SKK Half Moon.......why?

[JTKenpo]

Do your self a favor and add pushes. It answers many questions, like the trapping on #16.

 

[kidswarrior]

Do your self a favor and add pushes. It answers many questions, like the trapping on #16.

Well, I think David has it right with the basic dichotomy of straight punch/round punch, but I believe you rightly add an important point with the pushes concept, JT. In fact, I'd probably make this category *pushes and grabs* since both have a stasis point at which the attacking hand comes to rest against the defender's body, and so can be manipulated.

In other words, I believe there are the hard, percussive blows that David speaks of, and there are the messy, softer-landing pushes and grab attempts which JT points out, and which are subject to manipulation such as trapping.

Or am I missing something?

 

[Hand Sword]

I could see it, but, pushes are going to land anyway as they come about in midst of a verbal exchange. Your response to it comes after the fact. That's ok though, it won't kill you (most likely). They can't be treated in defense like punches.

 

[Hand Sword]

Absolutely, but.....if that is the case then we need to go back and identify what the attack is in all of our combos, which we should anyway. This has been touched upon in other threads. Originally all the attacks were different, as they are in American Kenpo. I believe the thought process should bring us here and just as we look deeper into forms we do that with combos as well. To speculate why the half moon step was introduced to combos as attack I would have to say to simplify things. Bring it to the lowest common denominator so that people didn't have to learn 100 different attacks for 100 different defences. Again speculation, I wasn't there. So if you have been in the game awhile and have done these techniques a thousand or more times you should be comfortable enough with them to branch out for the attack. For better or worse there were changes made in the system to make it more "user friendly". The nice thing is that we all have free thought, so if you don't like the half moon there is no one going to show up and force you to train with it or teach it or like it.

!st point--I agree totally! I did see the watering down go on. However, what allowed me to function throough it were my experiences. That allowed me to do things correctly, in spite of constant reprimands. There is a forcing to use it unfortunately. However, I got away with it, not so much from practice of that a thousand or more times, but because I Knew better. From that view I was very lucky. Most are not, and shouldn't they be taught properly? (not a specific question to you, just one in general)

The last point--my reason for the thread. I was curious of what others do, feel, and how they use the 1/2 mooning. Thank you for your responses. If you like it and use it, how do you fit it in under more realistic circumstances? That's what I'm interested to hear.

 

[14 Kempo]

!st point--I agree totally! I did see the watering down go on. However, what allowed me to function throough it were my experiences. That allowed me to do things correctly, in spite of constant reprimands. There is a forcing to use it unfortunately. However, I got away with it, not so much from practice of that a thousand or more times, but because I Knew better. From that view I was very lucky. Most are not, and shouldn't they be taught properly? (not a specific question to you, just one in general)

The last point--my reason for the thread. I was curious of what others do, feel, and how they use the 1/2 mooning. Thank you for your responses. If you like it and use it, how do you fit it in under more realistic circumstances? That's what I'm interested to hear.

I use half-mooning or c-stepping in the beginning to allow the uke to be very predictable which then allows the student to spend the time needed trying to understand the concepts and theories of the movement before having to worry about getting hit. As a technique becomes more entrenched, we definately move onto more realistic attacks and even experiment with grabs, pushes, single arm, double-arm, left jab/right cross, left jab/right uppercut, etc, etc, etc. Point being that we use the halfmoon in the beginning stages of a given technique for safety, to both parties, and predictablility to allow the student to learn and grow.

If you all are good enough to learn a technique one minute and have a person punch at you with 'street-like' aggression the next, and you don't get knocked out or even hit ... and you're able to master a new technique and/or movement under those conditions ... well, let me just say, you're better than me.

 

[JTKenpo]

I had actually posted that response earlier in the thread but 14kempo said pretty much the same thing here. I use it for safety, it is easier to slap out when you are taken down off of the front leg. I use it so people can focus on the defensive manuever, learn it and internalize it then vary the attack. For me once you say this defensive manuever works against this attack it becomes very difficult for people to break away from that. If you say we are going to start with this attack and then work other attacks it becomes easier to branch out.

I also view the half moon step as a forms version of a step through Just as with form applications there are going to be slight alterations to make the bunkai work.

As for realistic, well it has its uses in getting around someone from a hold but not in a punch application. Bear hugs come to mind first and foremost. Striking the attacker in what ever way you were taught for a bear hug defense then drawing feet together and stepping behind the attacker to set up some sort of throw (again depending on your discipline).

 

[JTKenpo]

Well, I think David has it right with the basic dichotomy of straight punch/round punch, but I believe you rightly add an important point with the pushes concept, JT. In fact, I'd probably make this category *pushes and grabs* since both have a stasis point at which the attacking hand comes to rest against the defender's body, and so can be manipulated.

In other words, I believe there are the hard, percussive blows that David speaks of, and there are the messy, softer-landing pushes and grab attempts which JT points out, and which are subject to manipulation such as trapping.

Or am I missing something?

Not missing a thing. The only reason I would group pushes with punches is that they share similar paths of motion and there intent is to get you going backwards. Where a grab is stationary and normally the thing you have to worry about is not the hand that grabbed you but the free hand which is probably about to be swung.

 

[JTKenpo]

I could see it, but, pushes are going to land anyway as they come about in midst of a verbal exchange. Your response to it comes after the fact. That's ok though, it won't kill you (most likely). They can't be treated in defense like punches.

Um....huh?

Why can't pushes be treated in defense like punches? Do you mean because of the intent to do harm is greater in a punch? Every one of the #combos can be used against a push. As for a push landing, it has the same amount of chance as a punch landing. Unless of course the person drops their hands to their toes to throw the punch. Again if you mean that the damage inflicted by a punch is greater then absolutely but the actual act of defending a push? # combination that does not work against a push?

Actually this would make for an interesting thread of its own. What has to be changed to use each combo off of a different attack? Anyone game?

 

[MJS]

Actually this would make for an interesting thread of its own. What has to be changed to use each combo off of a different attack? Anyone game?

I agree! Here ya go!

Mike

 

[DavidCC]

If you all are good enough to learn a technique one minute and have a person punch at you with 'street-like' aggression the next, and you don't get knocked out or even hit ... and you're able to master a new technique and/or movement under those conditions ... well, let me just say, you're better than me.

a practice attack can have the same "shape" or "path" of the street attack at a slower speed and with less "agression"...

 

[DavidCC]

Um....huh?

Why can't pushes be treated in defense like punches? Do you mean because of the intent to do harm is greater in a punch? Every one of the #combos can be used against a push. As for a push landing, it has the same amount of chance as a punch landing. Unless of course the person drops their hands to their toes to throw the punch. Again if you mean that the damage inflicted by a punch is greater then absolutely but the actual act of defending a push? # combination that does not work against a push?

Actually this would make for an interesting thread of its own. What has to be changed to use each combo off of a different attack? Anyone game?

At a superficial level the SHAPE and APEPARANCE of a straight punch and a one handed push are similar while the push is still ATTEMPTED.
However when examined in more detail, the sturcture and behavior of the attackers legs and hips, hips and torso, torso and arms, arms and hands are all different when punching vs when pushing. It's not just the velocity of the hand moving towards you, it is the shape of the hand, the flex of the wrist, the orientation of the elbow and shoulder etc etc it's all different and so they need to be addressed differently because his reaction to your action will be different (becasue of the difference in his intent and structure).

So while the path of travel of an attempted push and a punch are similar enough to allow you to address them both with the same response, technqiues which rely on predictable reaction from the attacker subsequent to your initial action will take different paths as he reacts differently.


Addressing "pushes vs attempted pushes" forces you to deal with the recovery from the effects of being pushed, and while you are recovering the attacker is still moving too... probably not standing there with his arm or arms outstretched. So I don't think a technique for "a push" is a detailed enough attack scenario to have a single technique to address it. "2 handed push with follow-up right punch" or "2 handed push then bear hug at the waist" or "Right handed push with follow-up left punch" those make for good combos.

 

[14 Kempo]

a practice attack can have the same "shape" or "path" of the street attack at a slower speed and with less "agression"...

Agreed, and that is exactly something that we do after the student grasps the basic concepts and theories behind the new movement(s). We can argue the point all day long, this is how I believe it to be best for my students to learn properly. The way you do it is probably a proven method in how you teach. Neither is wrong, both cover all the bases and reach the same goal.

 

[JTKenpo]

At a superficial level the SHAPE and APEPARANCE of a straight punch and a one handed push are similar while the push is still ATTEMPTED.
However when examined in more detail, the sturcture and behavior of the attackers legs and hips, hips and torso, torso and arms, arms and hands are all different when punching vs when pushing. It's not just the velocity of the hand moving towards you, it is the shape of the hand, the flex of the wrist, the orientation of the elbow and shoulder etc etc it's all different and so they need to be addressed differently because his reaction to your action will be different (becasue of the difference in his intent and structure).

So while the path of travel of an attempted push and a punch are similar enough to allow you to address them both with the same response, technqiues which rely on predictable reaction from the attacker subsequent to your initial action will take different paths as he reacts differently.


Addressing "pushes vs attempted pushes" forces you to deal with the recovery from the effects of being pushed, and while you are recovering the attacker is still moving too... probably not standing there with his arm or arms outstretched. So I don't think a technique for "a push" is a detailed enough attack scenario to have a single technique to address it. "2 handed push with follow-up right punch" or "2 handed push then bear hug at the waist" or "Right handed push with follow-up left punch" those make for good combos.

David, I think you missed my point. In combos I was referring to #1,2,3,4,5.....not jab, cross, shoot for the leg. Again, in the # combo's which one can NOT be used against a push?

 

[JTKenpo]

Agreed, and that is exactly something that we do after the student grasps the basic concepts and theories behind the new movement(s). We can argue the point all day long, this is how I believe it to be best for my students to learn properly. The way you do it is probably a proven method in how you teach. Neither is wrong, both cover all the bases and reach the same goal.

110% agreed!! I Love new ideas and when people show me something I haven't thought of, been shown before, or thought of in that manner it makes me smile for days. But when it turns to "yuhuh....nuhuh" I'm all set thanks.

 

[Doc]

Not missing a thing. The only reason I would group pushes with punches is that they share similar paths of motion and there intent is to get you going backwards. Where a grab is stationary and normally the thing you have to worry about is not the hand that grabbed you but the free hand which is probably about to be swung.

Grabs are NOT stationary.

 

[JTKenpo]

Grabs are NOT stationary.

Ok, how about a dead attack vs a live attack? Can we say a grab is a dead attack?

 

[MJS]

Ok, how about a dead attack vs a live attack? Can we say a grab is a dead attack?

My understanding of this...the hands are committed with the grab. Unlike a punch, which is moving. But, once they have grabbed, the next course of action will either be a push or pull with the grab.

 

[14 Kempo]

My understanding of this...the hands are committed with the grab. Unlike a punch, which is moving. But, once they have grabbed, the next course of action will either be a push or pull with the grab.

... and let us not forget, if it is a single hand grab, the other hand is normally clenched and approaching.

 

[Doc]

Ok, how about a dead attack vs a live attack? Can we say a grab is a dead attack?

No sir. All attacks by definition are "alive." Mr. Parker used to refer to what he called a "dead hand" and utilized that concept in his creation of the "Web of Knowledge." That is once the seizing process is completed, the hand is momentarily "dead." There is a compressed space of time where the hand is doing nothing but seizing. However, this is potentially a very small window depending upon the Psychology of Confrontation Intent of the attacker. However, even seizes or grabs bring with it significant body momentum that will affect your body. Seizes in many cases are no less violent that punches, have the potential to have the same effect as punches, and are no less lethal, and in some cases may be more so. Speaking specifically of "pushes," most pushes begin with first, the intent of a level of intimidation, followed by limited control, usually as a precursor to further action.

 

[DavidCC]

David, I think you missed my point. In combos I was referring to #1,2,3,4,5.....not jab, cross, shoot for the leg. Again, in the # combo's which one can NOT be used against a push?

haha actually you missed mine

our combos, for the most part, depend on specific reactions on the part of the other guy, right? "punch him here, his body does this, that allows me to do that". Not all of them, #6 of course does not LOL, but many do.



SO my point is,

the attacker's reaction to our actions will be different depending on if he is punching or pushing, even though outwardly the attacks appear very similar.




Lets look at #7. This is what we do: wghen you perceive the incoming punch, hop or step to 730 into a left flamingo, deliver a right side thrust kick to floating ribs.

if you are pushed, you cannot do this technique. It's too late. You can regain your balance and do it against his next attack... maybe...

attempted push - if he has his arms 'loaded' (elbows back, hands up by the chest, palms facing forward, weight shifted forward in anticipation of resistance) and you hop to 730 for the kick, he has plenty of time to track your movement and adjust his attack. At the moment he initiates the push (loading his arms) he is probably already MUCH closer to you than he would be if he was going to punch. In reality I think it happens way too fast and too close to head off an attack like this.

So while "arm extended" is a common shape wiithin a push and a punch, they are far from the same attack and deserve to be addressed with different responses.