Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[lansao]

I don't mean to be rude, but it is not actually helpful in the slightest since you don't give any detail about the assumptions, unit structures, and concepts of combat that you mention. This would be the important bit.

No rudeness detected and no worries. Happy to share more direct thoughts overtime if you're interested but fear it expands very quickly into detailed instruction from the 16 or so root hand positions we include.

~ Alan

 

[lansao]

SNT is all about training the elbow.

Good point and definitely one benefit. Conditioning the elbow toward the center or in support of complementary positions (lan, bong, fut) is how I interpret your note. Would you agree with that?

That said, I would attribute the elbow conditioning or really any conditioning resulting from the form to the proper execution of the hand positions themselves as opposed to the general concept of factoring the art to a base representation.

That it is so tightly factored and it's portability was very important in supporting one of its original requirements that it be learned quickly. Very easy form to pick up/memorize. Not so easy to perfect but you start somewhere and, like in calculus, let your delta x approach zero as the integral takes shape.

"Layers donkey, layers." ~ Shrek

~ Alan

Disclaimer: not calling anyone a donkey here.

 

[guy b]

Conditioning the elbow toward the center or in support of complementary positions (lan, bong, fut) is how I interpret your note. Would you agree with that?

Hmm, not really. in WSL VT the whole of SNT is really about the elbow; defining elbow positions and limits of movement, introducing elbow recovery, introducing tan and jum elbow ideas for protection while striking.

 

[lansao]

Hmm, not really. in WSL VT the whole of SNT is really about the elbow; defining elbow positions and limits of movement, introducing elbow recovery, introducing tan and jum elbow ideas for protection while striking.

Great points and thank you for sharing!

 

[LFJ]

I would attribute the elbow conditioning .... to the proper execution of the hand positions themselves

If you focus on hand position, nothing happens at the elbow.

If you focus on elbow position, something happens at the hand.

The hand in all its many shapes is irrelevant. It's the elbow that matters.

It has an enormous impact in terms of strategy and tactics, but it's a subtle idea.

 

[guy b]

Happy to share more direct thoughts overtime if you're interested but fear it expands very quickly into detailed instruction from the 16 or so root hand positions we include.

How does it work with these 16 root hand positions?

 

[lansao]

If you focus on hand position, nothing happens at the elbow.

If you focus on elbow position, something happens at the hand.

The hand in all its many shapes is irrelevant. It's the elbow that matters.

It has an enormous impact in terms of strategy and tactics, but it's a subtle idea.

Totally agree with your first bullet. That said, I'm not sure I would go so far as to say the hand shapes themselves are irrelevant for safety as well as optimization reasons.

Guy b, to help answer I've posted a quick video of me running through the form as I've studied it.

~ Alan

 

[guy b]

Totally agree with your first bullet. That said, I'm not sure I would go so far as to say the hand shapes themselves are irrelevant for safety as well as optimization reasons.

Guy b, to help answer I've posted a quick video of me running through the form as I've studied it.

~ Alan

Thanks for that. So what's the idea behind what you are doing? What do you mean by your 16 root hand positions, and what are the assumptions, unit structures, and concepts of combat that you mentioned?

The way you do the form is not very similar to the way I do it so would imagine that the thinking behind it is probably different

 

[lansao]

Thanks for that. So what's the idea behind what you are doing? What do you mean by your 16 root hand positions, and what are the assumptions, unit structures, and concepts of combat that you mentioned?

The way you do the form is not very similar to the way I do it so would imagine that the thinking behind it is probably different

I think the thinking behind it is different, but not better. Just the way we study, and something that works for me. There are some key differences, including the fut sao section (tan, fut, tan, heun, pak, heun, chamber), and the altitude of some of our hand positions. Our chamber is kept low and to the side but not resting on our sides and our front-facing stance is fairly moderate. We side step with a 50/50 weight distribution and our hand positions are designed to reflect that. I count roughly 16 hand positions (unit structures) that we incorporate (not including variants of each like low bong or the four juts, 6 paks, etc.), they are:

1. bil
2. bong
3. fook
4. fut
5. gum
6. heun
7. jut
8. lan
9. lop
10. pak
11. tan
12. tie
13. tut
14. wu
15. fist
16. palm

They each have evolving stories of their own in terms of application and usefulness in concert with and in transition from each other. Some example benefits:

• Bil has great stopping power for perpendicular or radial striking, great for bridging and "reverse-insertion," eye striking, positional transitions (and more, don't want to limit).
• Bong is useful for deflecting linear strikes, low bong for low strikes, knife defense, yielding support from linear positions (tan, fist, fook, wu, lop, pak, etc.), trap enforcement/wedging (and more, don't want to limit).
• Fook is useful in knife defense, redirection, low strike defense, yielding from bong sao (and more, don't want to limit).

I call these unit structures but structure is kind of a misnomer because structure feels static. They are really more like structured unit movements, maybe I'll use that moving forward. Bong isn't a position, it's a structured movement. Tan isn't a structure, it's a structured movement.

In terms of concepts of combat, I like to draw analogies to music theory for students. When you watch a cellist, or jazz sax player, playing a piece of music, his/her movements and flow are seemingly unified. That said, no matter how beautiful or smooth the shape, we can always draw lines and ask what's to the left or right of it. Those lines are similar to basis in linear algebra, or dimensions. In music, there is the dimension of timing/rhythm, the dimension of individual pitch selection, of pitch combinations, of timbre/quality, of accents, of meter (different from rhythm). Treating hand positions as pitches the analogies hold pretty well but the dimensions (of combat but also of study) I'm familiar with are:

• Contact sensitivity training
• Range training
• Balance/structural training
• Unit movement combinations
• Theoretical study
• Eye placement training
• Power/force application training
• Application micro-study (like practicing musical sequences one measure at a time)
• Application rehearsal (getting comfortable completing application sequences)
• Random study/improvisation training (how balanced is your relevance/randomness ratio in response to application?)
• Full contact sparring

Hope that helps shed some light on my thinking.

~ Alan

 

[guy b]

I think the thinking behind it is different, but not better. Just the way we study, and something that works for me. There are some key differences, including the fut sao section (tan, fut, tan, heun, pak, heun, chamber), and the altitude of some of our hand positions. Our chamber is kept low and to the side but not resting on our sides and our front-facing stance is fairly moderate. We side step with a 50/50 weight distribution and our hand positions are designed to reflect that. I count roughly 16 hand positions (unit structures) that we incorporate (not including variants of each like low bong or the four juts, 6 paks, etc.), they are:

1. bil
2. bong
3. fook
4. fut
5. gum
6. heun
7. jut
8. lan
9. lop
10. pak
11. tan
12. tie
13. tut
14. wu
15. fist
16. palm

They each have evolving stories of their own in terms of application and usefulness in concert with and in transition from each other. Some example benefits:

• Bil has great stopping power for perpendicular or radial striking, great for bridging and "reverse-insertion," eye striking, positional transitions (and more, don't want to limit).
• Bong is useful for deflecting linear strikes, low bong for low strikes, knife defense, yielding support from linear positions (tan, fist, fook, wu, lop, pak, etc.), trap enforcement/wedging (and more, don't want to limit).
• Fook is useful in knife defense, redirection, low strike defense, yielding from bong sao (and more, don't want to limit).

I call these unit structures but structure is kind of a misnomer because structure feels static. They are really more like structured unit movements, maybe I'll use that moving forward. Bong isn't a position, it's a structured movement. Tan isn't a structure, it's a structured movement.

In terms of concepts of combat, I like to draw analogies to music theory for students. When you watch a cellist, or jazz sax player, playing a piece of music, his/her movements and flow are seemingly unified. That said, no matter how beautiful or smooth the shape, we can always draw lines and ask what's to the left or right of it. Those lines are similar to basis in linear algebra, or dimensions. In music, there is the dimension of timing/rhythm, the dimension of individual pitch selection, of pitch combinations, of timbre/quality, of accents, of meter (different from rhythm). Treating hand positions as pitches the analogies hold pretty well but the dimensions (of combat but also of study) I'm familiar with are:

• Contact sensitivity training
• Range training
• Balance/structural training
• Unit movement combinations
• Theoretical study
• Eye placement training
• Power/force application training
• Application micro-study (like practicing musical sequences one measure at a time)
• Application rehearsal (getting comfortable completing application sequences)
• Random study/improvisation training (how balanced is your relevance/randomness ratio in response to application?)
• Full contact sparring

Hope that helps shed some light on my thinking.

~ Alan

Hi, I am not a musician so I guess those analogies don't mean that much to me.

From what I can gather you are saying your system is application based and you tie applications to hand positions?

I don't really understand what you are trying to say regarding ideas behind your SNT form.

 

[lansao]

I think you can say we tie applications to hand positions but don't limit applications. The musical analogy helped me in practice and also to own the form as it relates to me. The understanding took me some time, I had a habit of looking past what was right in front of my nose a lot of the time. That said, the practice is fairly straight forward and explicit in the meantime and once the theory is internalized everything comes together very nicely and consistently when applied to variable combat scenarios. The same can be said for other variants I'm sure, I just prefer the way this one fits for me.

Thanks for the back and forth. Gave me an opportunity to express my thoughts on the art in the way I haven't in a while.

~ Alan

 

[guy b]

I think you can say we tie applications to hand positions but don't limit applications. The musical analogy helped me in practice and also to own the form as it relates to me. The understanding took me some time, I had a habit of looking past what was right in front of my nose a lot of the time. That said, the practice is fairly straight forward and explicit in the meantime and once the theory is internalized everything comes together very nicely and consistently when applied to variable combat scenarios. The same can be said for other variants I'm sure, I just prefer the way this one fits for me.

Thanks for the back and forth. Gave me an opportunity to express my thoughts on the art in the way I haven't in a while.

~ Alan

I'm sorry that I couldn't understand what you were trying to say

 

[geezer]

Lansao -- this discussion is already heading in a bad direction ...only you haven't been on this forum long enough to see that yet. Still, good on ya for sharing. Here's hoping I'm wrong about this!

 

[guy b]

Lansao -- this discussion is already heading in a bad direction ...only you haven't been on this forum long enough to see that yet. Still, good on ya for sharing. Here's hoping I'm wrong about this!

You are wrong on this. I don't understand what lansao is trying to say, so not much to say back

 

[Transk53]

I think you can say we tie applications to hand positions but don't limit applications. The musical analogy helped me in practice and also to own the form as it relates to me. The understanding took me some time, I had a habit of looking past what was right in front of my nose a lot of the time. That said, the practice is fairly straight forward and explicit in the meantime and once the theory is internalized everything comes together very nicely and consistently when applied to variable combat scenarios. The same can be said for other variants I'm sure, I just prefer the way this one fits for me.

Thanks for the back and forth. Gave me an opportunity to express my thoughts on the art in the way I haven't in a while.

~ Alan

Yes as I always say, music is everywhere

 

[lansao]

Thanks geezer. I think all is cool here and the conversation is healthy. I'll admit I'm exercising some of my more dispassionate attributes but guy shared more detail in the process and I learned something through the exchange.

We hug after sparring and smile throughout it.

~ Alan

 

[geezer]

You are wrong on this. I don't understand what lansao is trying to say, so not much to say back

I believe you. But I'll be interested to see what you say when you get more information.

 

[geezer]

Thanks geezer. I think all is cool here and the conversation is healthy. I'll admit I'm exercising some of my more dispassionate attributes but guy shared more detail in the process and I learned something through the exchange.

We hug after sparring and smile throughout it.

~ Alan

Hmmm. It ain't over yet. Let the conversation run on for a while and then see if you feel like hugging!

 

[anerlich]

There's lots of hugging in Jiu Jitsu, but it has little to do with affection.

 

[lansao]

Hmmm. It ain't over yet. Let the conversation run on for a while and then see if you feel like hugging!

I'll get the popcorn ready.

~ Alan