Siu Lim Tau Comparison

[lansao]

Thanks for the video - I'm enjoying learning a bit about the world of WC. Violet's focus is uncanny.

She is unwavering, almost unhuman. Truly an icon.

~ Alan

 

[LFJ]

Just seeing this and great detail. In agreement with this and thanks for sharing. I still find good hands to be important for safety and fine tuning but see where you're coming from in terms of focus.

You said to avoid finger jamming by having a tight hand which also gives you confidence in use.

From your last video, this appears to be because you intend to use all these shapes in applications. Sounds as if your Wing Chun is very technique-based.

I don't do that. For me, taan-sau for instance is a training device to develop a punch. In chi-sau the hand should be relaxed and the fingers can be allowed to curl naturally, or even hold a relaxed fist, because the focus is on the elbow, not the hand. If your hand is too rigid it will tighten up the forearm and stiffen all your actions.

In free fighting, we're not throwing out taan-sau shapes or latching onto arms with fuk-sau shapes. These are just tools in the process of training the elbows for punches with built-in defensive capabilities.

If you are applying them directly in fighting as techniques, I can't see that you agree with me on the elbow focus at all.

 

[lansao]

You said to avoid finger jamming by having a tight hand which also gives you confidence in use.

From your last video, this appears to be because you intend to use all these shapes in applications. Sounds as if your Wing Chun is very technique-based.

I don't do that. For me, taan-sau for instance is a training device to develop a punch. In chi-sau the hand should be relaxed and the fingers can be allowed to curl naturally, or even hold a relaxed fist, because the focus is on the elbow, not the hand. If your hand is too rigid it will tighten up the forearm and stiffen all your actions.

In free fighting, we're not throwing out taan-sau shapes or latching onto arms with fuk-sau shapes. These are just tools in the process of training the elbows for punches with built-in defensive capabilities.

If you are applying them directly in fighting as techniques, I can't see that you agree with me on the elbow focus at all.

Apologies for the confusion. It looks like this may just be a point of departure. Best wishes with your training.

 

[Juany118]

Apologies for the confusion. It looks like this may just be a point of departure. Best wishes with your training.

Well, here is a question Ianson. I study "simple" TWC (if I remember correctly yours appears to be a combination of TWC with something else.)

First, the "tight hand" as I practice it isn't as if I am holding the fist so it's shaking. It is really just about being VERY careful that you form the fist correctly. If you do this is it naturally "tight" without "forcing" the issue and the forearm is still relaxed and we still easily maintain focus on the elbow. (The elbow focus in my experience is pretty much universal in YM WC lineages.)

Second, while clearly we train the punch, eventually the "basic" striking is done more with a palm strikes and specific strikes with biu sau. There are a few reasons for this.

1. The palm is naturally less prone to a prolonged injury than a punch (think a boxers fracture or abrasions from striking the bony structure of the face).
2. Physics. If you strike with the correct portion of the palm there is less surface area being used to strike. If you have the same amount of force striking a smaller area the resulting damage is increased as pressure = force/surface area. Whether you use the heel of the palm or the side, you have a smaller surface hence more pressure/damage.
3. You can flow from a tan, bong etc. in a way that, for me at least, feels more natural as you simply maintain your forward energy and reorient the wrist. Additionally, if you are in a circumstance where flowing into a biu is appropriate.

Again none of this is to say I don't punch, I do, its just that eventually palm striking becomes more common.

 

[lansao]

Well, here is a question Ianson. I study "simple" TWC (if I remember correctly yours appears to be a combination of TWC with something else.)

First, the "tight hand" as I practice it isn't as if I am holding the fist so it's shaking. It is really just about being VERY careful that you form the fist correctly. If you do this is it naturally "tight" without "forcing" the issue and the forearm is still relaxed and we still easily maintain focus on the elbow. (The elbow focus in my experience is pretty much universal in YM WC lineages.)

Second, while clearly we train the punch, eventually the "basic" striking is done more with a palm strikes and specific strikes with biu sau. There are a few reasons for this.

1. The palm is naturally less prone to a prolonged injury than a punch (think a boxers fracture or abrasions from striking the bony structure of the face).
2. Physics. If you strike with the correct portion of the palm there is less surface area being used to strike. If you have the same amount of force striking a smaller area the resulting damage is increased as pressure = force/surface area. Whether you use the heel of the palm or the side, you have a smaller surface hence more pressure/damage.
3. You can flow from a tan, bong etc. in a way that, for me at least, feels more natural as you simply maintain your forward energy and reorient the wrist. Additionally, if you are in a circumstance where flowing into a biu is appropriate.

Again none of this is to say I don't punch, I do, its just that eventually palm striking becomes more common.

Hey Juany, good points. One clarification (and it's my fault after re-reading!), when I use the word "tight" here I mean clean/well formed/concise/"hey, that's tight" hands as opposed to literally tight or tense.

~ Alan

 

[Juany118]

Hey Juany, good points. One clarification (and it's my fault after re-reading!), when I use the word "tight" here I mean clean/well formed/concise/"hey, that's tight" hands as opposed to literally tight or tense.

~ Alan

I thought that was what you meant, just wanted to clarify. Some parts of the human body, fist included, can create a "tight" fit without "force."

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[LFJ]

(The elbow focus in my experience is pretty much universal in YM WC lineages.)

Hmm, I've been looking, but I've found elbow focus to be one of the main things missing from many YM lineages.

Here I'm not talking about just driving force from the hip/elbow, but the tactical element of using the elbows within the fighting strategy.

In TWC for example, you appear to keep distance as you zone to the blindside, requiring more techniques to be done out at the wrist and hand to control the opponent's arm while you strike with the other hand. No use of elbow. Out of range and moving in the wrong direction to be able to.

 

[guy b]

Here's a quick video with rings of protection and some yielding. Comments on haircut welcome. Also, the whining in the background is my dog, Sam. Also a guest appearance on the TV stand by Violet, my daughter's favorite stuffed animal.

How are these ideas used?

 

[lansao]

How are these ideas used?

The three rings help define our "guard." If the first ring is compromised, it yields to the second. If the second ring is compromised, it yields to the third.

A good example of yielding is bong to tan. Let's say my bong is exposing my elbow or I'm feeling forward pressure at my elbow, instead of fighting it we practice yielding to tan sao. In the opposite direction if my tan sao is feeling pressure at the wrist or forearm, I yield to bong sao. The yield is made possible by subtle footwork/stepping off (but near) the line of force.

~ Alan

 

[tomatokilla]

This whole string just blew my mind. Thanks to everyone. I'm with PiedmontChun, I'll just stick to what I know of my system, that'll keep me engaged for the next 40 x years

 

[Juany118]

Hmm, I've been looking, but I've found elbow focus to be one of the main things missing from many YM lineages.

Here I'm not talking about just driving force from the hip/elbow, but the tactical element of using the elbows within the fighting strategy.

In TWC for example, you appear to keep distance as you zone to the blindside, requiring more techniques to be done out at the wrist and hand to control the opponent's arm while you strike with the other hand. No use of elbow. Out of range and moving in the wrong direction to be able to.

Most of the drills you see online are also trying to show what you may do to bridge (and are often redundant, simply to illustrate options) that is the problem with online videos.

The best way to illustrate where I want to be on the blindside is roughly at elbow reach tbh. That is what we want to control in practice.

 

[LFJ]

Most of the drills you see online are also trying to show what you may do to bridge (and are often redundant, simply to illustrate options) that is the problem with online videos.

Okay? Not sure what that has to do with anything here. I'm talking about TWC in use.

The best way to illustrate where I want to be on the blindside is roughly at elbow reach tbh. That is what we want to control in practice.

That's exactly what I mean.

Does TWC not zone to the blindside doing hand techniques to control the opponent's arm, ideally at the elbow, and striking with the other hand?

That's what I mean by maintaining distance, because as I said, it's out of range and moving in the wrong direction to be able to use the elbows tactically in lin-siu-daai-da.

Not saying your method won't work for everyone, but in order to use the elbow as I've described, you must enter along your line of force. From a tactical angle, this will cut the opponent off causing them to be turned as we move forward.

The TWC range and direction of movement won't allow it. To end up on the blindside, you must use lateral footwork to circle out and use hands to control their arm so you can hit them. This leaves a lot of space to allow them recovery options since their body is unaffected by it, leading to more sidestepping and more hand techniques to stop their arms.

Maybe you and others can get it to work for you, but that's not my point and I don't care to argue that. I'm just saying the use of elbows as a tactical element in fighting is not something I see in other lineages. So, it doesn't appear to be "universal" in YM lineages, as you say.

 

[KPM]

Not saying your method won't work for everyone, but in order to use the elbow as I've described, you must enter along your line of force. From a tactical angle, this will cut the opponent off causing them to be turned as we move forward.

---This is seen in CSL Wing Chun as well. It is the difference between moving around the opponent, and making the opponent move around you! Robert Chu says "a shift is a gift!" If your opponent pivots or shifts you simply use it to continue to turn him away from you as you move into his center.

I'm just saying the use of elbows as a tactical element in fighting is not something I see in other lineages. So, it doesn't appear to be "universal" in YM lineages, as you say.

---I tend to agree. Most YM lineages do make use of the "elbow inward" and blocking/attacking at the same time as part of a "cutting" punch. That part is relatively "universal." But they don't make it such a central tenet or tactic as what you have described for WSLVT.

 

[guy b]

The three rings help define our "guard." If the first ring is compromised, it yields to the second. If the second ring is compromised, it yields to the third.

Can you describe how this guard would function in terms of this scenario?

A good example of yielding is bong to tan. Let's say my bong is exposing my elbow or I'm feeling forward pressure at my elbow, instead of fighting it we practice yielding to tan sao. In the opposite direction if my tan sao is feeling pressure at the wrist or forearm, I yield to bong sao. The yield is made possible by subtle footwork/stepping off (but near) the line of force.

What is the purpose of this yielding, is it defensive?

 

[Juany118]

Okay? Not sure what that has to do with anything here. I'm talking about TWC in use.



That's exactly what I mean.

Does TWC not zone to the blindside doing hand techniques to control the opponent's arm, ideally at the elbow, and striking with the other hand?

That's what I mean by maintaining distance, because as I said, it's out of range and moving in the wrong direction to be able to use the elbows tactically in lin-siu-daai-da.

Not saying your method won't work for everyone, but in order to use the elbow as I've described, you must enter along your line of force. From a tactical angle, this will cut the opponent off causing them to be turned as we move forward.

The TWC range and direction of movement won't allow it. To end up on the blindside, you must use lateral footwork to circle out and use hands to control their arm so you can hit them. This leaves a lot of space to allow them recovery options since their body is unaffected by it, leading to more sidestepping and more hand techniques to stop their arms.

Maybe you and others can get it to work for you, but that's not my point and I don't care to argue that. I'm just saying the use of elbows as a tactical element in fighting is not something I see in other lineages. So, it doesn't appear to be "universal" in YM lineages, as you say.

Well my main point is the goal is to get in close. You don't have to circle, yes you move at an angle BUT you go in towards him because you basically want to jam him up, getting in close and taking his balance, it's not simply a manner of controlling his hands to get there. If you end up doing a hand control it's because they caught you unaware. This video is about as good as I have found to illustrate the concept.

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[guy b]

Well my main point is the goal is to get in close. You don't have to circle, yes you move at an angle BUT you go in towards him because you basically want to jam him up, getting in close and taking his balance, it's not simply a manner of controlling his hands to get there. If you end up doing a hand control it's because they caught you unaware. This video is about as good as I have found to illustrate the concept.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

This is exactly what LFJ is describing above

 

[guy b]

Not saying your method won't work for everyone, but in order to use the elbow as I've described, you must enter along your line of force. From a tactical angle, this will cut the opponent off causing them to be turned as we move forward.

---This is seen in CSL Wing Chun as well. It is the difference between moving around the opponent, and making the opponent move around you! Robert Chu says "a shift is a gift!" If your opponent pivots or shifts you simply use it to continue to turn him away from you as you move into his center.

I'm just saying the use of elbows as a tactical element in fighting is not something I see in other lineages. So, it doesn't appear to be "universal" in YM lineages, as you say.

---I tend to agree. Most YM lineages do make use of the "elbow inward" and blocking/attacking at the same time as part of a "cutting" punch. That part is relatively "universal." But they don't make it such a central tenet or tactic as what you have described for WSLVT.

Hi KPM, do you have any clips of this cutting punch from the CSL system?

 

[KPM]

Hi KPM, do you have any clips of this cutting punch from the CSL system?

It is not unique to the CSL system. This is the part I was pointing out that is fairly "universal" to most Wing Chun lineages from what I have seen. I don't have a video. I'm referring to the punch that can cut inward across the opponent's punch from above to "exclude" it from the attacking line as you do your own punch. I think you would likely say it is punching with a "jum" elbow.

 

[lansao]

It is not unique to the CSL system. This is the part I was pointing out that is fairly "universal" to most Wing Chun lineages from what I have seen. I don't have a video. I'm referring to the punch that can cut inward across the opponent's punch from above to "exclude" it from the attacking line as you do your own punch. I think you would likely say it is punching with a "jum" elbow.

We call it the capping punch.

~ Alan

 

[Nobody Important]

It is not unique to the CSL system. This is the part I was pointing out that is fairly "universal" to most Wing Chun lineages from what I have seen. I don't have a video. I'm referring to the punch that can cut inward across the opponent's punch from above to "exclude" it from the attacking line as you do your own punch. I think you would likely say it is punching with a "jum" elbow.

Called an outer gate punch when atop opponents arm and inner gate punch when under in YCW WC.