Shadow Boxing vs Kata fallacy argument.

[Acronym]

I have a challenge. How many people did actual combat systems - Boxing, Kickboxing, Judo, BJJ, and TMA, and found TMA superior? They invaribly see the light when introduced to real combat systems and we rarely hear Boxers, Kickboxers wanting their money back lol..

 

[Headhunter]

I have a challenge. How many people did actual combat systems - Boxing, Kickboxing, Judo, BJJ, and TMA, and found TMA superior? They invaribly see the light when introduced to real combat systems and we rarely hear Boxers, Kickboxers wanting their money back lol..

Me

 

[Acronym]

This forums seems to be a refugee for kung fu practitioners getting battered around in regular, non friendly forums. 99% of the USER replies seems to be Kung Fu and not Karate practitioners in here replying to a thread about kata and Japanese based systems. And users in general seems to do american martial arts and or kung fu, instead of more mainstream stuff like Karate, TaeKwondo

What gives?

 

[Flying Crane]

This forums seems to be a refugee for kung fu practitioners getting battered around in regular, non friendly forums. 99% of the USER replies seems to be Kung Fu and not Karate practitioners in here replying to a thread about kata and Japanese based systems. And users in general seems to do american martial arts and or kung fu, instead of more mainstream stuff like Karate, TaeKwondo

What gives?

Once again, you are wrong.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So you haven't done Karate then. I will not do the homework for you. You can google one step and two step-sparring and then tell me whether this looks like advanced practise.

Itosu Anko said "advanced practitioners move freely" and that Katas are not a direct representation of fighting.

I looked it up and found this and I agree with everything that he says. Especially when he talks about the purpose of it, the errors that people make, and the fact that you still have to train beyond the One step sparring in order to learn how to actual do it. He states that it shows the student the options of attacks that they may be able to do. It follows closely to my shadow boxing function. After A then what? One step and two step sparring helps you to identify what may come next after a strike or a block. By training your eyes what to look for, in a controlled exercise like this, it makes it easier for your brain to process the options that may appear. This also will make the brain process things faster in a real fighting has it builds familiarity of what's open. This means you aren't trying to search for possible opens, because you are already familiar with where they might be.

 

[Acronym]

Once again, you are wrong.

Says a kung fu practitioner, with a kung fu USER name

 

[Headhunter]

This forums seems to be a refugee for kung fu practitioners getting battered around in regular, non friendly forums. 99% of the USER replies seems to be Kung Fu and not Karate practitioners in here replying to a thread about kata and Japanese based systems. And users in general seems to do american martial arts and or kung fu, instead of more mainstream stuff like Karate, TaeKwondo

What gives?

Wrong yet again

 

[Acronym]

I looked it up and found this and I agree with everything that he says. Especially when he talks about the purpose of it, the errors that people make, and the fact that you still have to train beyond the One step sparring in order to learn how to actual do it. He states that it shows the student the options of attacks that they may be able to do. It follows closely to my shadow boxing function. After A then what? One step and two step sparring helps you to identify what may come next after a strike or a block. By training your eyes what to look for, in a controlled exercise like this, it makes it easier for your brain to process the options that may appear. This also will make the brain process things faster in a real fighting has it builds familiarity of what's open. This means you aren't trying to search for possible opens, because you are already familiar with where they might be.

So get rid of the middle man and throw the katas out of there! It's amazing, the lengths they go to justify keeping these old relics.

 

[Headhunter]

So get rid of the middle man and throw the katas out of there! It's amazing, the lengths they go to justify keeping these old relics.

Why should they? You think you can do better go make your own style and tell us how you get on grandmaster

 

[JowGaWolf]

The perspective of the CMA crowd is definitely appropriate.

I'm not saying that we are know-it-alls but CMA practitioners go over hundreds of movements so it's easier to for us to see similarities in other systems. Just from the fact. It's not unusual for a CMA beginner form to have more than 100 movements and more than 10 techniques. Before you even get to the middle section of the form. In my Jow Ga beginner form the first 6 sections has more than 20 unique techniques. There's about 24 sections all together.

Things like that are not unique to Jow Ga. We can look at Tai Chi and see the same thing. It doesn't make us experts in someone else's system, but we often have a familiarity that makes it easier for use to grasp concepts and techniques from other systems.

But one would have to Train in Martial arts to actually see how much is going on. Kung fu has even been criticized for doing too much.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So get rid of the middle man and throw the katas out of there! It's amazing, the lengths they go to justify keeping these old relics.

The kata's still have value, just not in the way that you keep trying to apply value to it.

 

[geezer]

There are Chinese Kata in Japanese systems too. Tang Soo Do has Kata directly lifted from Kung Fu and not just Shotokan.

Tang Soo Do is Korean with Chinese influence. (Tang Soo = China Hand). For somebody trying to limit the discussion strictly to kata in Okinawan karate, you seem to be, literally, all over the place ... Okinawa, Japan, Korea...

So what are you really on about? If you don't think formal kata (or forms) is an efficient training method for fighting, that's a fair position and a lot of folks might agree. Others might not. But you seem to be more interested in just being contrary.

...or am I missing something?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have a challenge. How many people did actual combat systems - Boxing, Kickboxing, Judo, BJJ, and TMA, and found TMA superior? They invaribly see the light when introduced to real combat systems and we rarely hear Boxers, Kickboxers wanting their money back lol..

The shadow boxing jab, cross is no difference from the combo training of:

- roundhouse kick, side kick,
- elbow lock, shoulder lock,
- hip throw, single leg,
- ...

The mind set is identical among all those training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have a challenge. How many people did actual combat systems - Boxing, Kickboxing, Judo, BJJ, and TMA, and found TMA superior?

My Answer. Show me one technique in MMA that can't be found in a TMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This discussion reminds me of how the Martial Arts Tutor guy used to be. Ironically after he started taking MMA classes he began to have a higher appreciation and a better understanding of TMA systems

 

[Flying Crane]

Says a kung fu practitioner, with a kung fu USER name

I have no idea what you are going on about.

 

[Flying Crane]

So get rid of the middle man and throw the katas out of there! It's amazing, the lengths they go to justify keeping these old relics.

Why? Just because you aren’t up to it, does not mean it doesn’t work for others.

Go do your own thing. Nobody cares what you do.

 

[Headhunter]

Why? Just because you aren’t up to it, does not mean it doesn’t work for others.

Go do your own thing. Nobody cares what you do.

No Don’t be silly...every martial arts instructor on earth should change how they teach just to suit him

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This forums seems to be a refugee for kung fu practitioners getting battered around in regular, non friendly forums. 99% of the USER replies seems to be Kung Fu and not Karate practitioners in here replying to a thread about kata and Japanese based systems. And users in general seems to do american martial arts and or kung fu, instead of more mainstream stuff like Karate, TaeKwondo

What gives?

Plenty of people here do karate and taekwondo. Most of them replied to you earlier on, then gave up when you didn't want to engage in an actual discussion with them and instead just continued to bash their systems. I'm guessing the CMA guys on here either didn't see those first few (since they actually were karate/tkd/boxing based), or just didn't care as much so they're the only ones still engaging with you.

 

[Graywalker]

This forums seems to be a refugee for kung fu practitioners getting battered around in regular, non friendly forums. 99% of the USER replies seems to be Kung Fu and not Karate practitioners in here replying to a thread about kata and Japanese based systems. And users in general seems to do american martial arts and or kung fu, instead of more mainstream stuff like Karate, TaeKwondo

What gives?

I would, as a long time practitioner of Karate, like to answer this question....

'and not Karate practitioners in here replying to a thread about kata and Japanese based systems.'

Because we have heard it all before, over the last 30 to 40 years. Every 5yrs, every decade, something new pops up, some unheard style, some new method. And, zealots of these 'better than Karate' start squawking, the exact same regurgitated nonsense about Karate and how it sucks. And open gyms, schools, and tend to denounce and spew the same tired gospel, near those sucky karate schools.

Some even have the balls, to walk into Dojo's and prove it sucks. Same nonsense, same children.

But, as time goes on, the school of bad****ry, those awesome gyms, usually close within 5yrs.

Point in case, the Dojo I started in, at 14yrs old is still open, I am 51years old. I seen at least two MMA schools open and close within 3-5yrs. The Dojo is still there, it is still putting out longterm students and high quality people. Heck, the town I currently live in, has a school that has been there 25yrs and yup, gyms opened there as well...not now but yeah, you know, karate sucks.

In simple words

1) There is nothing to defend...karate outlast.
2) This one might shock you...you are not the first to spew this nonsense. We have heard it before and we will hear it again...
3) which leads me to third...we are still here, and to stay.

In the end, its our time to waste, and we love wasting time.