SKK Half Moon.......why?

[Hand Sword]

This has been touched upon in other threads. Originally all the attacks were different, as they are in American Kenpo. I believe the thought process should bring us here and just as we look deeper into forms we do that with combos as well. To speculate why the half moon step was introduced to combos as attack I would have to say to simplify things. Bring it to the lowest common denominator so that people didn't have to learn 100 different attacks for 100 different defences. Again speculation, I wasn't there. So if you have been in the game awhile and have done these techniques a thousand or more times you should be comfortable enough with them to branch out for the attack. For better or worse there were changes made in the system to make it more "user friendly". The nice thing is that we all have free thought, so if you don't like the half moon there is no one going to show up and force you to train with it or teach it or like it.

What your saying makes absolute sense to me. If you look at a DM you should be able to see a cross hand wrist grab or an overhead club simply by varying mainly initial footwork and the initial block. Often a non straight punch attack is easier to do on a particular DM than the actual way it is initially taught. Having one attack method is a very easy way to get the student to memorize than take them into different attacks once the coordination begins to develop. Saying you have to make it as realistic as possible may be no different than saying you should teach words before letters, because people say words more than they say letters. It is whatever takes the student from point A to B in the least amount of time. Confusion or lack of coordination plagues almost all students in the beginning and if you have one with the coordination early than you can fast track their training by employing higher rank training methods early on if they are ready from day one.

The same precision could be, is and WAS attained BEFORE half mooning came in. The real attacks could be slowed down to make it easier for a new student to get it. Then the wiring in the brain will be used to a more realistic stimuli. In the end the same results were there: safety, coordination (properly for the real stuff), and technique.

 

[punisher73]

Back to half-mooning, I just recently watched a video by Morio Higoanna. He is one of the highest ranking Goju-ryu masters and has always tried to go back to the original chinese sources and focused on reality for his kata applications.

When he talked about the c-step he said it was for practice only and in real application you just move the foot straight ahead when you are trying to move quickly.

 

[DavidCC]

The same precision could be, is and WAS attained BEFORE half mooning came in. The real attacks could be slowed down to make it easier for a new student to get it. Then the wiring in the brain will be used to a more realistic stimuli. In the end the same results were there: safety, coordination (properly for the real stuff), and technique.

I don't know what's in the air today but I feel like I have posted that same thing in like 3 different threads already today

 

[DavidCC]

Back to half-mooning, I just recently watched a video by Morio Higoanna. He is one of the highest ranking Goju-ryu masters and has always tried to go back to the original chinese sources and focused on reality for his kata applications.

When he talked about the c-step he said it was for practice only and in real application you just move the foot straight ahead when you are trying to move quickly.

"if you don't do what you do then what are you doing?"

 

[Doc]

"if you don't do what you do then what are you doing?"

- Ed Parker Sr.

 

[IWishToLearn]

- Ed Parker Sr.

No fair. You were probably there with the other dinosaurs when he first said it.

 

[DavidCC]

- Ed Parker Sr.

you didn't think I wasn't paying attention, did you?

 

[Doc]

you didn't think I wasn't paying attention, did you?

Wise guy! "Fix your rear foot!"

 

[DavidCC]

Wise guy! "Fix your rear foot!"

LOL I must be moving up in the world, this is a big improvement over fixing both feet!

 

[TenTigers]

"It is important to understand that the Chinese taught many different things for many reasons. It was the Okinawan's and Japanese that decided that every move had a physical application, and corrupted the process and misread "indexes of information" and transformed it into what they called Bunkai. Historical anecdotes suggest that the movements are derived from the clearing of the long Samurai Robes, and later "hakama of the Japanese, and is not seen or utilized in that manner in the Chinese Combat Sciences. "

ok, before the "experts" throw the baby out with the bathwater, and "Improve" on their technique by omitting the half-moon or "c" step, let's clarify a few things;
1-every move actually does have a practical application. You may not have been taught it, or cannot see it-yet, but why on Earth would someone add useless movements to a system of fighting designed for lifesaving self-defense?

2- The "C" step was not used for clearing of the robes or hakama, as the feet move freely under the hakama-which HIDES the movements.
3- They most certainly ARE used combatively in "Chinese Combat Sciences."
The "C" step, or half-moon step is used to step to position yourself off centerline or to the blind side of your attacker, or his foot to immobilize it.
It is also used to manuver around a sweep, or for a sweep.
(makes you wonder what Higaonna learned as well. I know several high dan practitioners of Goju-Ryu, who also have very little understanding of their techniques-which is why when they spar, they simply kick/punch. Sad, really.)
Now, the Half-moon STANCE, on the other hand is nonesense. The structural alignments are all disjointed and unconnected, which provides zero base for generation of power, and leaves your groin wide open.

I remember Fred Bagley claiming it was superior, as it forms a tripod.
Any middle school student with basic geometry knows that any two points on a plane, your feet/stance-can be bisected with a perpendicular line of force. There is no tripod-unless you happen to be very well endowed...!

These concepts are taught to beginners in "Chinese Combat Sciences,"
so I don't know where these Experts are getting their info from....

 

[Doc]

"It is important to understand that the Chinese taught many different things for many reasons. It was the Okinawan's and Japanese that decided that every move had a physical application, and corrupted the process and misread "indexes of information" and transformed it into what they called Bunkai. Historical anecdotes suggest that the movements are derived from the clearing of the long Samurai Robes, and later "hakama of the Japanese, and is not seen or utilized in that manner in the Chinese Combat Sciences. "

ok, before the "experts" throw the baby out with the bathwater, and "Improve" on their technique by omitting the half-moon or "c" step, let's clarify a few things;
1-every move actually does have a practical application. You may not have been taught it, or cannot see it-yet, but why on Earth would someone add useless movements to a system of fighting designed for lifesaving self-defense?

2- The "C" step was not used for clearing of the robes or hakama, as the feet move freely under the hakama-which HIDES the movements.
3- They most certainly ARE used combatively in "Chinese Combat Sciences."
The "C" step, or half-moon step is used to step to position yourself off centerline or to the blind side of your attacker, or his foot to immobilize it.
It is also used to manuver around a sweep, or for a sweep.
(makes you wonder what Higaonna learned as well. I know several high dan practitioners of Goju-Ryu, who also have very little understanding of their techniques-which is why when they spar, they simply kick/punch. Sad, really.)
Now, the Half-moon STANCE, on the other hand is nonesense. The structural alignments are all disjointed and unconnected, which provides zero base for generation of power, and leaves your groin wide open.

I remember Fred Bagley claiming it was superior, as it forms a tripod.
Any middle school student with basic geometry knows that any two points on a plane, your feet/stance-can be bisected with a perpendicular line of force. There is no tripod-unless you happen to be very well endowed...!

These concepts are taught to beginners in "Chinese Combat Sciences,"
so I don't know where these Experts are getting their info from....

Some of us "experts" who haven't been around as long as you, are just stupid. However we are speaking within the context of punching and moving forward in stance, so I stand by my assertion with the other dumb experts.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

"It is important to understand that the Chinese taught many different things for many reasons. It was the Okinawan's and Japanese that decided that every move had a physical application, and corrupted the process and misread "indexes of information" and transformed it into what they called Bunkai. Historical anecdotes suggest that the movements are derived from the clearing of the long Samurai Robes, and later "hakama of the Japanese, and is not seen or utilized in that manner in the Chinese Combat Sciences. "

ok, before the "experts" throw the baby out with the bathwater, and "Improve" on their technique by omitting the half-moon or "c" step, let's clarify a few things;
1-every move actually does have a practical application. You may not have been taught it, or cannot see it-yet, but why on Earth would someone add useless movements to a system of fighting designed for lifesaving self-defense?

2- The "C" step was not used for clearing of the robes or hakama, as the feet move freely under the hakama-which HIDES the movements.
3- They most certainly ARE used combatively in "Chinese Combat Sciences."
The "C" step, or half-moon step is used to step to position yourself off centerline or to the blind side of your attacker, or his foot to immobilize it.
It is also used to manuver around a sweep, or for a sweep.
(makes you wonder what Higaonna learned as well. I know several high dan practitioners of Goju-Ryu, who also have very little understanding of their techniques-which is why when they spar, they simply kick/punch. Sad, really.)
Now, the Half-moon STANCE, on the other hand is nonesense. The structural alignments are all disjointed and unconnected, which provides zero base for generation of power, and leaves your groin wide open.

I remember Fred Bagley claiming it was superior, as it forms a tripod.
Any middle school student with basic geometry knows that any two points on a plane, your feet/stance-can be bisected with a perpendicular line of force. There is no tripod-unless you happen to be very well endowed...!

These concepts are taught to beginners in "Chinese Combat Sciences,"
so I don't know where these Experts are getting their info from....

i see and use both halfmoon/cstep, and angular footworks as well.
My prime art is skk, and i use half moon to check and pin with knee, and take out an opponent's stance by doing this, and for sweeps.
everyone has their only style, and thus i say again, "
"Different strokes for different folks!"
LOL!

 

[mwd0818]

They have their use in a very limited form. Unfortunately, it's use is so much more narrow than what most SKK practitioners would like to see.

Getting around a leg? Sure, but why not go through it? You want to sweep it? That's fine - the Half-Mooning is correct, but in SKK it has become isolated on a plane and moves only in two dimensions. Watch judo guys, they do the C-step in 3 dimensional space, and it becomes a much tighter circle and also much more effective.

 

[TenTigers]

Some of us "experts" who haven't been around as long as you, are just stupid. However we are speaking within the context of punching and moving forward in stance, so I stand by my assertion with the other dumb experts.

Nah, I certainly don't think you are stupid, and you have probably been around longer than I have. Throwing out the circling footwork has been going on for quite some time. When I studied TKD in '75, they changed their footwork-"Because you don't walk like this!"
Stepping in to feed a strike using the half-moon step, is just reinforcing muscle memory. I also practice Southern Praying Mantis (Kwong Sai Jook Lum Ji Nam Tong Long P'ai) and when we "feed" during the two man set, the same footwork is used-although we don't use the "Half-moon stance!"
-don't get me started...

 

[TenTigers]

Getting around a leg? Sure, but why not go through it? .

because you can't always go through it. Sometimes, you want to zone to the blind side. Sometimes your opponent is bigger, or has a full head of steam on. If you limit yourself to this, then you cut down on your options. Pretty soon, you have stripped away the essentials.

 

[mwd0818]

because you can't always go through it. Sometimes, you want to zone to the blind side. Sometimes your opponent is bigger, or has a full head of steam on. If you limit yourself to this, then you cut down on your options. Pretty soon, you have stripped away the essentials.

True. There are always exceptions and differences. My comment about "getting around a leg? Sure, but why not go through it?" was designed to be a question that has two answers:

1) Because of xxx (which you supplied an example of)
2) Oh . . . well, maybe that is a better option.

I've been in SKK and half-mooning for 20-something years and they do have a place, but they are over-used in the system and often done thoughtlessly. In addition, there are often better ways of moving that keep a better anatomical structure and amplify the dimensions of your techniques (providing more options). I have also been around a lot of other arts and have seen C-steps and Half-moons used quite a bit, but never so much as in Shaolin Kempo Karate.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

True. There are always exceptions and differences. My comment about "getting around a leg? Sure, but why not go through it?" was designed to be a question that has two answers:

1) Because of xxx (which you supplied an example of)
2) Oh . . . well, maybe that is a better option.

I've been in SKK and half-mooning for 20-something years and they do have a place, but they are over-used in the system and often done thoughtlessly. In addition, there are often better ways of moving that keep a better anatomical structure and amplify the dimensions of your techniques (providing more options). I have also been around a lot of other arts and have seen C-steps and Half-moons used quite a bit, but never so much as in Shaolin Kempo Karate.

some kempo styles now use the "Twist Stance-Step out!"
As well!
LOL!!!
(sounds like maybe another thread??? LOL)

 

[mwd0818]

some kempo styles now use the "Twist Stance-Step out!"
As well!
LOL!!!
(sounds like maybe another thread??? LOL)

Don't get me started on that one . . .