Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[LFJ]

Totally agree with your first bullet. That said, I'm not sure I would go so far as to say the hand shapes themselves are irrelevant for safety as well as optimization reasons.

Hand positions are irrelevant to me in that they are a consequence of what happens at the elbow. The elbow is the important part and where the focus should be.

What I see in your video is the elbow behaving the same roughly at the shoulder line regardless of hand shape/position/action (obviously not counting bong, laan, gam and the like).

Basically what I'm saying is that changes in hand position aren't reflected in elbow position, which means that your actions and hand positions are being led by the wrist/ formed by the hand, not the elbow.

 

[lansao]

Hand positions are irrelevant to me in that they are a consequence of what happens at the elbow. The elbow is the important part and where the focus should be.

What I see in your video is the elbow behaving the same roughly at the shoulder line regardless of hand shape/position/action (obviously not counting bong, laan, gam and the like).

Basically what I'm saying is that changes in hand position aren't reflected in elbow position, which means that your actions and hand positions are being led by the wrist/ formed by the hand, not the elbow.

Interesting perspective and thanks for sharing.

 

[Danny T]

I agree with hand position being unimportant. Elbow is most important as to being the driver. Wrist position is also important.

 

[lansao]

Some more thoughts for the team. With respect, I agree that the elbow is important. In addition to driving force, it is also strategically important to protect as once it's compromised, you're balance and control are put in a position of recovery.

That said, good hands are still important. They're important for the student's protection during chi sao (consistent structure helps avoid finger jamming) and on the dummy. Thumb placement (being tucked back) is also important in order to avoid being jammed when applying pak sao (thumb gets out of the way of incoming fist/strike). From an optimization perspective, having good tight hands helps sharpen/tighten other work by elevating trust in your fingers protection and allowing for nuanced movements to be executed with additional confidence.

I think this conversation is focused on where we place our focus in the Sil Lum Tao. From that perspective, I apologize if the following generalization is too broad. I believe too much focus on any one point or few points of the body can be troublesome. Where focus is placed is a very deep discussion that takes us from focusing on individual parts of the body, to focusing on broader collections, to focusing on the entire self in concert, to focusing on the partner, and finally to neither the self or the opponent, but to the relationship.

Hope that is detail helps explain where we come from. In short, it's all important.

~ Alan

 

[lansao]

What I see in your video is the elbow behaving the same roughly at the shoulder line regardless of hand shape/position/action (obviously not counting bong, laan, gam and the like).

I think I'm understanding this observation now and yes! This consistency is a very important attribute of how we practice. Reducing movement while maintaining structure and slight almost suggestive levels of force. The usefulness of this approach becomes more evident when footwork is applied. With out footwork it can seem pretty odd!

~ Alan

 

[LFJ]

Some of the problems often seen in leading with the wrist/hand are that it creates redundant two-arm defenses, like taan-da, and arm-chasing which in turn can lead to crossing one's own center or in other ways compromising one's own position. These problems are greatly reduced or eliminated by leading with the elbows.

 

[guy b]

Some more thoughts for the team. With respect, I agree that the elbow is important. In addition to driving force, it is also strategically important to protect as once it's compromised, you're balance and control are put in a position of recovery.

That said, good hands are still important. They're important for the student's protection during chi sao

How are the elbows used in your system? Can you give some examples?

Didn't realise you were a teacher with students.

 

[lansao]

How are the elbows used in your system? Can you give some examples?

Didn't realise you were a teacher with students.

Was a student teacher but not Sifu, Sihing. Happy to share more, maybe a video chat (google hangouts or Skype chat etc) makes sense? Not sure if that's against rules for the forum. I'll double check, otherwise I'll share a videos discussing the three layers or rings of protection and yielding.

~ Alan

 

[geezer]

@LFJ --I'm not sure exactly what leading with the wrist means, or how that leads to tan-da or crossing center. I'd welcome clarification here.

As far as proper elbow position and energy, ...yes I do see that as essential, and how it allows a sort of dual functioning of simultaneous offense and defense with the same arm. IMO that is good VT.

 

[LFJ]

@LFJ --I'm not sure exactly what leading with the wrist means, or how that leads to tan-da or crossing center. I'd welcome clarification here.

As far as proper elbow position and energy, ...yes I do see that as essential, and how it allows a sort of dual functioning of simultaneous offense and defense with the same arm. IMO that is good VT.

I mean having your mind at the hand, rather than back at the elbow. Of course, in fighting it should be a non-thinking habit, but if you don't train this way from the beginning (SNT), then such a habit won't be developed.

If your mind is at the hands, you will need one to defend while the other strikes, or defend then strike with the same hand in two beats, because there is no elbow idea.

If at the elbow, the same arm can perform both functions of taan-da. Like pole fighting, the shaft displaces obstructions, the tip is for striking.

As far as crossing center, if your mind is at the hand this can happen easily. Take jam-sau for example, at high speed, high stress, if you react to a feint with the hand it's quite easy to overshoot, crossing the line or dropping the hand, losing counterstrike alignment and opening your center.

If instead you are leading with the elbow, there is a built-in safety from this. Your elbow can't physically cross your own center, and your "gun" will still be aimed at the target. So, whether you react to a feint or not, you're still in good position to attack/defend.

This is in part why we place so much emphasis on the elbow. The built-in, non-thinking defense is almost foolproof. We can maintain our clear striking zone without having to think about how and when to block with which hand.

Many don't train with this idea. In daan-chi-sau practice, many first block down or back with jat-sau or jam-sau at the wrist, and then punch. Many ideas while the one little idea is missing.

 

[guy b]

As far as proper elbow position and energy, ...yes I do see that as essential, and how it allows a sort of dual functioning of simultaneous offense and defense with the same arm. IMO that is good VT.

Great! Have you tried adapting your wedging guard based on these discussions?

 

[guy b]

Was a student teacher but not Sifu, Sihing

You have grading in your wing chun?

Happy to share more, maybe a video chat (google hangouts or Skype chat etc) makes sense? Not sure if that's against rules for the forum. I'll double check, otherwise I'll share a videos discussing the three layers or rings of protection and yielding

I haven't heard of the three rings of protection and yielding so would be interested to learn more. Did you say this is a William Chung derived wing chun?

 

[lansao]

You have grading in your wing chun?
Yes, level tests from 1 to 15. Level 9 is when one can allow students to call them Sifu, I'm a level 4. From 10 through 15 you transition from Sifu to Master and finally Senior Master. That said, the levels are primarily focused on providing a track to understanding the system.

I haven't heard of the three rings of protection and yielding so would be interested to learn more. Did you say this is a William Chung derived wing chun?

I can share more about the concepts for sure. I'll put some notes into a video this afternoon to better explain. My Sifu John Wahnish studied with Philip Holder who completed training with William Cheung, then completed Moy Yat's before, before branching out, adapting both systems and starting the North American Wing Chun association back in the 80s. Since then, Sifu and Sigung have incorporated components of other arts, where useful, applying Wing Chun principles and encouraging their inclusion into the art.

~ Alan

 

[guy b]

I think I'm understanding this observation now and yes! This consistency is a very important attribute of how we practice. Reducing movement while maintaining structure and slight almost suggestive levels of force. The usefulness of this approach becomes more evident when footwork is applied. With out footwork it can seem pretty odd!

~ Alan

Hi Alan, I think LFJ is saying that there is no elbow emphasis evident in your clip, i.e. It is wrist led

 

[lansao]

Hi Alan, I think LFJ is saying that there is no elbow emphasis evident in your clip, i.e. It is wrist led

LFJ and guy, wondering if we're talking about the same things but from different angles. Can you share examples of elbow emphasis?

 

[guy b]

LFJ and guy, wondering if we're talking about the same things but from different angles. Can you share examples of elbow emphasis?

Try this thread

 

[LFJ]

Or try my last post just above.

 

[lansao]

I mean having your mind at the hand, rather than back at the elbow. Of course, in fighting it should be a non-thinking habit, but if you don't train this way from the beginning (SNT), then such a habit won't be developed.

If your mind is at the hands, you will need one to defend while the other strikes, or defend then strike with the same hand in two beats, because there is no elbow idea.

If at the elbow, the same arm can perform both functions of taan-da. Like pole fighting, the shaft displaces obstructions, the tip is for striking.

As far as crossing center, if your mind is at the hand this can happen easily. Take jam-sau for example, at high speed, high stress, if you react to a feint with the hand it's quite easy to overshoot, crossing the line or dropping the hand, losing counterstrike alignment and opening your center.

If instead you are leading with the elbow, there is a built-in safety from this. Your elbow can't physically cross your own center, and your "gun" will still be aimed at the target. So, whether you react to a feint or not, you're still in good position to attack/defend.

This is in part why we place so much emphasis on the elbow. The built-in, non-thinking defense is almost foolproof. We can maintain our clear striking zone without having to think about how and when to block with which hand.

Many don't train with this idea. In daan-chi-sau practice, many first block down or back with jat-sau or jam-sau at the wrist, and then punch. Many ideas while the one little idea is missing.

Just seeing this and great detail. In agreement with this and thanks for sharing. I still find good hands to be important for safety and fine tuning but see where you're coming from in terms of focus.

~ Alan

 

[lansao]

I haven't heard of the three rings of protection and yielding so would be interested to learn more. Did you say this is a William Chung derived wing chun?

Here's a quick video with rings of protection and some yielding. Comments on haircut welcome. Also, the whining in the background is my dog, Sam. Also a guest appearance on the TV stand by Violet, my daughter's favorite stuffed animal.

~ Alan

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here's a quick video with rings of protection and some yielding. Comments on haircut welcome. Also, the whining in the background is my dog, Sam. Also a guest appearance on the TV stand by Violet, my daughter's favorite stuffed animal.

~ Alan

Thanks for the video - I'm enjoying learning a bit about the world of WC. Violet's focus is uncanny.