Shadow Boxing vs Kata fallacy argument.

[Flying Crane]

No Don’t be silly...every martial arts instructor on earth should change how they teach just to suit him

Oh of course! How silly of me. He is the chosen one, the enlightened one. I am ready now to drop everything I have done in the past and recognize the error of my ways. I am so fortunate that he came along to share his enlightenment with me. I could have wasted the rest of my life, wallowing in the muck and backwardness of forms practice. Now I understand, because of his Great Teaching, how near the chasm of the abyss I had strayed. Fortune has smiled upon me on this most auspicious day. I shall remember this day forever and shall marketh it upon my calendar as a day Most Holy of All Days and shall instill amongeth mine own students the Wonder and Marvels of the Most Holy Master, What’s-His-Name!

Jeezuz. Just...Jeezuz.

 

[Flying Crane]

Plenty of people here do karate and taekwondo. Most of them replied to you earlier on, then gave up when you didn't want to engage in an actual discussion with them and instead just continued to bash their systems. I'm guessing the CMA guys on here either didn't see those first few (since they actually were karate/tkd/boxing based), or just didn't care as much so they're the only ones still engaging with you.

Did see them.

Just bored at the moment. So, ya know, just needing entertainment.

 

[Acronym]

I would, as a long time practitioner of Karate, like to answer this question....

'and not Karate practitioners in here replying to a thread about kata and Japanese based systems.'

Because we have heard it all before, over the last 30 to 40 years. Every 5yrs, every decade, something new pops up, some unheard style, some new method. And, zealots of these 'better than Karate' start squawking, the exact same regurgitated nonsense about Karate and how it sucks. And open gyms, schools, and tend to denounce and spew the same tired gospel, near those sucky karate schools.

Some even have the balls, to walk into Dojo's and prove it sucks. Same nonsense, same children.

But, as time goes on, the school of bad****ry, those awesome gyms, usually close within 5yrs.

Point in case, the Dojo I started in, at 14yrs old is still open, I am 51years old. I seen at least two MMA schools open and close within 3-5yrs. The Dojo is still there, it is still putting out longterm students and high quality people. Heck, the town I currently live in, has a school that has been there 25yrs and yup, gyms opened there as well...not now but yeah, you know, karate sucks.

In simple words

1) There is nothing to defend...karate outlast.
2) This one might shock you...you are not the first to spew this nonsense. We have heard it before and we will hear it again...
3) which leads me to third...we are still here, and to stay.

In the end, its our time to waste, and we love wasting time.

And the makiwara? Is it still being used?

 

[Headhunter]

And the makiwara? Is it still being used?

Yes it is and it will continue to be so. Why do you care what other people do? You spend more time talking than you do training

 

[Graywalker]

And the makiwara? Is it still being used?

This shows that you are lacking in your knowledge concerning Karate, let me explain why...

You think its a stick in the ground wrapped in straw. You are correct and yes, I imagine some places use them.

But, there are hanging ones as well, aka punching bags. Do you think that modern practitioners, do not use what is currently available, material wise?

And, why would you even attack that, that is like insinuating that a free standing punching bag is useless.

 

[Headhunter]

This shows that you are lacking in your knowledge concerning Karate, let me explain why...

You think its a stick in the ground wrapped in straw. You are correct and yes, I imagine some places use them.

But, there are hanging ones as well, aka punching bags. Do you think that modern practitioners, do not use what is currently available, material wise?

And, why would you even attack that, that is like insinuating that a free standing punching bag is useless.

Lacking in knowledge this guy?....shocker in other breaking news water is wet

 

[Headhunter]

This shows that you are lacking in your knowledge concerning Karate, let me explain why...

You think its a stick in the ground wrapped in straw. You are correct and yes, I imagine some places use them.

But, there are hanging ones as well, aka punching bags. Do you think that modern practitioners, do not use what is currently available, material wise?

And, why would you even attack that, that is like insinuating that a free standing punching bag is useless.

Oh and actually yeah he will say that tbh because according to him hitting a punch bag is useless and ineffective

 

[Graywalker]

Oh and actually yeah he will say that tbh because according to him hitting a punch bag is useless and ineffective

Well, its ok.. I have to go teach a crappy karate class, so I need to head out and get a bail of hay.

 

[Flying Crane]

I have a challenge. How many people did actual combat systems - Boxing, Kickboxing, Judo, BJJ, and TMA, and found TMA superior? They invaribly see the light when introduced to real combat systems and we rarely hear Boxers, Kickboxers wanting their money back lol..

I faced a judo guy once. We agreed to fisticuffs, using only our martial training. As he moved to close the distance and lay hands upon me, I drew forth my dao (Chinese big knife/saber) and I relied upon my training with said weapon to quickly remove his brain-cage from his shoulders. I snickered at the sound of his skull bouncing across the flagstones.

I faced a Muay Thai fellow once, under agreement to a trial of martial skills in combative contest. As he approached me with his guard held high and his leg poised to kick, I snatched forth my spear and I ripped out his guts with the razor-edged before pinning him to the tree behind by driving the spear through his chest. I laughed as he screamed and died.

A BJJ fellow wished to cross hands with me. I consented and we signed the customary injury and death releases. When he reached for my jacket I took up my long staff and smashed the end of it down into the joint between his neck and shoulder, driving him down to the pavement. I then split his head like a melon with a second strike, giggling gleefully as his brains painted the floor.

A kickboxer accosted me outside of Kathmandu. He danced near with a jab and I pierced his heart with my jian (Chinese double-edged straight sword). He died instantly; I watched the light of life flee from his eyes as he fell. I later made rude jokes about it on Twitter.

I had word that a boxing champion was heading for my home, determined to avenge some imagined grievance. I saw his approach through my open window. I was ill with the flu that day so I drew forth my rifle and took lazy aim. I pulled the trigger and guffawed as his head exploded in a cloud of bone and brains. I sent a letter via certified post to my true love, describing in lurid detail the mess left on the pavement.

You got any other stupid things that you want to say about “actual combat systems”?

 

[Steve]

This discussion reminds me of how the Martial Arts Tutor guy used to be. Ironically after he started taking MMA classes he began to have a higher appreciation and a better understanding of TMA systems

Training a TMA the way folks train MMA will definitely make one’s TMA better. No doubt in my mind.

 

[Steve]

I would, as a long time practitioner of Karate, like to answer this question....

'and not Karate practitioners in here replying to a thread about kata and Japanese based systems.'

Because we have heard it all before, over the last 30 to 40 years. Every 5yrs, every decade, something new pops up, some unheard style, some new method. And, zealots of these 'better than Karate' start squawking, the exact same regurgitated nonsense about Karate and how it sucks. And open gyms, schools, and tend to denounce and spew the same tired gospel, near those sucky karate schools.

Some even have the balls, to walk into Dojo's and prove it sucks. Same nonsense, same children.

But, as time goes on, the school of bad****ry, those awesome gyms, usually close within 5yrs.

Point in case, the Dojo I started in, at 14yrs old is still open, I am 51years old. I seen at least two MMA schools open and close within 3-5yrs. The Dojo is still there, it is still putting out longterm students and high quality people. Heck, the town I currently live in, has a school that has been there 25yrs and yup, gyms opened there as well...not now but yeah, you know, karate sucks.

In simple words

1) There is nothing to defend...karate outlast.
2) This one might shock you...you are not the first to spew this nonsense. We have heard it before and we will hear it again...
3) which leads me to third...we are still here, and to stay.

In the end, its our time to waste, and we love wasting time.

Some good stuff here. But just to address the new stuff argument, BJJ is as old as most karate styles, and modern MMA is over 25 years old, and goes back further if you look at shoot fighting and similar things in Asia.

This isn’t about what’s new or not. I’ve also seen quite a few karate schools close over the years. Being a successful business person isn’t always a reliable indicator of martial skill or the quality of the product.

 

[Steve]

I faced a judo guy once. We agreed to fisticuffs, using only our martial training. As he moved to close the distance and lay hands upon me, I drew forth my dao (Chinese big knife/saber) and I relied upon my training with said weapon to quickly remove his brain-cage from his shoulders. I snickered at the sound of his skull bouncing across the flagstones.

I faced a Muay Thai fellow once, under agreement to a trial of martial skills in combative contest. As he approached me with his guard held high and his leg poised to kick, I snatched forth my spear and I ripped out his guts with the razor-edged before pinning him to the tree behind by driving the spear through his chest. I laughed as he screamed and died.

A BJJ fellow wished to cross hands with me. I consented and we signed the customary injury and death releases. When he reached for my jacket I took up my long staff and smashed the end of it down into the joint between his neck and shoulder, driving him down to the pavement. I then split his head like a melon with a second strike, giggling gleefully as his brains painted the floor.

A kickboxer accosted me outside of Kathmandu. He danced near with a jab and I pierced his heart with my jian (Chinese double-edged straight sword). He died instantly; I watched the light of life flee from his eyes as he fell. I later made rude jokes about it on Twitter.

I had word that a boxing champion was heading for my home, determined to avenge some imagined grievance. I saw his approach through my open window. I was ill with the flu that day so I drew forth my rifle and took lazy aim. I pulled the trigger and guffawed as his head exploded in a cloud of bone and brains. I sent a letter via certified post to my true love, describing in lurid detail the mess left on the pavement.

You got any other stupid things that you want to say about “actual combat systems”?

After a post like that, I’d be careful casting stones at others for posting stupid things. This was an utterly ridiculous piece of fan fiction.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Plenty of people here do karate and taekwondo. Most of them replied to you earlier on, then gave up when you didn't want to engage in an actual discussion with them and instead just continued to bash their systems. I'm guessing the CMA guys on here either didn't see those first few (since they actually were karate/tkd/boxing based), or just didn't care as much so they're the only ones still engaging with you.

For me I'm more willing to take a back seat, so that practitioners in the said systems can "defend" or educate other's about how their system trains. Once that stuff is said, I like to build off some of those comments in wider perspective of things.

I'm really big on people seeing "a larger picture" I even teach in the same manner. It's not about watching for the punch, it's about watching the entire body and how it shifts in preparation to punch.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Training a TMA the way folks train MMA will definitely make one’s TMA better. No doubt in my mind.

It will. MMA guys train to fight. if TMA guys train to fight then they improve greatly in terms of being able to use and understand martial arts through the experience of using it vs just the experience of doing the form. My personal blinded opinion is that all TMA should train to fight. But that's with the understanding that just because I train to fight doesn't mean I'm looking to get into fights. For me it's a faster path to understanding the martial arts techniques that one trains.

My son learned this the hard way 3 days ago. I told him about how the eyes track targets and why Jow Ga techniques work. He tried to be a Smart A. and was going to prove me wrong. During the explanation of the concept I moved to my left and he was going to prove that he would track my fist and not my body movements. He was waiting for me to move left. This time I moved right, His eyes tracked my body and not my fist. My fist stopped in front of his face and he never saw it coming. I knew he understood the lesson because he gave a laugh of amazement, as he knew without a doubt that his dad got the best of him..

The point of the story is that I could tell someone the same thing for weeks and months. They will think the same as he did and then build assumption based on how they thought I was wrong or just full of it. For my son it wasn't until he was engaged in the fighting part that he really understood what I was telling him in the beginning. Hitting an tennis ball with tennis racket is different than going through the form of hitting a tennis ball with tennis racket.

Like you stated, if they train with the same focus that MMA fighters have then it will definitely make their TMA better.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

dismiss katas as a waste of time,

If you say that the "too much" form training may "delay" a person's sparring training, I'll agree with you there.

One of my Chinese wrestling students wants to learn the long fist system from me. I asked him how much training time will he put in. After he told me that he has a full time job, wife and kid, and mortgage payment. I told him that he may not have enough training time to learn the "complete" long fist system.

In the long fist system, there are 10 open hands forms that one needs to learn.

Here are those 10 open hand forms (one can find all these forms online - I love the internet age).

1. 10 roads Tantui.

2. Lien Bu Chuan.

3. Gong Li Chuan.

4. 1st road Mai Fu Chuan.

5. 2nd road Mai Fu Chuan.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

6. Shi Tzi Tang Chuan.

7. Shi Lu Ben Da.

8. 3rd road Pao Chuan.

9. 4th road Cha Chuan.

10. Tai Zui long fist.

After the open hand form training, there are 8 more weapon form training :

- 1 staff form.
- 2 Dao forms.
- 2 sword forms.
- 1 spear foem.
- 1 Dao against spear form, and
- 1 Guan Dao against spear form.

The issue is, unless one starts from a young age, after he has finished all those training, he may be too old to spar/wrestle.

 

[Buka]

I gotta go make some popcorn for this.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you don't use the stances when sparring, all you are doing then is performance martial arts, and that's not what they are marketed as. And I know of no TMA place that use Kata as warm-ups. It is the essential feature of their systems

I only trained in two Karate systems, one of them being Shotokan (I've don't know what the other was, but I suspect it was American Karate). Neither instructor used kata in any of the classes I attended. Clearly your statement ("It is the essential feature of their systems.") isn't as universal as it seems.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have a challenge. How many people did actual combat systems - Boxing, Kickboxing, Judo, BJJ, and TMA, and found TMA superior? They invaribly see the light when introduced to real combat systems and we rarely hear Boxers, Kickboxers wanting their money back lol..

I was a Judo student well before I got into NGA (which is more traditional). I found NGA more comprehensive and concept-based. I don't consider either superior - they are different, and play well together.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This forums seems to be a refugee for kung fu practitioners getting battered around in regular, non friendly forums. 99% of the USER replies seems to be Kung Fu and not Karate practitioners in here replying to a thread about kata and Japanese based systems. And users in general seems to do american martial arts and or kung fu, instead of more mainstream stuff like Karate, TaeKwondo

What gives?

If you didn't want it to be a general discussion, perhaps "General Martial Arts" was the wrong sub-forum to post in.