Shadow Boxing vs Kata fallacy argument.

[Gerry Seymour]

So get rid of the middle man and throw the katas out of there! It's amazing, the lengths they go to justify keeping these old relics.

You assume everyone wants the same approach you want. That's clearly not the case. Some folks like kata for the practice it is (rather than getting wound up in what it is not). Why does that bother you so much?

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you say that the "too much" form training may "delay" a person's sparring training, I'll agree with you there.

One of my Chinese wrestling students wants to learn the long fist system from me. I asked him how much training time will he put in. After he told me that he has a full time job, wife and kid, and mortgage payment. I told him that he may not have enough training time to learn the "complete" long fist system.

In the long fist system, there are 10 open hands forms that one needs to learn.

Here are those 10 open hand forms (one can find all these forms online - I love the internet age).

1. 10 roads Tantui.

2. Lien Bu Chuan.

3. Gong Li Chuan.

4. 1st road Mai Fu Chuan.

5. 2nd road Mai Fu Chuan.

Lots of memory needed lol. I've done Gong Li Chuan but only following the person in front. I didn't spend any effort to try to remember it. We used to do it in the schools to make our punches longer and to improve flexibility.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you didn't want it to be a general discussion, perhaps "General Martial Arts" was the wrong sub-forum to post in.

This just remind me when I was in a Judo forum.

A: You may try .....
B: You are not even a Judo guy. Nobody cares about your opinion. Why are you still handing around here.

I tuck my tail between my back legs, took off, and left that forum with shame.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This just remind me when I was in a Judo forum.

A: You may try .....
B: You are not even a Judo guy. Nobody cares about your opinion. Why are you still handing around here.

I tuck my tail between my back legs, took off, and left that forum with shame.

Thankfully, the Wing Chun guys around here don't take that attitude when I butt in on their forum.

 

[Graywalker]

Some good stuff here. But just to address the new stuff argument, BJJ is as old as most karate styles, and modern MMA is over 25 years old, and goes back further if you look at shoot fighting and similar things in Asia.

This isn’t about what’s new or not. I’ve also seen quite a few karate schools close over the years. Being a successful business person isn’t always a reliable indicator of martial skill or the quality of the product.

I was speaking from own personal knowledge concerning these things and is why I said or 'some unheard of style'...

I was making the point that zealots, tend to bark the same putdowns concerning karate, whether they are new or old arts, or new or old methods of training and despite the repeat insults, Karate is still popular, and you are seeing people taking a renewed interest in it.

It wasn't my intention to make less of these arts that you mentioned, yet to show that karate last, changes and competes with other systems very well.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I only trained in two Karate systems, one of them being Shotokan (I've don't know what the other was, but I suspect it was American Karate). Neither instructor used kata in any of the classes I attended. Clearly your statement ("It is the essential feature of their systems.") isn't as universal as it seems.

Same. One of my kenpo systems was directly okinawan kenpo (different from the american kenpo lineage, basically okinawan karate), and they didn't teach forms. Also I've done various TMA (various ken/mpo, kung fu, tai chi and FMA) and combat sports (boxing, kickboxing, BJJ, sambo, judo) but I'm still perfectly happy with my current TMA. But based on his previous reaction to experience that contradicts his current beliefs, it's irrelevant. All of that doesn't count because it doesn't agree with his statements.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Training a TMA the way folks train MMA will definitely make one’s TMA better. No doubt in my mind.

Yup. But people do actually train TMA in just that way.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Some good stuff here. But just to address the new stuff argument, BJJ is as old as most karate styles, and modern MMA is over 25 years old, and goes back further if you look at shoot fighting and similar things in Asia.

This isn’t about what’s new or not. I’ve also seen quite a few karate schools close over the years. Being a successful business person isn’t always a reliable indicator of martial skill or the quality of the product.

Outlast was the wrong term, but I think the point wasn't so much that those styles won't last, so much as that karate will. And yeah business isn't an indicator of quality, but at some point, even if they become hugely successful, and make the founder/CEO rich, they'll crash at some point if the quality isn't there. That's true of just about any product.

 

[Graywalker]

I think that Acronym, should understand that some Karate schools, base their training around the ability to fight.

Not all schools went the route of early days point tournament, not that it is bad, but training changed and a lot of the combat side, was left out. Karate has never been, just about Kata. There are some schools that tend to be focused more, on the fighting aspects.

We in our school, still practice the same basic bunkai, as we did in the early 80's. There are 13 kata to black belt and about 75 bunkai to learn. That is just the base, but there are 3 ways that they are taught. The last way, is sparring semi full contact, only using specific bunkai from a specified Kata. That is simply kata sparring, just one of ways we spar. Really, from these basic bunkai, the student is encouraged to build off of the basic patterns. But they must know them individually and in the basic form, and use them individually, before combining anything.

This is how, I learned it in the 80's and still teach, but that is different from the Free sparring that we do. That, focuses on distance, basic kicks, strikes, knees, and really just about anything needed for a well rounded fighter. Including takedowns and grappling. Yes grappling on the ground, quite a few styles have a ground game, another one where the basics haven't changed much since the 80's, but we always grow and seek new methods of training.

This is a small part of the Karate I trained in the 80's, and a small part in how I still train and teach till this day.

But, I am a Toyama Kanken line, and although being a Karate-ka, he traveled to different places and learned various arts and he incorparated many different concepts into his personal system. And, encouraged it in his students as well. I posted a picture of an old article from 1949 in an earlier thread where Toyama described karate as a mixture of Jujitsu, boxing, fencing and wrestling. It shows, a well rounded Karate method. Again, from 1949...

In his words "Karate is whatever you make it".

Karate is just a word a basic description. It of itself, is not one method set in stone. Its an individual method that grows however you individually choose.

Honestly, it seems as if a lot of people that walked away from karate, just wanted to learn how to damage an opponent, instead of controlling the opponent. Although there is an art to destruction, the true art is in control.

Just a little history of the Karate I learned 30yrs ago and continue to learn, and how some of us dug in and hung in there, and will be here 20yrs from now.

 

[Steve]

Yup. But people do actually train TMA in just that way.

And those folks who do, do well. And they tend to be held up by those who don't as proof validating all tma. The key is how one trains more than what one trains. The culture of some styles makes them more effective based on how they are commonly trained, not whether they are old or not. Said differently, age doesn't make a style TMA; rather, how it is trained, which is in contrast to how a style like bjj or MMA trains.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Outlast was the wrong term, but I think the point wasn't so much that those styles won't last, so much as that karate will. And yeah business isn't an indicator of quality, but at some point, even if they become hugely successful, and make the founder/CEO rich, they'll crash at some point if the quality isn't there. That's true of just about any product.

While true, it depends how the consumers define “quality” - what they are looking for.

 

[Buka]

I was friendly with a lot of dojos, we helped each other out with anything we could. Anytime a new place opened in the surrounding towns I'd bring them a new heavy bag and some kicking shields as a house warming gift. Not a big deal as I was a distributor for all the equipment companies so I got everything wholesale.

Our students and theirs were always welcome in each other's dojos. Any time myself or one of our guys went to their places for a class they were always thoughtful enough not to practice Kata in that class because they knew we didn't practice Kata. A class move on their part.

But I really don't remember any badmouthing. Except from me, as there are some charlatans that I have personal animosities towards and always will. And, I must admit, I have made fun of Monkey Style Kung Fu a few times, but only to friends in personal conversation. Can't really wrap my mind around seeing Monkey style and thinking "I really want to do that." Close minded of me, I know, but what can I say?

 

[Steve]

While true, it depends how the consumers define “quality” - what they are looking for.

Cool outfits and a plucky attitude.

 

[geezer]

Thankfully, the Wing Chun guys around here don't take that attitude when I butt in on their forum.

No. We don't. But then we are better than your typical Wing Chun people.

....and modest too!

 

[drop bear]

Yup. But people do actually train TMA in just that way.

I know some guys who do.

 

[drop bear]

Outlast was the wrong term, but I think the point wasn't so much that those styles won't last, so much as that karate will. And yeah business isn't an indicator of quality, but at some point, even if they become hugely successful, and make the founder/CEO rich, they'll crash at some point if the quality isn't there. That's true of just about any product.

Not really.

Astrology, crystal healing, aikido. All still successful businesses.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

age doesn't make a style TMA; rather, how it is trained, which is in contrast to how a style like bjj or MMA trains.

The following issue bother me big time.

- WC has 3 open hand forms and 2 weapon forms.
- Long fist has 10 open hand forms and 8 weapon forms.

When TMA guys are still training in form, BJJ and MMA guys already wrestle and fight in the ring. Of course we need to develop a strong foundation. But how much foundation is enough? We can't stay in elementary school forever and refuse to move to high school.

What's the solution for TMA?

 

[Graywalker]

The following issue bother me big time.

- WC has 3 open hand forms and 2 weapon forms.
- Long fist has 10 open hand forms and 8 weapon forms.

When TMA guys are still training in form, BJJ and MMA guys already wrestle and fight in the ring. Of course we need to develop a strong foundation. But how much foundation is enough? We can't stay in elementary school forever and refuse to move to high school.

What's the solution for TMA?

I am a little confused, is MMA a style or a training method.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I am a little confused, is MMA a style or a training method.

It doesn't matter whether MMA is a style or training method.

MMA, boxing, MT, BJJ have no form training. They can spend all their training time in the ring or on the mat.

A MMA guy may not be able to hold his side kick in the air for 30 seconds like a TKD guy can. But is that kind of foundation training truly that important?

 

[Flying Crane]

The following issue bother me big time.

- WC has 3 open hand forms and 2 weapon forms.
- Long fist has 10 open hand forms and 8 weapon forms.

When TMA guys are still training in form, BJJ and MMA guys already wrestle and fight in the ring. Of course we need to develop a strong foundation. But how much foundation is enough? We can't stay in elementary school forever and refuse to move to high school.

What's the solution for TMA?

Why is this a problem? The solution is obvious: begin interactive drills and progress to some form of beneficial sparring whenever you feel it is appropriate. Please don’t tell me you would not begin those things until after you have taught them all of the forms?? Why in the world would you think they need to do nothing but forms?