by stepping in front of their legs-face plant!

 

[Hand Sword]

#1 combo with you on the ground, them mounted, choking you (with 1 or 2 hands): Monkey grab choking tricep/back of arm and pull, Arch body into "cat" stance -- bucking them forward and sideways (they post with free right arm). Do the arm wrap-around their head and back of neck. Continue roll over and finish the technique (rake, chicken wrist, tiger mouth, punch, chop--a little ground and pound! )

 

[Hand Sword]

Opponent lapel grabs you with a left hand and draws back his right for a face puch...do #2 combination while your left hand traps his. The arm will break or open their body up for the rest of the technique!

 

[Hand Sword]

Hmmm.. #2 combination and "Mace of Aggression?" Yep! It's there. Just add #2's takedown and chop to the same attack!

 

[Yondanchris]

I really enjoy Kenpo Joe and Jim Brassard cover the variables of the combinations in their teaching style, I was thankful that others are considering the possibilities.

Interestingly enough, I came across these 2 techs. on youtube today, compliments of our very own KenpoJoe! Rather than start a new thread, I posted them here, as I feel that they are addressing the same topic that we're discussing here.

Combo 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU2FltacEzg&NR=1

Combo 16

 

[Yondanchris]

i used to teach the half moon the first class. now i simply do not teach it at all. as for the combos we learn each one with the step through punch and then later start adding the variable attacks. we often discuss what was difficult and go back to the basics, practice again with the step through punch with a better understanding of the basics and get better with the variables.

Half-Moon movement is important to me because of its prevelance in the SKK forms and its lessons on balance and movement are crucial for a beginner in the Martial Arts much less Kenpo/Kempo.

Beginner students do not have the knowledge and much less the experience, to comprehend or even facilitate multiple variables that we
are talking about. With time, skill, and training Beginner students become aquinted with the art and then are introduced to variables and "extensions" to the base techniques that we are discussing.

Because of these reasons I encourage intermediate/advanced students to
begin thinking of mutations/permutations of these techniques and to place them into catagories or subjects to evaluate on their own. This aids in the forming of their thesis for Black Belt.

My humble yet ignorant .02 cents,

Chris

 

[KenpoJustin]

So as far as the half mooning is concerned we're referring to the practice of having the uke half moon in as he punches, correct? I have to say how I do it, instead of doing the half mooning is you have the uke already have their right leg forward for beginner students and treat the punch as if it were a jab from a south paw, and then I do practice my techniques versus an orthodox boxing stance as well. An interesting thing to do to make it a little more difficult is to have your uke attempt to immediate withdraw the strike as would be expected from a boxer. Those are all changes I try to teach people as they go up in ranks.

Now concerning the initial conversation of combinations from different strikes. I'm gonna jump to 21 just because I enjoy that one! First off, the way I have 21 is with an outward left knifehand block rolling into grabbing the attacker's wrist while stepping underneath their arm and doing a leopard's paw strike to their armpit. After the strike you step your right foot through and your left foot into a right front stance on their back right side while maintaining control of their arm. Followed by a knifehand strike to the back of their elbow into a rolling back fist to the base of their skull. Then a dragon's tail stomp to their right leg and a spinning hook kick to the back of their head after they are forced to take a knee.

I don't see a lot of problems doing this combination from a right cross with the left leg forward. I think the big difference is you may have to step a little further when going under the arm and you may be doing the dragon tail stomp a little more to the side of the knee, which should still successfully compress their knee. Now a slightly more interesting one! I think you could do this technique with the standard method to the outside of the body. Say for example your opponent was in an orthodox boxer's stance and they threw a jab. You could step into a right front stance, while slipping their jab, grab their left wrist, knifehand strike just past their elbow, roll into a backfist to the face, probably just below their left eye. Shift your weight more to your back leg and do a dragon tail stomp to their left leg. Followed by a spinning hook kick from either leg really, but I think going into a good cross step and doing it with your left leg to their back of the skull would be the better move. Anyone have any opinions on this?

 

[KenpoJustin]

Thinking about it again I think the hook would more likely come to the temple... I'm going to have to try this on someone today and see how it works.

 

[RevIV]

I do it slightly different, after the step through we do a downward elbow right above the elbow on the end of the Tricep and then a cross body shuto to the back of the neck followed by a grab of their left shoulder. The grab is crucial if you are doing the spinning hook kick after the stomp. As you stomp bring your right hand (holding shoulder) to your left hip. this forces uke down and keeps them upright at the same time. I like your variations and starting points of the tech. Something I def. could play around with in the school.