SKK Combos and Various Attacks

[KenpoJustin]

I do it slightly different, after the step through we do a downward elbow right above the elbow on the end of the Tricep and then a cross body shuto to the back of the neck followed by a grab of their left shoulder. The grab is crucial if you are doing the spinning hook kick after the stomp. As you stomp bring your right hand (holding shoulder) to your left hip. this forces uke down and keeps them upright at the same time. I like your variations and starting points of the tech. Something I def. could play around with in the school.

I like what you're saying about the shoulder hold to keep them up, but if you do a little bit of a slower motion when stepping into your spinning hook kick you'll find it's second nature for a lot of people to start standing up immediately after you do the stomp to the back of their leg. Although some may go into a roll or something to get away from the situation, it is kind of hard to gauge what a real person would do on the response of an uke.

Another thing I've noticed about the combinations, especially the first 26, they're for the most part fairly simple to accomplish during a sparring situation, in my opinion a lot simpler than many of the techniques that I've learned. So I'm wondering if this may necessitate a review of which techniques are really worth keeping. My father was telling me the other day that when he trained with Professor Nick Cerio he said he wasn't a huge fan of anything having a lot of strikes in it, that you'd be lucky if you were fast to get off two or three. I guess that's why he was really big into shotokan, and I think you can see that a lot in Nick Cerio's Kenpo... just some thoughts I was having.

 

[Hand Sword]

It's also realistic too. Hitting someone multiple times, in multiple places, with multiple strikes is almost impossible. Too many reactions, movements by both of you, unexpected things, etc... Think of how even trained fighters have trouble doing that, even when an opponent is "stunned." Now, after striking briefly and going for control (BJJ, wrestling, Clinching, felling, etc..), that's a different take.

 

[KenpoJustin]

So what do people think about combination 4? I read through this entire forum the other day and I don't think it was mentioned. In general it's ridiculously brutal and I don't think expecting the person to fall down immediately after the downward roundhouse ball kick to the chest makes a whole lot of sense. Does anyone have/do the beginning another way to make it actually function as a take down? I have something I was kind of working on, but I'm not sure how well it'd work... It's one of those things I think I'd have to practice quite a few times against an uki with a chest pad. Pretty much I've been trying it with a palm block on the outside of their punching hand, simultaneously while stepping 45 degrees to the left and then a downward roundhouse with effectively your ankle hitting them in the neck and your shin hitting across their chest. Not really so much like the kicks I've been taught in kenpo, because I was doing it without bringing it to crane first. I would love some feed back on this or just other ideas to kind of keep the spirit of the combination but make it seem more realistic.

 

[KenpoJustin]

By entire forum, I meant this thread... my bad.

 

[Josh Oakley]

So what do people think about combination 4? I read through this entire forum the other day and I don't think it was mentioned. In general it's ridiculously brutal and I don't think expecting the person to fall down immediately after the downward roundhouse ball kick to the chest makes a whole lot of sense. Does anyone have/do the beginning another way to make it actually function as a take down? I have something I was kind of working on, but I'm not sure how well it'd work... It's one of those things I think I'd have to practice quite a few times against an uki with a chest pad. Pretty much I've been trying it with a palm block on the outside of their punching hand, simultaneously while stepping 45 degrees to the left and then a downward roundhouse with effectively your ankle hitting them in the neck and your shin hitting across their chest. Not really so much like the kicks I've been taught in kenpo, because I was doing it without bringing it to crane first. I would love some feed back on this or just other ideas to kind of keep the spirit of the combination but make it seem more realistic.

I have that kick to the head. Also, I have a tiger rake to the head before the kick.

Also, how in God's name fo you manage to hit the neck with with your ankle at the same time you hit the chest with your shin? (do you mean instep?)

Plus the way you're stepping, it would be hard to pull off at medium to close range.

 

[Jdokan]

My instructor's version of #4 is more linear. The opening is still left palm to right hand but as the right rediects the punch it isn't as violent, it gets passed off to your left side. As that happens the left hand does a downwards rake followed by 2 more..a right and left. Just as the second left finishes the right foot ball/toe kicks the stomach/sternum. Step forward into a right foot forward twist stacnce and deliver double palms to the midsection driving the opponent backwards and down to the floor...the tricky part with this portion is to ensure the energy/force is downwards to the floor behind them (not towards the wall behind them)...they end up on their back directly in front of you...finsh as usual......For me this is to fancy...a very nice technique but I like the old way...throw the arm & roundhouse them to the face....I don't even bother with the ending movements anymore....

 

[Matt]

As far as I know, the ending (jump over someone who is on their back and break you own ankles trying to land on their round head) did not exist in the Pesare version, and Walter Godin would expressly forbid straddling a downed opponent as they would be likely to execute 'monkey steals the peach' on you. Since Godin is credited as contributing combination four, (see the kaju roots) I'd certainly respect his opinion on it. His version also stepped forward on the initial move, not back. I still do the arm whip to lead their torso into the shin kick that takes them off their feet, but I contemplate the ending very differently these days.

 

[RevIV]

I do the downward rake and kick them in the face, landing in right over left twist. I then pause and watch downed opponent, if they are no longer a threat i continue my cross and cover.. if they are still twitching I uncross stepping near their outer hip with right leg and then one more step with left near head and deliver a final blow with right hand. Taking my time at the end.

 

[Jdokan]

TO deal with a potentially still 'live" opponent we used to heel kick the groin in a upwards scooping action then deliver a downward stomp kick as they reacted to the groin kick....then end with the straddle....I do have mixed emotions about straddling the guy as well but I think depending on the situation the responsiveness of the opponent these are all factors that have to taken into consideration...as we'd do throughout any portion of the technique....We always consider the potential for where we are in a technique: "If I continnue with this do I place my safety in jeopardy"...I think we do this without even thinking about it anymore...isn't that what helps determining advanced skill?

 

[Josh Oakley]

and then a downward roundhouse with effectively your ankle hitting them in the neck and your shin hitting across their chest.

I'm still not understand how this is physically possible.

 

[KenpoJustin]

I'm still not understang how this is physically possible.

I think i was thinking the instep of your right foot hitting the left side of the neck more so than the instep, then hopefully keep following through to have the rest of your leg, i.e. shin go across the left side of their chest. I think it lines up like that especially if they're taller than you. Maybe I'm trying too hard trying to squeeze that in their with the throat strike. I do like some of the comments about how you guys perform this combination. Especially about not doing the finishing up part do to the giant vulnerability you're leaving yourself in... not to mention the legal ramifications!

 

[KenpoJustin]

Sorry, right leg going across the right side of their chest... yeah, again not so sure how well it'd work, need to mess with it. hell maybe I'd be better just forgetting about the neck and trying to lay my entire leg into their chest.

 

[Josh Oakley]

I think i was thinking the instep of your right foot hitting the left side of the neck more so than the instep, then hopefully keep following through to have the rest of your leg, i.e. shin go across the left side of their chest. I think it lines up like that especially if they're taller than you. Maybe I'm trying too hard trying to squeeze that in their with the throat strike. I do like some of the comments about how you guys perform this combination. Especially about not doing the finishing up part do to the giant vulnerability you're leaving yourself in... not to mention the legal ramifications!

This makes more sense than somehow hitting the neck with your ankle
while at the same time hitting the chest with your shin.Anatomically impossible.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi folks!
2 years ago [yes this thread has been going on that long!]
There had been discussion on several of the Karazenpo Goshinjutsu/New England based kenpo/Shaolin Kempo combinations So I thought I'd mention one and go over it and see what people had to say about it and possibly supplement it with a youtube video!
Combination 4:
vs a front right step through straight punch to the face
From a horse stance facing opponent, step back to 6 o'clock into a left halfmoon stance while executing a right upward block [#5 block from the 8 point blocking system] to the underside of opponent's wrist. Grab underside of opponent's wrist with right hand and execute a clockwise vertical sweeping action to clear opponent's hand and open up opponent,causing his upper body and face to draw forward and downward and his arm straightens and extends backward. from the end of your circular arm sweep,your hand in a tiger claw position,executes outward downward diagonal rake to the right side of your opponent's face [preferably at the right maxillary hinge to dislocate the jaw and rip at the right ear] causing the opponent's face to turn to diagonally down to the left as the hand drops to a diagonal downward position past the your right hip. Immediately execute a right roundhouse ball kick to your opponent's heart area [NOTE:some stylists will kick an opponent in the face (nose)] to cause opponent to fall backwards to the ground.[NOTE: the previous bent over position cause the roundhouse kick to work more effectively on said opponent ] As the opponent falls,have your right foot that is still in the air cross over into a twist stance [AKA twisted horse,Lady,Dragon or crossed leg stance {"front twist stance-EPAKK}]toward 7:30,looking to 12-10.30 depending angle of opponent's fall. With your opponent prone with legs apart, execute right front stomping heel kick to opponent's groin.Using his groin a a springboard,push off his scrotum and leap into the air and land with both feet simultaneously on your opponent's face/nose,thereby crushing his nose and splitting his face open. As your feet part, land in ahorse stance over your opponent's face. Squat down and execute {Beginner}a right front two knuckle immediately followed by a left front two knuckle to opponent's nose/face. {Advanced} Execute simultaneous vertical "immortal man" two finger pokes to each eye, followed by a right then left vertical "trigger finger/phoenix eye/one knuckle strike to each sinus cavity/cheekbone of opponent's face. execute a right inward sweeping kick with the arch/sole of your right foot to the left side of your fallen opponent's face to turn it toward you as your foot goes into a right side blade flamingo stance [aka crane stance,one leg stance] and immediately execute a right side blade kick to opponent's face [acting as a vertical knife edge strike to opponent's face. Cross and cover out to 9 o'clock
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

So what do people think about combination 4? I read through this entire forum the other day and I don't think it was mentioned. In general it's ridiculously brutal and I don't think expecting the person to fall down immediately after the downward roundhouse ball kick to the chest makes a whole lot of sense. Does anyone have/do the beginning another way to make it actually function as a take down? I have something I was kind of working on, but I'm not sure how well it'd work... It's one of those things I think I'd have to practice quite a few times against an uki with a chest pad. Pretty much I've been trying it with a palm block on the outside of their punching hand, simultaneously while stepping 45 degrees to the left and then a downward roundhouse with effectively your ankle hitting them in the neck and your shin hitting across their chest. Not really so much like the kicks I've been taught in kenpo, because I was doing it without bringing it to crane first. I would love some feed back on this or just other ideas to kind of keep the spirit of the combination but make it seem more realistic.

Hi folks!
Dear Justin,
I read your post and let me ask you a few questions:
If you read my description of combo #4, at the point of the roundhouse kick, is your opponent's sufficiently bent over w/ right arm extended and twisted to locked position?
Is his face turned away from you rather than looking downward [allowing you to possibly kick him in the right temple?] By placing your opponent in the proper reactionary position, he is far more off balance o knock him down from the kick.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[SK101]

Response to write out on #4

I love the detail on the description of the technique. I don't have the patience to write stuff out in that amount of detail. The only areas I would question are the axe kick to groin and the landing on the face. There have been arguments made that your platform becomes unstable after you hit the groin. Some people view the legs as closer together and step next to the hip without performing any kick before the jump. Others have used an axe ball kick to groin so they can slide there foot onto the floor before jumping.

GM Cerio had once argued that landing on the face would break your ankles as you slide off. I don't know if he was viewing the technique with the head up from a groin strike or with the step to side of hip and jump version. Like any technique there may be a detail that avoids the ankle problem assuming that it is a problem.

Response to applying the takedown

On the takedown the two full applications that I have heard are the continuous change in direction theory where the opponent is extended with the #5 block toward roughly 4:30 then sent back with the arm throw toward 10:30 then pulled 4:30 with the rake and then finally taken off there feet with the roundhouse kick to the nose/face sending them again toward 10:30.

The other was described by my former assistant who punched in for master black from USSD Vegas. He was hit with a roundhouse roughly in the mid sternum and launched into the air. The logo/heart may be a training target for safety. Master Lei from my understanding once hit to high on the roundhouse and wound up striking a students windpipe instead of the sternum nearly killing the student. This was at least a third party conversation I had so always best to recheck the source if someone talks to master Lei in San Diego.

Details on technique

The twist stance in DM/Combo 4 is often translated as a what if. If the take down isn't succesful you have the option to cross out and attack again. You look at the situation as you are moving into the twist and your next move is based on the opponents response.

The strikes to the eyes were taught me as a way to create pressure in the head before striking the temples. If those four strikes are reversed (triggers then immortals) then you are bugging the eyes out with the first strikes and driving them back in with the second. There is an argument against reversing them on this technique as you are coming down after the jump so immortals should be more advantages as you have marriage to gravity on your side.

Misc thoughts

Many MA techniques are hard to verify if we are doing them right when you can't actually try them on people. I don't really care for people landing on my face. I am too sensitive that way.

It is good to see more SK people posting on this sight. I learn and relearn alot when I reread these posts.

 

[SK101]

A variation off 4 - Step toward 10:30 and block overhead club. 2nd move is the same as normal except you use a shuto to neck instead of tiger rake and end technique there.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Many MA techniques are hard to verify if we are doing them right when you can't actually try them on people. I don't really care for people landing on my face. I am too sensitive that way.

It is good to see more SK people posting on this sight. I learn and relearn alot when I reread these posts.

Of course you can try them!
:snipe2:
Just... you know.... don't get caught...

 

[RevIV]

Combination #11.

After the take down I wrap up the leg like a headlock. My forearm (radial bone) is in the middle of their calf and foot is all the way through my lock. I see some schools just hold the foot with their hands after take down. What do the people here do?

 

[Jdokan]

I also wrap the leg...my r/arm encirles their leg while my left hand presses into it...causing more pain to that nerve area...the intent is to cause them to respond to that pain (and not try and fight me while I turn them over).....After the wrap I drop my r/knee into femoral artery of their l/leg....