Shadow Boxing vs Kata fallacy argument.

[JowGaWolf]

There is nothing stopping your attacker also grabbing a stick. Negating your martial arts.

This is true, but having a stick does not guarantee that it will be useful for him. In truth, it may make his situation worse because to do so would take him completely out of the skill sets that he does know, which would then give me an even bigger adavantage.

Here's an example. If you know how to use this and I don't, then you'll have a bigger advantage if I pick this up this up to try you with it. The staff and sticks are like that as well.

If I don't know how to use a stick, then I could be making things worse for myself if I bring one to a fight. In that scenario you could realistically take it from me and use my own weapon to beat me. The video below shows this reality where 2 guys who clearly don't know how to stick fight pick up a bat and what looks to be a cut of wood with corners. Anyone that knows how to fight a stick would just get the right stick to do the job. The objects would never be first choice.

But since I do have some training fighting with a staff, the person who is picking up the stick would have to have equal or greater skills to have an advantage of having a stick. There is always luck and that counts too. But going back to a weapon that I don't know how to use. I would be better off walking away, unless I understood enough about the mechanics of how the weapon moves and how you hold on to it so I can disarm you. If I didn't know who to do that then I wouldn't engage. If you had a staff /stick and I could tell you didn't know how to use it, then I might take a chance to disarm you. If a person knows how to use a staff and I can clearly see that, then I'm walking away. A person that knows how to really use a staff is going to do a lot of tricky stuff like jab the end of that staff in my face.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Your students need to be practicing on their own time, in addition to the time spent with you. Everybody needs to do this.

If your student does this, you can teach him all of the forms for Longfist, even if you only see him 8 hours a month. Application always takes longer, but if he just wants to learn the forms and is willing to work more gradually on application, I see no reason why it cannot be done.

But he needs to take responsibility for working on and developing what you teach him.

Once I taught a Taiji class for the Chinese community. I intend to finish the 108 moves long Taiji form within 3 months. We met once a week, 2 house a class. After 3 weeks, I found out that students still could not remember the initial 12 moves.

A: Do you people train at home?
B: No! We don't.
A: ...

There is nothing that a teacher can do if students don't want to train at home.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There is nothing stopping your attacker also grabbing a stick. Negating your martial arts.

One more thing about this in terms of grabbing my staff and taking it. That would depend on how the person is holding a staff. If they hold it in the middle then that may prove to be more difficult that it seems. If they swing it like a bat then you can simply rush in between the gaps. If they hold it like a spear then just walk away.

This is how most people swing a large stick. You will be fine if they swing it like this. Take advantage of the gaps, don't get hit on the head. This is a real fight

Martial artists from CMA systems don't swing staff or sticks like this. In the video below you can see what type of issues are cause by swing sticks like that.

Japanese bo staff, chinese staff techniques avoid the big overhead baseball bat swings, because it takes a long reload time and not to mention the gap that it creates. You'll see indian martial arts use the big swings, but I think it's for show and entertainment. Watch the lady use the staff here and you'll see the same concept of not bringing that staff / stick way back as if you are swinging a baseball bat.

 

[drop bear]

This is true, but having a stick does not guarantee that it will be useful for him. In truth, it may make his situation worse because to do so would take him completely out of the skill sets that he does know, which would then give me an even bigger adavantage.

Here's an example. If you know how to use this and I don't, then you'll have a bigger advantage if I pick this up this up to try you with it. The staff and sticks are like that as well.

If I don't know how to use a stick, then I could be making things worse for myself if I bring one to a fight. In that scenario you could realistically take it from me and use my own weapon to beat me. The video below shows this reality where 2 guys who clearly don't know how to stick fight pick up a bat and what looks to be a cut of wood with corners. Anyone that knows how to fight a stick would just get the right stick to do the job. The objects would never be first choice.

But since I do have some training fighting with a staff, the person who is picking up the stick would have to have equal or greater skills to have an advantage of having a stick. There is always luck and that counts too. But going back to a weapon that I don't know how to use. I would be better off walking away, unless I understood enough about the mechanics of how the weapon moves and how you hold on to it so I can disarm you. If I didn't know who to do that then I wouldn't engage. If you had a staff /stick and I could tell you didn't know how to use it, then I might take a chance to disarm you. If a person knows how to use a staff and I can clearly see that, then I'm walking away. A person that knows how to really use a staff is going to do a lot of tricky stuff like jab the end of that staff in my face.

But the purpose of the weapon in the argument is because your unarmed is junk. Otherwise you would just manhandle the guy head to head.

That is why the argument is created in the first place. You can't beat a whatever style. So you need an advantage.

So why is your weapon skills not junk as well?

It is the celestial teapot.

A theoretical argument with no evidence can constantly shift the goal posts to defend its position.

And that is why a theoretical argument without evidence is discounted Exept in theology. Where it gets treated as some sort of point.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Once I taught a Taiji class for the Chinese community. I intend to finish the 108 moves long Taiji form within 3 months. We met once a week, 2 house a class. After 3 weeks, I found out that students still could not remember the initial 12 moves.

A: Do you people train at home?
B: No! We don't.
A: ...

There is nothing that a teacher can do if students don't want to train at home.

I agree 100% with this. Unfortunately we are social creatures and that carries over into training as well, where training as a group feels better and training by yourself is lonely. This is still true for me and my training. The only difference is that I'm not lonely once my focus kicks in. When I get to that point everything else fades away. It's just me and kung fu and no other thoughts. Which is why my wife didn't like coming with me on my Sunday Training sessions. I could stay their forever. She would always say. "I have other important things to do like cook dinner and get our son ready for school" the next day. lol. She was right.

I've met very few students who can actually train on their own in this way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But the purpose of the weapon in the argument is because your unarmed is junk. Otherwise you would just manhandle the guy head to head.

The purpose of my argument is to win. Even if I thought I could beat you with my fist, I would still hit you with the staff. Because that's the easier win.

Just like if you had a gun and I came attacking you with my fist. You will throw away your gun to fight me fist vs fist? Or will you use your gun?

Say we get into an unarmed fight. You're boxing skills are better than mine, but my kicking and sweeping skills are good enough to make it more difficult for you to use your boxing skills, so I use my kicking skills which allows me to win the fight. After 2 minutes I win the fight, by sweeping you. You fall from the sweep and hit your head on the ground. You try to get up while dazed, I kick you in the face and knock you out. Here are the facts.
1. You get to brag about how good your punching skills are compared to my crappy punches.
2. I get to brag about how I won.
3. Your better punching skills didn't matter when the fighting was over. You still lost.

Everything in this is within my capability. I don't know if a fight between me in you would turn out like that, but I do know that I have the ability and skill set to sweep someone and to kick someone and you have seen videos of this. So for me to think this way isn't far fetch.

I can also use professional fighters to show the same thing. The kick boxer could have used boxing skills to fight the boxer, but kicking was the easier win. You can say that the kick boxer's punching skills were trash. It doesn't matter, he used kicking to win.

 

[drop bear]

One more thing about this in terms of grabbing my staff and taking it. That would depend on how the person is holding a staff. If they hold it in the middle then that may prove to be more difficult that it seems. If they swing it like a bat then you can simply rush in between the gaps. If they hold it like a spear then just walk away.

This is how most people swing a large stick. You will be fine if they swing it like this. Take advantage of the gaps, don't get hit on the head. This is a real fight

Martial artists from CMA systems don't swing staff or sticks like this. In the video below you can see what type of issues are cause by swing sticks like that.

Japanese bo staff, chinese staff techniques avoid the big overhead baseball bat swings, because it takes a long reload time and not to mention the gap that it creates. You'll see indian martial arts use the big swings, but I think it's for show and entertainment. Watch the lady use the staff here and you'll see the same concept of not bringing that staff / stick way back as if you are swinging a baseball bat.

Not really. You would have to show evidence of some sort of competency in stick fighting to make the argument you have some sort of competency in stick fighting.

You can't just say you do a thing. This is a massive misconception within martial arts and especially self defense.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Only 8 hours every month is a huge challenge.

In that 8 hours, I can teach my student a form. I can also help him to grow a tree. For example, a tree with 14 branches from the same root of "under hook leg spring". I would rather help my student to grow a tree than to lean a form.

The following 14 moves can be set up by the same move - under hook leg spring 胯崩

1. Leg break
2. Shin bite
3. Tie
4. Scoop
5. Out hook
6. Front cut
7. Foot sweep
8. Knee seize
9. Double legs
10. Reverse knee down leg seize 回马勺
11. Reverse knee seize 倒推船
12. Reverse knee seize, inner hook
13. Shoulder spin 叉闪
14. Shoulder pull 叉撤

Example of leg spring, Tie combo.

Example of leg spring, shoulder spin combo:

 

[drop bear]

The purpose of my argument is to win. Even if I thought I could beat you with my fist, I would still hit you with the staff. Because that's the easier win.

Just like if you had a gun and I came attacking you with my fist. You will throw away your gun to fight me fist vs fist? Or will you use your gun?

That's fine but you are still arguing from your pool of infinite fantasy.

And I would use my trained SAS team that just happens to be there at the time.

 

[Flying Crane]

Once I taught a Taiji class for the Chinese community. I intend to finish the 108 moves long Taiji form within 3 months. We met once a week, 2 house a class. After 3 weeks, I found out that students still could not remember the initial 12 moves.

A: Do you people train at home?
B: No! We don't.
A: ...

There is nothing that a teacher can do if students don't want to train at home.

Sure, I understand that problem but the truth of the matter is, if your current students who meet with you 8 hours a month are not practicing on their own, then they are also failing in their training. Really, people need to be responsible for their own training, I cannot emphasize that enough, it is the plain truth. Otherwise, they will reach a low/mediocre level of skill and will never move beyond that. They will reach a point where they cannot remember new stuff because they never practice, and your sessions together cannot cover everything.

If your student who wants to learn Longfist is willing to embrace that responsibility, then he can do it. So give him a chance, but have a straight-talking discussion with him about what it will take. If he fails to practice and cannot remember what you did last week, and cannot show improvement, then he gets nothing new until he does. Give him six months to convince you. After that, if he is not stepping up, well the deal is off.

With my previous Sifu, before I was able to get further instruction in White crane with my current Sifu, he taught me mostly through private lessons. His main class was Taiji, which I participated in, but I wanted other stuff. So he taught me White Crane and Longfist and other Taiji stuff that he wasn’t teaching in regular class, and over the years I learned a lot of forms from him. But it was because I practiced a lot, outside of class. Granted, my application was not so great because the emphasis was on learning these forms, but like I said, that is a trade that can be made. But I’ve done it, I know it can be done, I am often mystified when people cannot do it. It’s just a willingness to put in the hard work. That is what kung fu means, after all.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can't beat a whatever style. So you need an advantage.

That's the whole point. To have an advantage. Would you fight me in competitive fight if you didn't think you had an advantage that you could use to win?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Old Chinese saying said, 穷文富武 Scholar is for the poor. MA is for the rich.

One needs time and money to train MA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So why is your weapon skills not junk as well?

My weapons skills are junk compared to someone who knows how to use it better than I do. But they are golden compared to someone who has none. The staff is something that I train which is why you never hear me talk about knife fighting.

If you want me to talk about punching skills then let it be known that we are not talking about the whole of Kung Fu. We are talking about one aspect and my ability to punch.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's fine but you are still arguing from your pool of infinite fantasy.

How is it fantasy when I take walks with my staff?

I live in Georgia USA, and have seen many people walk around with guns and knives on their hip. That's not fantasy either. Here you are more likely to run into someone with a gun than a staff.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But the purpose of the weapon in the argument is because your unarmed is junk. Otherwise you would just manhandle the guy head to head.

That is why the argument is created in the first place. You can't beat a whatever style. So you need an advantage.

So why is your weapon skills not junk as well?

It is the celestial teapot.

A theoretical argument with no evidence can constantly shift the goal posts to defend its position.

And that is why a theoretical argument without evidence is discounted Exept in theology. Where it gets treated as some sort of point.

Here's the evidence. If you and I had a fight that only includes sweeping people, would you win?
If you and I had a fight that only includes using a staff could you beat me? I'm assuming you don't train staff.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here's the evidence. If you and I had a fight that only includes sweeping people, would you win?
If you and I had a fight that only includes using a staff could you beat me? I'm assuming you don't train staff.

Since I was a baseball pitcher in high school, I then switch to knife throwing after high school. I love to challenge people by throwing rocks at each other and see who will remain standing.

I think to dodge throwing rock (or throwing knife) is a must have MA skill. It's missing in most of the MA school training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not really. You would have to show evidence of some sort of competency in stick fighting to make the argument you have some sort of competency in stick fighting.

You can't just say you do a thing. This is a massive misconception within martial arts and especially self defense.

I almost posted that same Donga fight, but changed my mind. not enough clothing on. The video that you posted is a rights of passage fights. The fight is meant to cause harm but not the same harm that you would do to an enemy. They use this fight to help secure wives and to prove their man hood. Strikes to the face and poking with the sticks are not allowed. Even thought they are swinging hard with the sticks the sticks are flexible and bend significantly more. This is stick fighting that you can survive because it's ritual stick fighting.

But on to your point. I don't have to show evidence that I can hit someone with a staff. I would still have my Jow Ga skill sets even if I have never shown a Jow Ga video. The videos don't validate my Jow Ga skills. It just shows you what I already know I can do. If I can't do it, then I'm more happy to say that I can't. Just like I said that I can't knife fight.

You should know this much about me after the years we spent posting on here.
1. I don't say that I can do unless I can do it.
2. I don't have a problem with saying that I'm wrong. More than once, I've thanked people for correcting me on here.
3. I'm not so stuck on myself that I can't apologize.

I could sit here and waste time lying about stuff, but I don't because no one can learn from a lie, including me. I don't have video of me hitting someone with a staff because that stuff hurts. Anyone who has trained with a staff and has had their fingers smashed are always thankful that it the swing was not full force.

Anyone who has been hit in the head with a staff are equally as thankful that the swing was not full force.

People don't dress up like this because staffs don't hurt

 

[JowGaWolf]

Since I was a baseball pitcher in high school, I then switch to knife throwing after high school. I love to challenge people by throwing rocks at each other and see who will remain standing.

I think to dodge throwing rock (or throwing knife) is a must have MA skill. It's missing in most of the MA school training.

probably because throwing your only knife just gives your weapon to the enemy. In Jow Ga we say throwing a knife means you won't have anything to use on the other guy. So if you and you friend have a knife and I hit him, now you can attack me with your knife since I threw mine away. Also If I threw my knife at you and I miss then you can use my knife against me.

I do think dodging knifes are good but not so much throwing knives. In general knowing how to dodge is good and should be trained in martial arts. It's clear from the MMA vs kung Fu masters videos that it's needed lol.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

throwing your only knife just gives your weapon to the enemy.

Not if I have plenty of knives. I used to carry 3 throwing knives when I was young in Taiwan (fire arm was not allowed) when someone threatened to kill me. That guy belonged to a local gang. I was not. I was in a true self-defense mode.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not if I have plenty of knives. I used to carry 3 throwing knives when I was young in Taiwan (fire arm was not allowed) when someone threatened to kill me. That guy belonged to a local gang. I was not.

Let me find out you were a hitman in the old days lol. What did your throwing knives look like.