Requiring Patience For The Black Belt And For Rank Advancement In General

[PhotonGuy]

I’ve discussed this before about somebody who posted on a martial arts Internet forum, not this one, who said his instructor required patience to get a black belt and for rank advancement in general. He didn’t really get into detail about the system that his instructor used for rank advancement except to say that the instructor tells the student when they will test because patience was a requirement. So for instance lets say there’s a brown belt student at his dojo and the next time the student gets promoted it will be to that of first degree black belt. Even if the student is skilled enough to pass the test the instructor might not tell the student they can test because he wants the student to be patient. So when I posted about this before some people said that this was a good idea but I don’t entirely agree, I think if somebody is skilled enough they should be allowed to promote because, number one, time is precious, and number two, if a student has skill that means they’ve got patience simply because it takes patience to develop skill, that’s just my position on it.

 

[drop bear]

It is the difference between competition rank and school rank.

Both are important.

But because they are different it allows different ways to achieve recognition in martial arts.

 

[isshinryuronin]

the instructor might not tell the student they can test because he wants the student to be patient. So when I posted about this before some people said that this was a good idea but I don’t entirely agree, I think if somebody is skilled enough they should be allowed to promote because, number one, time is precious, and number two, if a student has skill that means they’ve got patience simply because it takes patience to develop skill

I think it's OK to delay a test. It helps keep the student from being too belt conscious. Of course, if taken too far it can be counterproductive to the average student's motivation.

The part I put in bold type is true, but one must realize that patience itself is a skill. Not only needed in developing a particular technical skill, but in the application of tactics and waiting for the right timing to attack. Patience in fighting takes mental discipline and a calm spirit which are also valuable skills.

In everyday life, impatience is a major cause of accidents - "Haste makes waste." There is more value in patience than you think. The fact you discuss this topic only in relation to belt color kind of reinforces my second sentence in this post.

Yes, "time is precious," but when looking at a journey of 8-40 years, a few months wait is not significant.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Even if the student is skilled enough to pass the test the instructor might not tell the student they can test because he wants the student to be patient.

That should already be a secondary, even if unintended, function of time in grade requirements.

Are you saying that this particular school doesn't have TIG requirements? That the instructor comes to you when he feels that you've suppressed your dopamine cravings long enough?

Yeah, that's a mind game that no self-respecting adult has time for.

 

[HighKick]

I’ve discussed this before about somebody who posted on a martial arts Internet forum, not this one, who said his instructor required patience to get a black belt and for rank advancement in general. He didn’t really get into detail about the system that his instructor used for rank advancement except to say that the instructor tells the student when they will test because patience was a requirement. So for instance lets say there’s a brown belt student at his dojo and the next time the student gets promoted it will be to that of first degree black belt. Even if the student is skilled enough to pass the test the instructor might not tell the student they can test because he wants the student to be patient. So when I posted about this before some people said that this was a good idea but I don’t entirely agree, I think if somebody is skilled enough they should be allowed to promote because, number one, time is precious, and number two, if a student has skill that means they’ve got patience simply because it takes patience to develop skill, that’s just my position on it.

I can't agree with this. God given ability and genetics will always play a Big role in any sport. But ability does prevent a person from being a d**k with their training, nor does it have much to do with people who are exceptionally gifted

 

[PhotonGuy]

That should already be a secondary, even if unintended, function of time in grade requirements.

Are you saying that this particular school doesn't have TIG requirements? That the instructor comes to you when he feels that you've suppressed your dopamine cravings long enough?

Yeah, that's a mind game that no self-respecting adult has time for.

By time in grade requirements I take it you mean a minimal amount of time a student has to hold their current rank before they're eligible for promotion. For instance, before you can be a black belt you have to be a brown belt for a certain x length of time and only after you've been a brown belt for that length of time are you eligible for the black belt no matter how skilled you might be, minimum time requirements aren't uncommon and those I can understand as long as the minimum time requirement is within reason but as to the student I was referring to in my original post, Im not quite sure that's how it was done at his dojo.

The impression I got was that at his dojo you had to wait indefinitely to promote because the sensei wanted you to be patient. For instance if you were a brown belt working on getting a black belt you would have to wait indefinitely before you could test for the black belt no matter how skilled you might be, all in the name of patience. I could be wrong with my impression but that was just the impression I got from the description he gave.

Anyway, that's what Im against, having to wait indefinitely just because your sensei wants you to be patient. If your sensei does have reasonable minimum time requirements then you should be able to test once you've met those requirements, so if you've been a brown belt for as long as you need to be in order to fulfill the minimum time requirement then you should be eligible to test for the black belt. It's having to wait indefinitely that Im against.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think it's OK to delay a test. It helps keep the student from being too belt conscious. Of course, if taken too far it can be counterproductive to the average student's motivation.

The part I put in bold type is true, but one must realize that patience itself is a skill. Not only needed in developing a particular technical skill, but in the application of tactics and waiting for the right timing to attack. Patience in fighting takes mental discipline and a calm spirit which are also valuable skills.

In everyday life, impatience is a major cause of accidents - "Haste makes waste." There is more value in patience than you think. The fact you discuss this topic only in relation to belt color kind of reinforces my second sentence in this post.

Yes, "time is precious," but when looking at a journey of 8-40 years, a few months wait is not significant.

As I said in post #6 I can understand about having minimum time requirements but what Im against is having to wait indefinitely. I can see about having to wait a few months but it's when you have to wait unreasonably long, that's what Im against.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I can't agree with this. God given ability and genetics will always play a Big role in any sport. But ability does prevent a person from being a d**k with their training, nor does it have much to do with people who are exceptionally gifted

So what do you think should be required for promotion?

 

[Hot Lunch]

By time in grade requirements I take it you mean a minimal amount of time a student has to hold their current rank before they're eligible for promotion. For instance, before you can be a black belt you have to be a brown belt for a certain x length of time and only after you've been a brown belt for that length of time are you eligible for the black belt no matter how skilled you might be, minimum time requirements aren't uncommon and those I can understand as long as the minimum time requirement is within reason but as to the student I was referring to in my original post, Im not quite sure that's how it was done at his dojo.

The impression I got was that at his dojo you had to wait indefinitely to promote because the sensei wanted you to be patient. For instance if you were a brown belt working on getting a black belt you would have to wait indefinitely before you could test for the black belt no matter how skilled you might be, all in the name of patience. I could be wrong with my impression but that was just the impression I got from the description he gave.

Anyway, that's what Im against, having to wait indefinitely just because your sensei wants you to be patient. If your sensei does have reasonable minimum time requirements then you should be able to test once you've met those requirements, so if you've been a brown belt for as long as you need to be in order to fulfill the minimum time requirement then you should be eligible to test for the black belt. It's having to wait indefinitely that Im against.

I don't think this has anything at with "being patient."

I didn't have a part-time job when I was in high school, but some of my friends did. And some of their parents would take a good portion of their money from them. The reason their parents gave was to "teach them responsibility."

Did their parents put any of the money, much less all of it, into a fund that only benefitted the child that they took it from? Nope. That money went straight into their own pockets.

This is the same thing. Where "be patient" is analogous to "I'm teaching you responsibility."

Whereas the parents blowing the money their child earned at McDonald's on beer, cigarettes, and gambling is analogous to the instructor wanting to exert power over someone though these mind games.

 

[wab25]

I’ve discussed this before about somebody who posted on a martial arts Internet forum, not this one,

Guys.... we are not talking to the student being held up here, we are talking about a student the OP discussed someplace else online. As such, we do not know any details about what was really going on.

the instructor tells the student when they will test because patience was a requirement.

We do not have any context here.... Is this a kids class, where the kids start and end every conversation with the teacher with "When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted?"

Is this an adult class, where the adults are just trying to charge through the ranks to the end, starting each conversation with: "When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted?"

Is this a case where the student can't successfully do their assigned kata, but wants promotion anyway, and the teacher is tired of asking him to learn the kata first?

Personally, I train to train. I have never asked to test for promotion. In fact, I have turned down invitations to test for promotion because I was not where I wanted to be. The thing I use to keep my gi closed is just that... the thing I use to keep my gi closed. If it changes color at some point, great I will continue to train. If it doesn't change color, great I will continue to train. Who cares how many dans I have? All I care about is being able to train, to learn, to improve and to study. Working up a good sweat, getting some exercise is good as well.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Is this an adult class, where the adults are just trying to charge through the ranks to the end, starting each conversation with: "When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted?"

Personally, I train to train. I have never asked to test for promotion. In fact, I have turned down invitations to test for promotion because I was not where I wanted to be. The thing I use to keep my gi closed is just that... the thing I use to keep my gi closed. If it changes color at some point, great I will continue to train. If it doesn't change color, great I will continue to train. Who cares how many dans I have? All I care about is being able to train, to learn, to improve and to study. Working up a good sweat, getting some exercise is good as well.

Transparency is always important to me. And that's with everything, not just martial arts. If you have to ask "when can I get promoted" in the first place, then that means the system wasn't explained to you - either out of neglect (unprofessional), or maybe they want you to operate in ambiguity (childish mind games). No one should have to deal with that.

I knew from the beginning what the answer was in ISKF Shotokan. Three months for each kyu rank up to ikkyu, one year to shodan, two years to nidan, three years to sandan, etc, etc. I've never had to ask, because this was explained in the beginning.

 

[wab25]

Transparency is always important to me. And that's with everything, not just martial arts.

So.... let's be transparent.... we are arguing about what some guy on an internet forum said, that some other guy on some other forum complained about... with no other context than that.

If you have to ask "when can I get promoted" in the first place, then that means the system wasn't explained to you

Try explaining to a 5 year old, that the car drive will take 3 hours to get to grandma's house... then count the times they ask "Are there yet?" Sit in rush hour traffic in a large city, and watch all the people getting upset that no one is moving forward. Presumably, everyone has a drivers license, which means they studied what a red light means, and that you can not go forward if the cars in front of you are stopped.

 

[HighKick]

So what do you think should be required for promotion?

I can't say, I do not know you, your style, or your systems requirements.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I don't think this has anything at with "being patient."

I didn't have a part-time job when I was in high school, but some of my friends did. And some of their parents would take a good portion of their money from them. The reason their parents gave was to "teach them responsibility."

Did their parents put any of the money, much less all of it, into a fund that only benefitted the child that they took it from? Nope. That money went straight into their own pockets.

I don't know the situation your friends were in but maybe their families fell onto hard times and they were helping to pay the bills. It's not uncommon for people in high school to sometimes get part time jobs to help pay the bills when their families are struggling financially.

This is the same thing. Where "be patient" is analogous to "I'm teaching you responsibility."

Well as I said, a sensei can have a minimum time requirement that you have to be at your current rank before you can promote to your next rank, if they want to teach patience.

Whereas the parents blowing the money their child earned at McDonald's on beer, cigarettes, and gambling is analogous to the instructor wanting to exert power over someone though these mind games.

And if you ask me, having to wait indefinitely before you test is exactly a such.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Guys.... we are not talking to the student being held up here, we are talking about a student the OP discussed someplace else online. As such, we do not know any details about what was really going on.

Yes and I really do wish I could provide more information.

We do not have any context here.... Is this a kids class, where the kids start and end every conversation with the teacher with "When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted?"

Is this an adult class, where the adults are just trying to charge through the ranks to the end, starting each conversation with: "When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted? When can I get promoted?"

I did have the impression that it was an adult who was posting. As for asking about when you can get promoted, the way it worked at my first dojo was that tests were held about every four months so there would be no reason to ask when the test was going to be because it would be four months from when the last test was. You then of course had to do well enough in the test in order to pass so the answer to when you could get promoted would be when you test and are able to pass the test. If you fail though, you would be told why you failed so you would know what you need to work on if you want to try passing the next time around (in another four months.)

Is this a case where the student can't successfully do their assigned kata, but wants promotion anyway, and the teacher is tired of asking him to learn the kata first?

I couldn't imagine a student being allowed to pass when their skill is below the standards to pass and I wouldn't want to pass if my skill was below the standards as that would be a lie, if my instructor were to tell me that Im good enough to pass when Im not. This includes katas, I wouldn't want to pass if my kata wasn't good enough so I wouldn't ask to pass, but I might ask what I need to work on in my kata so that I can pass.

Personally, I train to train. I have never asked to test for promotion. In fact, I have turned down invitations to test for promotion because I was not where I wanted to be. The thing I use to keep my gi closed is just that... the thing I use to keep my gi closed. If it changes color at some point, great I will continue to train. If it doesn't change color, great I will continue to train. Who cares how many dans I have? All I care about is being able to train, to learn, to improve and to study. Working up a good sweat, getting some exercise is good as well.

Good for you, everybody trains for their own reasons and not everybody is in it for belts or rank. Some people don't care about earning belts and that's fine, and it's also fine if you do want to earn belts.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Transparency is always important to me. And that's with everything, not just martial arts. If you have to ask "when can I get promoted" in the first place, then that means the system wasn't explained to you - either out of neglect (unprofessional), or maybe they want you to operate in ambiguity (childish mind games). No one should have to deal with that.

Well if you're unclear about something on how the system for promotion works than you should ask and you shouldn't have any reluctance to ask and you should ask the chief instructor, the head honcho of the dojo.

I knew from the beginning what the answer was in ISKF Shotokan. Three months for each kyu rank up to ikkyu, one year to shodan, two years to nidan, three years to sandan, etc, etc. I've never had to ask, because this was explained in the beginning.

Sounds to me like it was quite clearly spelled out although if a student is unclear about something there is still no reason they shouldn't ask the main person in charge.

 

[Bonhomme]

It depends very much on the individual student, do they demonstrate a lack of patience? If so, then that is a valued skill they need to develop. If the motivation is for the sensei to make more money or exert their control, then I don't necessarily agree. I'm not a fan of hard time in rank rules because it dismisses students' abilities - some will develop faster and be discouraged by time requirements, others will struggle, yet pass because they've put in the time. Yes, some schools promote solely on time/fees paid. It is the responsibility of the teacher to develop students individually and over reliance on time standards takes away that responsibility. And yes, a child's impatience can be very challenging, but that is why the leadership skills of the teacher are critical in guiding that student.

Also consider that schools can't be everything to every student. Where is the schools focus - babysitting kids and handing out belts or training hard core warriors ready for combat at any moment (and, of course, everything between those extremes)? I think too many schools just try to fill the mat, and rely of generalized curriculums to deal with not being able to lead individuals along their journey.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I can't say, I do not know you, your style, or your systems requirements.

What I meant is, if you were running a dojo, what do you think should be required for promotion in addition to knowing the material and having a certain level of skill?

 

[PhotonGuy]

So if a sensei is going to require patience for rank advancement he could do it by simply having minimum time requirements for rank advancement. Before you can advance in rank you have to be at your current rank for a minimal length of time, within reason. Before you can be a black belt you have to be a brown belt for a reasonable minimal length of time, once you've been a brown belt for that minimum length of time you should then be eligible to test for the black belt.

 

[ap Oweyn]

So if a sensei is going to require patience for rank advancement he could do it by simply having minimum time requirements for rank advancement. Before you can advance in rank you have to be at your current rank for a minimal length of time, within reason. Before you can be a black belt you have to be a brown belt for a reasonable minimal length of time, once you've been a brown belt for that minimum length of time you should then be eligible to test for the black belt.

PhotonGuy, do you mind if I ask you a question? And feel free not to answer. But are you training somewhere? What does your instructor say about this?