Shadow Boxing vs Kata fallacy argument.

[Gerry Seymour]

Sad thing is that Katas were most likely instructions for beginners, yet advance practitioners still train them as the main part of their system. Hence the lack of realism in attack and defense, because it's so basic and never meant for higher levels

Basic drills are often used by advanced practitioners. They become less basic when those folks do them.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sad thing is that Katas were most likely instructions for beginners, yet advance practitioners still train them as the main part of their system. Hence the lack of realism in attack and defense, because it's so basic and never meant for higher levels

I challenge you to support these statements.

I think you are literally making this up.

 

[geezer]

Acronym - You have a very narrow opinion of what kata is, how it's practiced, and what it's benefits are. I noticed that it was only well into the discussion that you attempted to limit your discussion to kata practice in traditional Okinawan karate and not the practice of kata and forms in the broader, general martial arts context. If you truly want to so limit the discussion, you should have 1. Posted in the Karate sub-forum, and 2. Stated that in the OP.

Not that you would have received any less blow-back.

Now as far as forms being mere instruction for beginners, I can't see that. In the Wing Chun lineage I've trained, we continue to introduce forms at many levels over many years throughout our training. And, although long past my prime, I still find new insights from practicing and teaching our most basic form, Siu Nim Tau, or the "Little Idea".

I will agree that forms, at least in WC are notheing like shadow boxing and have a very different function. On the other hand, the training sets in the escrima system I practice begin like kata ...each starting as a sequence of choreographed combinations performed against visualized attacks, and then become increasingly free-form in steps, sequence and execution as you advance, ending up being essentially very much like shadow-boxing.

Perhaps the take away here is not to make such over-generalized statements as the OP. Or at least if you do, understand that it will elicit a lot of disagreement and controversy. And maybe that's a good thing.

 

[Acronym]

I challenge you to support these statements.

I think you are literally making this up.

The reverse punch and blocking techniques are unimaginative, stiff, and dogmatic configurations that could only serve as very basic and intro to striking and blocking. No angles, No head movement, no footwork. No even moderately advanced practitioner atttacks or defends in the manner that is being presented. The one step and two step sparring set-ups are not even remotely realistic, yet it is trained as if it is.

And again, the tsuki/straight punch in free sparring is thrown with dynamic footwork, often bouncy, which is in stark contrast to the flatfooted and stationary kata deliveries, with no head movement, or angles.

 

[Flying Crane]

The reverse punch and blocking techniques are unimaginative, stiff, and dogmatic configurations that could only serve as very basic and intro to striking and blocking. No angles, No head movement, no footwork. No even moderately advanced practitioner atttacks or defends in the manner that is being presented. The one step and two step sparring set-ups are not even remotely realistic, yet it is trained as if it is.

And again, the tsuki/straight punch in free sparring is thrown with dynamic footwork, often bouncy, which is in stark contrast to the flatfooted and stationary kata deliveries, with no head movement, or angles.

No forms practice in my experience even remotely resembles what you describe here. So you are wrong.

Got any documentation you can point to in order to support your position? Any historical documents from any founders that describe kata as intended for beginners only?

Clearly you are making this up.

Remember what I said about making generalizations...

 

[Acronym]

Acronym - You have a very narrow opinion of what kata is, how it's practiced, and what it's benefits are. I noticed that it was only well into the discussion that you attempted to limit your discussion to kata practice in traditional Okinawan karate and not the practice of kata and forms in the broader, general martial arts context. If you truly want to so limit the discussion, you should have 1. Posted in the Karate sub-forum, and 2. Stated that in the OP.

Not that you would have received any less blow-back.

Now as far as forms being mere instruction for beginners, I can't see that. In the Wing Chun lineage I've trained, we continue to introduce forms at many levels over many years throughout our training. And, although long past my prime, I still find new insights from practicing and teaching our most basic form, Siu N
im Tau, or the "Little Idea".

I will agree that forms, at least in WC are notheing like shadow boxing and have a very different function. On the other hand, the training sets in the escrima system I practice begin like kata ...each starting as a sequence of choreographed combinations performed against visualized attacks, and then become increasingly free-form in steps, sequence and execution as you advance, ending up being essentially very much like shadow-boxing.

Perhaps the take away here is not to make such over-generalized statements as the OP. Or at least if you do, understand that it will elicit a lot of disagreement and controversy. And maybe that's a good thing.

Kata is a japanese term, hence in reference to Japanese systems. I am not over-generalizing at all.

 

[Acronym]

No forms practice in my experience even remotely resembles what you describe here. So you are wrong.

Got any documentation you can point to in order to support your position? Any historical documents from any founders that describe kata as intended for beginners only?

Clearly you are making this up.

Remember what I said about making generalizations...

So you haven't done Karate then. I will not do the homework for you. You can google one step and two step-sparring and then tell me whether this looks like advanced practise.

Itosu Anko said "advanced practitioners move freely" and that Katas are not a direct representation of fighting.

 

[Acronym]

Unlike the Japanese, the Chinese realised that their method is outdated for the modern world and created Sanda, which is modern-day Chinese Kickboxing, with stand-up wrestling integrated. And Sanda has proven to be effective against trained fighters.

 

[Acronym]

No forms practice in my experience even remotely resembles what you describe here. So you are wrong.

...

Reference then a Karate Kata with head movement. If you even know what that means..

 

[Flying Crane]

So you haven't done Karate then. I will not do the homework for you. You can google one step and two step-sparring and then tell me whether this looks like advanced practise.

Itosu Anko said "advanced practitioners move freely" and that Katas are not a direct representation of fighting.

Throwing around your opinion as if it means something... does not make it mean something.

I’ll ask again: why don’t you just find a method that doesn’t use kata? There are plenty out there. You don’t like kata, you don’t have to do it. In fact, nobody wants you to do it.

@Buka practices an Americanized method of karate that does not use kata. If you are particularly interested in Karate I am sure he could steer you in the right direction, if he is willing to suffer you. Otherwise there are things like Muay Thai and plenty of grappling methods.

Go find something you like. Stop blathering about things you do not understand.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Kata is a japanese term, hence in reference to Japanese systems. I am not over-generalizing at all.

If we know your definition of "Kata" is for Karate only, CMA guys won't even participate into this discussion.

This is why I don't like to use the foreign term such as "Kata". Why not just use the term "Karate form"?

 

[Acronym]

Throwing around your opinion as if it means something... does not make it mean something.

I’ll ask again: why don’t you just find a method that doesn’t use kata? .

I did move on to boxing. I have not trained TMA formally for 2 years

 

[Acronym]

If we know your definition of "Kata" is for Karate only, CMA guys won't even participate into this discussion.

This is why I don't like to use the foreign term such as "Kata". Why not just use the term "Karate form"?

There are Chinese Kata in Japanese systems too. Tang Soo Do has Kata directly lifted from Kung Fu and not just Shotokan.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The reverse punch and blocking techniques are unimaginative, stiff, and dogmatic configurations that could only serve as very basic and intro to striking and blocking. No angles, No head movement, no footwork.

It's not supposed to train angles and head movement. It trains footwork in terms of foot positioning. But that other stuff that you pointed about training angles and head movement., It's not supposed to do that. If you want to use a form for this, then you'll need to take a part of that form and convert it into a partner drill.

It's like saying a plane doesn't travel on water well and it can't fly under water, so it sucks and is useless. But the truth is that the purpose of the plane isn't to do that.

Kata was never meant to fit all training needs. To my knowledge I've never heard anyone try to claim this except for people who don't understand it. In martial arts you have Kata, solo drills, partner drills, sparring, and additional things that you do as a total package.

 

[Flying Crane]

I did move on to boxing. I have not trained TMA formally for 2 years

So...what’s your problem then?

 

[Acronym]

It's not supposed to train angles and head movement. It trains footwork in terms of foot positioning. But that other stuff that you pointed about training angles and head movement., It's not supposed to do that. If you want to use a form for this, then you'll need to take a part of that form and convert it into a partner drill.

It's like saying a plane doesn't travel on water well and it can't fly under water, so it sucks and is useless. But the truth is that the purpose of the plane isn't to do that.

Kata was never meant to fit all training needs. To my knowledge I've never heard anyone try to claim this except for people who don't understand it. In martial arts you have Kata, solo drills, partner drills, sparring, and additional things that you do as a total package.

If you don't use the stances when sparring, all you are doing then is performance martial arts, and that's not what they are marketed as. And I know of no TMA place that use Kata as warm-ups. It is the essential feature of their systems

 

[Acronym]

So...what’s your problem then?

Do I need to have a problem with the universe to discuss physics?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I did move on to boxing. I have not trained TMA formally for 2 years

Boxing may not separate beginner training and advance training. All TMA has at least 2 levels of training, the beginner training and the advance training.

To say that form training is only for the beginner is not true.

For example,

beginner level - static punch (punch while feet are not moving).
advance level - dynamic punch (punch while feet are moving).

Example of dynamic punch:

 

[Flying Crane]

If we know your definition of "Kata" is for Karate only, CMA guys won't even participate into this discussion.

This is why I don't like to use the foreign term such as "Kata". Why not just use the term "Karate form"?

I have no qualms over participating in a thread like this. Chinese methods played a big influencing role in the development of Okinawan methods, and many Chinese methods follow the similar practice of forms. The perspective of the CMA crowd is definitely appropriate.

 

[Flying Crane]

Do I need to have a problem with the universe to discuss physics?

Physics?? Oh now THAT is comedy!

You are here to whine and complain about a method that you are embittered over. Grow up.