Should a Black Belt begin a new art as a White Belt?

[Marginal]

My new instructor explained his reasoning a little better. He doesn't really have a plan for me to promote through his system like a regular white belt would. His system is close enough to what I already do that he feels like I am going to run through it rather quickly. I just need to learn the particulars of his system. So instead of having his white and yellow belt students wonder why I was working with blue belts when I was just with them a couple of weeks before, I should keep my current rank and then he can pair me up with whoever he wants at the time without causing confusion.

I think in arts that are fairly similar, there's usually no reason to start over at white, since most of your skills will carry over and its more an issue of picking up the new flavor more than learning new techniques etc. If the arts were signifigantly different (say, you moved into Judo) then I'd think it would be silly to wear a BB while you're essentially starting from scratch in that art.

 

[IWishToLearn]

I just started studying a new style of MA this week and the instructor told me to wear my black belt to the classes. I was expecting to start as a white belt and was kind of hoping that I would. The same thing happened when I started studying GoJu. The instructor told me that nobody could take away what I have already earned so he had me wear my black belt to his classes. When I was promoted in his style, I would recieve a colored chevron that I had to sew onto the sleeve of my gi.

At the time I had a problem with his reasoning. I may be a black belt in Kenpo, but I was just starting Goju. It felt wrong. When the class started or ended, I would have to line up at the white belt end of the room, but my belt visually outranked everyone else in the room accept the head instructor. Plus I felt like an idiot when brand new students would come to ask me questions and I would have to explain that I was new too.

My new instructor explained his reasoning a little better. He doesn't really have a plan for me to promote through his system like a regular white belt would. His system is close enough to what I already do that he feels like I am going to run through it rather quickly. I just need to learn the particulars of his system. So instead of having his white and yellow belt students wonder why I was working with blue belts when I was just with them a couple of weeks before, I should keep my current rank and then he can pair me up with whoever he wants at the time without causing confusion.

I was wondering what everone's thoughts were on this.

I'm of the same mind as you when I start at a new location. I've started over now 4x and I won't have it any other way.

For my own students, I allow them to wear whatever uniform they like for classes. If they choose to go through the ranking structure I require them to wear the commensurate rank in our system to their skill level in our system. Thus far it hasn't been an issue - because everyone thus far has voluntarily taken off their previous rank and started at white. I choose to recognize people who have previous training by giving them a belt that has a black stripe running the length of the belt. White w/black stripe, yellow w/black stripe, etc. This is the indicator that serves several purposes. These people generally pick up things very quickly and for the other new people that start at the same time as the ones with previous training, seeing their meteoric progress comparitively speaking sometimes has a detrimental effect. When they are explained that the black stripe means black belt from another style, the pressure goes away and they refocus on their training like they're supposed to.

 

[IWishToLearn]

Maybe I'm just crotchety but a kick is not a kick and a punch is not a punch between various arts. I have seen more people that were taught poorly or just plain old differently then were taught the same when comparing styles.

To use a bit of an anaology, to me it's like comparing fruit - obvisouly when comparing the apples (striking arts) to the oranges (locking / grappling arts) to the peaches (weapon arts) there are very stark difference and one would think that it is obvious that they are different enough to remain appart in terms of title and classification.

What gets me is that people seem to be more willing to blur the lines when comparing apples, me not so much so. Apples can be as different from each other as from other fruit - red delicious (Goju Ryu), golden delicious (Shotokan), spartan (Tae Kwon Do), empire (Kempo), macintish (Muay Thai) etc etc.

Just because you are a really tasy red delicous doesn't mean that you would be any good as a macintosh ;p

VERY WELL SAID!!!

 

[dianhsuhe]

Good thread! I started a new Martial Art as a white belt after I had earned BB in another. I was excited to empty my cup and fill it up again...Heck I looked forward to just "taking in" the class and material instead of teaching all of the time.

In your case however I would do as the instructor says-

 

[Sukerkin]

An interesting thread and a wide array of opinions made known, which is always good :tup:.

For myself, having only progressed to black sash/shodan in two completely different arts (kung fu and iaido) this has never been an issue, particularly as we don't wear outward signs of rank in iaido anyway .

However, in my early years in Lau (I think I was a green belt when this happened) I ran into a 'new-starter' who, unbeknownst to me, was a black belt, shotokan karate. In the free sparring session, I was told to help this pre-'white sash' fellow out and show him whats what. He proceeded to wipe the floor with me in front of everyone, much to my embarassment (remember I was young enough to care about such things as ego back then ).

What I'm trying to say is that wearing the outward signs of previous rank is not only for that persons benefit but also for those they train with. I think that the decision under discussion (wear your original rank with a shoulder flash to show rank-in-style) is a good solution to a difficult problem. The other students know you are an experienced artist and also know what you have learned of your newly adopted style. No-ones in the dark or makes false assumptions and, as long as your sensei makes it known you haven't 'demanded' you wear your BB, everyones happy.

As to whether 'belts' are necessary {other than for holding up your trousers :lol:}, I have to agree with Tez that they are invaluable to a Western, goal-oriented, mind set. They give a tangible sense of progression by small steps and also allow for comparison with your fellows.

Imagine if in the dojo you were thrown in with a bunch of people, all of differing abilities but you had no idea what was right, what was wrong, who was good, who was a beginner et al.

The rankings are to help people along by not giving them a cliff to scale all in one go. If you're a white belt training with your fellows and look over and see the 4th Dans going at it, you're going to think "I'll never be able to do that!". But if you see the yellow belts there instead, doing similar stuff to you but just a bit better, you think "I could do that if I practice a bit harder".

Of course, that falls down a bit in iai because we don't have that helpful visual clue. However, we know what rank we're all at anyhow because the class sizes are much smaller than an empty handed art. Plus, if we're being formal, you know where you stand, literally, because that is determined by seniority .

 

[scottcatchot]

I think it is good that you are concerned with this, it shows that you are not hung up on having a BB. I do agree that you should respect your instructors wishes. If the styles are as similar as it sounds, then you will progress at a very rapid speed and so you would not have the white belt long anyway. Besides, The important thing is that your mind is open to being taught and you have a humble attitude. If you approached the training with the attitude that you already know everything because you have a black belt or judge everything you are shown against your other art, then your attitude will hinder your learning regardless of the color of belt you wear. Based on your posts thi does not seem to be the case, therefore your training should be enjoyable and beneficial regardless of the color of the belt you wear. It is the training and new skills that you are after anyway. So roll with it and have fun. Besides there are lessons that can be learned just from following the instructors wishes on this when it is something you may feel should be done another way... Think of it as Character building.

 

[MBuzzy]

I recently ran into someone who simply refused to discuss his previous training. His feeling is basically that he has no experience in the system we were talking about and previous experience didn't matter. Seems to me that one answer - if you are concerned about it - is "I have some experience" and just stop there. There is no need to share more unless you are specifically pressed for it. I think most would be content if you simply say that you feel uncomfortable discussing your previous experience and rank.

And if you were highly ranked in another system....it will show.

 

[Brother John]

Two ways to look at it:
#1: FIRST and foremost.............your new instructor asks you to wear a rank while training with him, then that's what you do.
(Pretty Simple)
#2: I'd personally want you to wear the Black Belt IF it was in a martial art that was related to or very similar to the one that I teach. IF, however, your art that you hold a black belt in were...say......Tae Kwan Do and you wanted to study Jujutsu with me.....yeah..............you'd start at white.

In the end though, #1 is the RULE, as I see it.

Your Brother
John

 

[Shotochem]

I switched to Kempo from Shotokan and happily wore a whitebelt. I would not have it any other way. I did not know anything about the system, its concepts and philosophies. To represent myself as anything other than a beginner in my new style would make me no better than the nearest MCDojo.

Yes, I have been going through the ranks much quicker than my other dojomates. Whenever I see them getting frustrated at not getting something after I pick thing up so quickly, I quickly encourage them and remind them that I have trained before and have been in the same place they are now. I have the complete respect of the senior ranks and I am allowed to train in the advanced level classes. We all learn with each other and from each other there are no ego problems in our all adult classes.
-Marc-

 

[fnorfurfoot]

I recently ran into someone who simply refused to discuss his previous training. His feeling is basically that he has no experience in the system we were talking about and previous experience didn't matter. Seems to me that one answer - if you are concerned about it - is "I have some experience" and just stop there. There is no need to share more unless you are specifically pressed for it. I think most would be content if you simply say that you feel uncomfortable discussing your previous experience and rank.

If it was at any other school, I probably would have gone this route. The problem here is that I have been associated with this group for over 5 years. I have gone to seminars and every year I bring my students to their tournaments. There is now way I could have hidden my rank from them.

 

[fnorfurfoot]

I choose to recognize people who have previous training by giving them a belt that has a black stripe running the length of the belt. White w/black stripe, yellow w/black stripe, etc. This is the indicator that serves several purposes. These people generally pick up things very quickly and for the other new people that start at the same time as the ones with previous training, seeing their meteoric progress comparitively speaking sometimes has a detrimental effect. When they are explained that the black stripe means black belt from another style, the pressure goes away and they refocus on their training like they're supposed to.

I like this idea and will probably use it whenever the situation becomes reversed.

 

[14 Kempo]

OK, I have to chime in again ...

I truly believe in starting again at white, I like it, and I really like the idea of a black stripe running the length of the belt, that's cool ... in any case, it should be considered that a person with a previous ranking of BB is going to be different from a person off the street. Why? Cause of the previous training.
Send me into a TKD studio and I may not kick as well as they do, but I may give them all kinds of problems that they aren't used too. A person with previous training will have a really hard time not adapting thier previously learned techniques when the gloves are on, I don't care what style it is. The instructor and other students need to know that thier is previous experience, and advanced experience at that. How it is done is up to the individual school. But as I've seen here in at least one post, refusing to talk about it? I may end up sending that person back to the street. It needs to be known, if for no other reason than the safety of the other students.

OK, that's enough for now ...

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

An instructor is showing disrepect for his students' many years of hard work when someone comes in off the street and wears a Black Belt.

Now, if the alien Black Belt comes from another style, wears the uniform and patches of the other style, making it clear that he is representing himself as a Black Belt in the other style, then you can avoid the disrespect to your students of enabling him to wear his rank.

Every style is like a language. You can get a PhD in English. That does not entitle you to walk around the French class posing as a PhD in the French language.

Bottom-line is that a Black Belt in one style does not entitle you to wear a Black Belt in another.

 

[Marginal]

Sorry, maybe it's just me, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, but how many ways can there be to throw a front punch, or a front ball kick effectively? Anyone, please list them ... enlighten me.

One or several depending on your point of view.

 

[jks9199]

Why concentrate on the differences? For the most part, I've found people who nit-pick differences in similar techniques are missing the point. It doesn't matter if your foot is pointing "here" or over "there", so long as the end result is the other person getting hurt.

It's a testament to just how flexible these things are that there are dozens of different ways to kick and punch, all of them being effective. A punch from a boxer is going to look very different to a punch from a karateka, or a muay thai fighter, or a TKD fighter. They'll look different, but they'll all be the same in their intent, they'll be similar in their execution, and they'll be nearly identical in their results.

It doesn't matter if you kick or punch exactly the same way as your new style does. So long as you kick or punch well.

Now, I know there are some people out there who, for whatever reason, want to learn how a particular style does something simply for the sake of learning it. In those cases, it is beneficial to forget everything you have previously learned. Myself, I am more interested in learning the best way for me to do things, and if that means I am throwing boxing punches and BJJ takedowns in a TKD class, then that is what will happen...

There can be very important differences in the way one style throws a punch versus the way another style does; the mechanics may feed different options or set up different follow ups. I agree that there are only so many ways to throw a punch, kick, etc. -- but I disagree that the differences are unimportant when learning a particular style. You cant write a sentence in English using the Cyrillic alphabet or Norse runes; if you're learning Tae Kwon Do, you have to learn their approach to throwing a punch, not use the mechanics you learned in Shaolin Kung Fu or boxing.

 

[jks9199]

With regard to the original question...

If I start training in a new style -- I'll wear a white belt. And I'll do things there, in their way. Day one won't be "wipe the floor with the newbie showing me the basics" because I don't know their basics; I'll be trying to use their basics. After all, I'm in their house, not mine.

Our chief instructor frequently used white "humility belts" made of simple rope in group trainings as a reminder to all of us why we were there, and the attitude we should have. I've used the same principal in some of my own teaching since.

 

[blackxpress]

The school where I used to train closed down. 4 of us, including our Sensei, joined a dojo of a different style. Our sensei asked to start out as a white belt but the new sensei refused his request. Although he has a lot to learn in making the transition he is still a black belt and sensei insists he receive the proper respect. The other night I was watching my old sensei running kata. The kata was new to him but I noticed that he ran it better than the other students even though most of them were very familiar with it. His moves were sharper and more powerful than theirs and his focus was awesome. New material comes to him very quickly. He's a black belt for a reason.

 

[Marginal]

There can be very important differences in the way one style throws a punch versus the way another style does; the mechanics may feed different options or set up different follow ups. I agree that there are only so many ways to throw a punch, kick, etc. -- but I disagree that the differences are unimportant when learning a particular style. You cant write a sentence in English using the Cyrillic alphabet or Norse runes; if you're learning Tae Kwon Do, you have to learn their approach to throwing a punch, not use the mechanics you learned in Shaolin Kung Fu or boxing.

Well, moving between one striking style to the next is more like moving from writing technical reports to grant writing. You're still using the same language, mostly the same grammar, the same punctuation. The focus has shifted somewhat, and possibly the style guidelines. That's not the same thing as being asked to write a love poem in Spanish at all.

 

[crushing]

I just started studying a new style of MA this week and the instructor told me to wear my black belt to the classes. I was expecting to start as a white belt and was kind of hoping that I would. The same thing happened when I started studying GoJu. The instructor told me that nobody could take away what I have already earned so he had me wear my black belt to his classes. When I was promoted in his style, I would recieve a colored chevron that I had to sew onto the sleeve of my gi.

[...]

I've seen so many posts in this thread saying that fnorfurfoot should start out as a white belt in the new art.

I take the highlighted sentence in red in the quoted section above to mean the fnorfurfoot is starting out as a white belt in the new art.

 

[green meanie]

I've seen so many posts in this thread saying that fnorfurfoot should start out as a white belt in the new art.

I take the highlighted sentence in red in the quoted section above to mean the fnorfurfoot is starting out as a white belt in the new art.

It doesn't look that way to me. Right above what you highlighted he says, "The instructor told me that nobody could take away what I have already earned so he had me wear my black belt to his classes." In what you highlighted he says, "When I was promoted in his style, I would receive a colored chevron that I had to sew onto the sleeve of my gi." I'm taking that to mean that he's wearing his black belt and sewing yellow - orange - green - etc. chevrons onto the sleeve of his gi to show where he is in the new curriculum.

:asian: