Should a Black Belt begin a new art as a White Belt?

[Adept]

There can be very important differences in the way one style throws a punch versus the way another style does; the mechanics may feed different options or set up different follow ups.

Absolutely, and a student should always have the reasoning explained to them.

"We do it this way, because of this"

And then the student should decide whether or not that different way is for them.

 

[jks9199]

Absolutely, and a student should always have the reasoning explained to them.

"We do it this way, because of this"

And then the student should decide whether or not that different way is for them.

I actually think this is tied to the whole belt issue. I envision 2 different training relationships at work; that of a visitor, who only experiments with another system, and that of the person who chooses to learn a different system. Each involves a very different mindset. The visitor can pick and choose; they simply have to "play along" for the few hours they spend with working with the new system. For example, say I were to attend a few judo classes, simply to develop better breakfalls and learn a throw or two. I'm not trying to learn judo; I'm getting a few pieces of judo and grafting them into my home system. But, if I decide that I want to learn judo, I have to start at the bottom, and learn their ways of doing things, and I have to accept their ways as long as I choose to train in judo. (An analogy might be made between ordering a la carte and ordering a dinner platter.) If I'm experimenting or visiting, I may wear my black belt. But if I'm studying the system -- I'll wear a white belt.

If you choose to train in a system, you accept that you have to do things their way, at least while you are training in it. You don't, no matter your rank, have the option to decide which part you'll accept and which you'll reject; you're training in the system and that means accepting the whole thing. Of course, this is just my opinion... But if you want to learn about or learn a particular technique from another system, rather than actually train in and learn the system -- then you can pick and choose. You can dump what you don't like.

 

[crushing]

It doesn't look that way to me. Right above what you highlighted he says, "The instructor told me that nobody could take away what I have already earned so he had me wear my black belt to his classes." In what you highlighted he says, "When I was promoted in his style, I would receive a colored chevron that I had to sew onto the sleeve of my gi." I'm taking that to mean that he's wearing his black belt and sewing yellow - orange - green - etc. chevrons onto the sleeve of his gi to show where he is in the new curriculum.

:asian:

Hi green meanie,

Perhaps I misunderstand, or I wasn't clear. You say it doesn't look that way to you, but then I don't see disagreement in your explanation.

The chevrons will be symbolic of the achieved belt rank, rather than the belt itself in the new art. fnorfurfoot is not a black belt in the new art despite wearing a black belt.

:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Allright you negative repers; the whole point of wearing the back belt is for the other students not you. geez... rep away.

 

[green meanie]

Hi green meanie,

Perhaps I misunderstand, or I wasn't clear. You say it doesn't look that way to you, but then I don't see disagreement in your explanation.

The chevrons will be symbolic of the achieved belt rank, rather than the belt itself in the new art. fnorfurfoot is not a black belt in the new art despite wearing a black belt.

:asian:

Hehe. No worries. Maybe I'm just the confused one then. :asian:

 

[Adept]

If you choose to train in a system, you accept that you have to do things their way, at least while you are training in it. You don't, no matter your rank, have the option to decide which part you'll accept and which you'll reject;

While I agree with the rest of your post, I strongly disagree with this part.

If you are taught something you don't like, ask to have it explained to you. If it still doesn't seem right, or you have a better option from another art, then drop the orginal technique and use the better one. Sticking with Judo just because it's Judo and you are learning Judo so you should only be doing Judo only serves to limit yourself.

 

[fnorfurfoot]

While I agree with the rest of your post, I strongly disagree with this part.

If you are taught something you don't like, ask to have it explained to you. If it still doesn't seem right, or you have a better option from another art, then drop the orginal technique and use the better one. Sticking with Judo just because it's Judo and you are learning Judo so you should only be doing Judo only serves to limit yourself.

I agree with what you are saying from a personal knowledge point of view, but I believe that if you are training in a particular system you should follow that system's rules. If you want to alter techniques on your own time because it is what you personally believe is right, by all means go for it. But when it comes to test time, you need to do what you were taught. If you dissagree so strongly with they way of doing things, you need to find a different instructor.

 

[jks9199]

While I agree with the rest of your post, I strongly disagree with this part.

If you are taught something you don't like, ask to have it explained to you. If it still doesn't seem right, or you have a better option from another art, then drop the orginal technique and use the better one. Sticking with Judo just because it's Judo and you are learning Judo so you should only be doing Judo only serves to limit yourself.

You skipped the second part of my paragraph:

But if you want to learn about or learn a particular technique from another system, rather than actually train in and learn the system -- then you can pick and choose. You can dump what you don't like.

I'm distinguishing between two very different approaches to learning martial arts. One is about learning the system; not just a few moves, but the hows and whys and wherefores that go into it and underlie it. The other is about developing your own personal fighting style, and finding what works for you, based on whatever combination of training, experience, insight, skills, and wisdom you bring to the table. Neither is superior to the other; both are effective. And I've used both in my own training; in fact, I believe everyone has the responsibility as their training advances to develop their own personal style. The issue becomes one of where you start.

Say that you enjoy learning parts of various systems; fantastic. There are lots of very skilled fighters who do that. And, as you do that, you have every right to pick and choose what you integrate into your personal tool box. But, others choose to learn "the system", and if you make that choice, you have to accept that you have to learn it their way, in my opinion. You can't decide to only learn the parts that you like; then you're not learning the system. If you don't like what they're teaching or how they're explaining it -- you have a simple choice. Go elsewhere. Or -- if you're concern is only to learn something about the system or a particular set of moves, that's fine. Then you can reject what you don't like...

And -- after you've learned their principles, you absolutely can integrate them with your previous training. In fact, you absolutely should be doing that -- in my opinion, again. I know I'm not alone in this view; consult Forrest Morgan's book Living the Martial Way to find at least one person who agrees with me.

 

[Marginal]

And -- after you've learned their principles, you absolutely can integrate them with your previous training. In fact, you absolutely should be doing that -- in my opinion, again. I know I'm not alone in this view; consult Forrest Morgan's book Living the Martial Way to find at least one person who agrees with me.

But, Forrest Morgan is of the belief that someone trained in one art shouldn't waste time in formal study of a similar art since they're redundant. He said if I remember correctly that you should just find a few BB's from the style of interest and train informally with them to see what they do differently.

 

[Grasshopper22]

In some martial arts, once you earn your black belt the black belt your instructor gives you is made of satin and it's white underneath so eventually the black wears off and the master become the student again to complete the cycle.

 

[clfsean]

Dude... this is the second one today you've resurrected. 5 years on this one...

 

[puunui]

In the past, I generally start back at white belt whenever I join a new school, because I think it is important to start from the beginning in order to understand my new teacher's perspective on the art. I certainly start at white belt if I am starting a new style in a new school. That is a no brainer.

 

[chinto]

That is normally up to the head instructor of the school. many will have you wear your belt if you are a brown belt or above. but then some will not. Like I said its up to your instructor. when I started the second style of karate, I arrived with my gi and a white belt in my bag and in the bottom my other belt because I forgot to take it out. I leave the belt in the bag when i take it home to wash the gi so I do not forget it. anyway I was approached by my new Sensei, before class as i tied the white belt. He asked me if I had my brown belt with me? I answered yes, and he told me to put it on. I said I would but line up with the white belts, his answer was " if I wanted you to line up there I would have you wear a white belt." I did learn the kata and things quickly and he promoted me differently then a new student. so it is not unusual to have an upper belt treated that way depending on the Sensei.

 

[Haakon]

In some martial arts, once you earn your black belt the black belt your instructor gives you is made of satin and it's white underneath so eventually the black wears off and the master become the student again to complete the cycle.

I've never heard of that, sounds rather like something from a fortune cookie. Who told you, or where did you read it? Black belts naturally fade over the years, they're usually just dyed cotton afterall, so many do get white wear marks, but I've never heard of that symbolizing anything other than someone who's been a black belt for a dang long time.

 

[Cyriacus]

If I were a Black Belt in TKD, that doesnt mean I should be able to go out and start as anything but a White Belt in Judo, if I were to go do Judo for some reason.

 

[frank raud]

I've never heard of that, sounds rather like something from a fortune cookie. Who told you, or where did you read it? Black belts naturally fade over the years, they're usually just dyed cotton afterall, so many do get white wear marks, but I've never heard of that symbolizing anything other than someone who's been a black belt for a dang long time.

First you start with a white belt, and never wash it. It gets yellow with sweat, you start working groundwork and it becomes green, eventually turning to black, then as it ages further, it sheds the outer layer and becomes white again. Nice story, too bad it isn't true.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

I most likely think that a black belt from another Martial Art system who is going to train at a different art should start at white belt because the curriculum is at least almost completely different from the previous system he trained in, but nonetheless he or she can progress faster and possibly earn black belt within two years.

However, let's you have earned a black belt certification in Meibukan Goju-ryu and then change organizations, but not systems to the IOGKF Goju-ryu, then it is not necessary to start back to white belt and work your way up to black belt because the curriculum for both organizations are exactly the same, only the techniques and applications of those techniques from templates can be a little different.

 

[chinto]

I've never heard of that, sounds rather like something from a fortune cookie. Who told you, or where did you read it? Black belts naturally fade over the years, they're usually just dyed cotton afterall, so many do get white wear marks, but I've never heard of that symbolizing anything other than someone who's been a black belt for a dang long time.

that is indeed why the under part of the black belt is white. It does symbolize becoming the student again. Also I can tell you that when you do teach you learn more then you teach more often then not. sometimes its because you find you see something about a technique or kata you had not seen before, and others its that you have to brake it down completely to explain some question that never would have come to you in that context to that part of a kata or what have you.

Either way you are again the student in some ways! and its really cool!!

 

[shima]

Also I can tell you that when you do teach you learn more then you teach more often then not. sometimes its because you find you see something about a technique or kata you had not seen before, and others its that you have to brake it down completely to explain some question that never would have come to you in that context to that part of a kata or what have you.

As my instructor says "to teach is to learn twice." It's so true.

My first black belt is in Karate. When I later moved states and started studying Tae Kwon Do, the instructor there let me retain my black belt and line up with the black belts (But learn all the new curriculum of course). After almost 3 years once I'd perfected their kata's for 1st degree black belt, I tested for my black there. A year later I moved states again and this time started to study Kenpo. Again I was allowed to retain my black belt(s) from my previous schools but this time I had to line up in order of my rank in their style. It's really all about the instructors preference how they treat your black belt. I'm ok with whatever the instructors preference is.

 

[Buka]

I actually think this is tied to the whole belt issue. I envision 2 different training relationships at work; that of a visitor, who only experiments with another system, and that of the person who chooses to learn a different system. Each involves a very different mindset. The visitor can pick and choose; they simply have to "play along" for the few hours they spend with working with the new system. For example, say I were to attend a few judo classes, simply to develop better breakfalls and learn a throw or two. I'm not trying to learn judo; I'm getting a few pieces of judo and grafting them into my home system. But, if I decide that I want to learn judo, I have to start at the bottom, and learn their ways of doing things, and I have to accept their ways as long as I choose to train in judo. (An analogy might be made between ordering a la carte and ordering a dinner platter.) If I'm experimenting or visiting, I may wear my black belt. But if I'm studying the system -- I'll wear a white belt.

If you choose to train in a system, you accept that you have to do things their way, at least while you are training in it. You don't, no matter your rank, have the option to decide which part you'll accept and which you'll reject; you're training in the system and that means accepting the whole thing. Of course, this is just my opinion... But if you want to learn about or learn a particular technique from another system, rather than actually train in and learn the system -- then you can pick and choose. You can dump what you don't like.

Forgive my tardiness, but I just read this post for the first time.

Pure Gospel.