Recent Video by Alan Orr

[guy b.]

Ok, so it's funny that because I mentioned that I trained under the Sofos guys for some time you immediately trawl the net to find that hilarious Sid Sofos "cult" clip to pethaps, in your mind, devalue the weight of my opinion. A tad childish methinks. For the record I left his organization a long time ago and have sought to improve my skills elsewhere.

I've never heard of Sid Sofos. I typed his name into google and this was what came up. Is this the guy? Can't say I watched the clip, it looked pretty dull.

Like I said the WSL guys I touched hands with were no great shakes. Who were they? I don't think it matters as you would probably say they don't have the real "VT" that only you seem to have.

In terms of WSL guys in the UK, it is very important who there were, as there are/were lots of frauds and seminar students. Who did you train with?

Calling Mr Orr unbalanced?

He challenged me to a fight with his friend. Seems a bizarre thing to do on a discussion forum

from what I've read on the other forum you were disrespectful about the pedigree of one of his guys

I identified Peter Irving as a low to mid level MMA fighter. This is a fact verifiable by checking his record, not an act of disrescpect towards Peter Irving, and certainly not towards Alan. It was really nice of Alan to jump in and protect his friend from this offence by offering a random stranger the chance to go and fight him. You don't find that a bit odd? I wonder why it is banned on the forum?

Of course no one in their right mind is going to pay an unknown quantity to spar a professional mma fighter, which of course you knew full well before making the offer.

Your grammar is very confused again. It was me that was asking for the money, in order to fight Alan's representative for Alan's purposes. Why would I fight Peter Irving for no money? Fighting is hard work.

A very "brave" get out clause to avoid perhaps showing us that your skills ain't quite what you claim them to be.,.,:

Alan often offers no money to people while trying to get them to fight in his shows. He usually wants them to do it for the exposure. Understandably these offers are not very popular among the UK MMA community. Simple common sense I would say.

 

[guy b.]

Alan says it's because the force flow is invisible, so unless you understand it, you can't see it.

Maybe you have to believe it to see it?

 

[guy b.]

ust because it is different from what you do does not make it "reinvented." You have posted things about WSLVT that have left me wondering as well. You say that none of the techniques from Chi Sau or Lop Sau etc are actually used in fighting. You say that you don't think there would be any "attachment" to the opponent when fighting...just unattached punching. You say there are no "applications" in WSLVT. You say there is no Tan Da in WSLVT. You say WSLVT is all about the punch. To me, all of this sounds a lot less like "standard" Wing Chun than CSL Wing Chun! So I would be careful about using the word "reinvented" in reference to anyone else's method!

Making big claims but refusing to answer questions should be a warning for most people to be alert to the possibility that they are being conned. I have not shied away from answering questions about WSL VT where I can.

All of the above that you list are in line with core wing chun concepts. Block then punch, backwards moving tans, jum elbow going outwards - not so much. Looks more like basic misunderstanding of the system. And this is Alan's imitation of standard wing chun. It raises a few questions.

ot true at all. As I have already said, Alan has little time or patience for people that are just looking for something to criticize. And someone that has just pronounced that CSL has "reinvented Wing Chun" obviously is not asking questions because they truly want to learn.

I would happly switch to being a student of Alan's if it was the best thing to do. I worry about Alan's ability to answer questions, more than his willingness.

 

[KPM]

All of the above that you list are in line with core wing chun concepts.

---A Tan Da is not in line with core Wing Chun concepts? Only trying to punch the opponent and not using anything else..IS in line with core Wing Chun concepts? Not establishing a bridge to work from IS in line with core Wing Chun concepts? I don't think so!


Block then punch, backwards moving tans, jum elbow going outwards - not so much. Looks more like basic misunderstanding of the system.

---A backward moving Tan Sau is called a "Tun Sau" and uses the concept of "swallow." This is a common technique in mainland Wing Chun systems. It is a core technique in Pin Sun Wing Chun. I've pointed this out before on other threads, if you were paying attention.



And this is Alan's imitation of standard wing chun. It raises a few questions.

----The only question here in my mind, is how much you know about any Wing Chun that isn't WSLVT. And the answer seems to be....not much!


I worry about Alan's ability to answer questions, more than his willingness.

---No need to worry about that. I can assure you that Alan is able to answer questions quite well for those he thinks are actually worth answering. You haven't done anything more than turn another thread into a big argument.....again!

 

[wckf92]

Block then punch, backwards moving tans, jum elbow going outwards - not so much. Looks more like basic misunderstanding of the system.

I may have missed it, but which video or post was this? Would like to view the items Guy is mentioning.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Guy you come across as a patronizing school teacher, my grammar is perfectly adequate thanks. The "unknown quantity" I mentioned is you.

You seem to know an awful lot about how Alan Orr does things, maybe you know him better than you are letting on?

Your perception of the comments made regarding the spar offer on the other forum is way off mark. At no stage was a fight/death match/gong Sao suggested, you seem a trifle paranoid.

I read that you claim to have trained at his Kwoon. What took place? Did you dismantle Alan and his students with your superior skills? Did you even have the guts to let him know who you are?

I reckon it's a big fat no to all of them.

 

[KPM]

Gwo-sau is what you consider free sparring? I thought you were talking about the kind of thing he and Peter were doing.

---I said "light sparring." There are different types of sparring. Here is another video showing the fluid movement between Chi Sao rolling to light sparring and back again. Just because they don't have on gloves and look like an MMA match is no reason to think this is not also a form of sparring.

I don't need another video of explanation.

---Since you didn't seem to pay attention to the prior ones, maybe you do!


I'm simply asking where the effects of force flow on the opponent are in their free fighting. The unbalancing and bouncing them around bit.

---Maybe a little more apparent in the video I just posted.


If it actually works, and they spend so much time on it, one would expect to see it in their fights, but it never seems to appear.

---Well. The exact same thing can be said of the videos that PB has posted so often. For the amount of time they spend on the Lop Sau, to roll to punch, you'd also think it would show in their fights....but Guy has said it doesn't. Oh, there is also the small problem of the fact that they do seem to spar or fight!

 

[dudewingchun]

@Guyb.. you act like you can spar with someone of Peter Irving's level no problem but then when you get offered a chance to, you make a big deal out of it. If you are so good you really should have no problem doing it ? We dedicate ourselves to learning a fighting art so why would actually fighting be a big deal ?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I predict this thread will soon be locked

 

[SaulGoodman]

My final word on this thread regarding Guy B's rather passive aggressive nature relates to a threat he put out to a member of Kung fu magazine a while back (seeing as he's so fond of pointing out what others have done or said). It relates to a thread regarding a terrible sparring clip featuring a WSL instructor sparring a hsing-I guy (I think). He felt it was the best example of "ving tsun" under pressure available on the net. It was met with howls of derision by people who know what proper fighting/hard contact looks like. His response to one individual who questioned the validity of the clip was simply

"Post a credible clip and we can talk. Until then you are nothing and you stink of fear. I would smash you up standing I think. And I would break you to bits on the ground."

What a hypocrite.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I predict this thread will soon be locked

unfortunately. I didn't think the discussion would take this path. I was hoping to gain some more insight on the thinking of WC practitioners. I don't get a chance to spar with many so this is my only way to have an idea of how I have to make changes in how I apply my techniques in order to deal with WC.

 

[SaulGoodman]

unfortunately. I didn't think the discussion would take this path. I was hoping to gain some more insight on the thinking of WC practitioners. I don't get a chance to spar with many so this is my only way to have an idea of how I have to make changes in how I apply my techniques in order to deal with WC.

Rather than trying to find solutions of how to deal with Wc people on a Wc forum ,which seems a bit strange, why not seek outa Wc club or instructor and get some training? The best way to learn how to deal with an art is to train it...

 

[guy b.]

You seem to know an awful lot about how Alan Orr does things, maybe you know him better than you are letting on?

I have no idea

Your perception of the comments made regarding the spar offer on the other forum is way off mark.

Offering your friend to fight someone because you are arguing with them on a forum is insane. I have sparred guys like Peter Irving before so would be possible. I am just not interested in providing free promotional material for Alan.

I read that you claim to have trained at his Kwoon. What took place? Did you dismantle Alan and his students with your superior skills? Did you even have the guts to let him know who you are?

Of course I introduced myself to Alan. I don't think I had ever argued with him on a forum at that time. I went to see because I was training MMA in London at the time when he was spammng the forums. He was based in Swiss Cottage. Training wasn't particularly impressive. There was no sparring apart from grappling which they were very bad at. Alan came across as a bit of an egomaniac, but in an understandable kind of way. Prices were a bit silly. The main impression I came away with was TMA teacher jumping on the MMA bandwagon, students more money than sense. It was obviously a money earning enterprise rather than a serious place to train given options in that area at that time. That's about all that happened. My real insight into it happened somewhere else.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Are you autistic or something? Do you realize how insulting you come across when you throw out sweeping statements about other people's classes/skills. Do you have any empathy with people you meet face to face because you have none in this environment.

 

[guy b.]

My final word on this thread regarding Guy B's rather passive aggressive nature relates to a threat he put out to a member of Kung fu magazine

Maybe Alan is a master of deadpan and we will all be laughing tomorrow?

 

[guy b.]

Are you autistic or something? Do you realize how insulting you come across when you throw out sweeping statements about other people's classes/skills. Do you have any empathy with people you meet face to face because you have none in this environment.

I would say don't ask questions if you don't want answers.

Are the questions supposed to stun me into silence or something? Not sure why you are asking them

 

[geezer]

I would say don't ask questions if you don't want answers.

Are the questions supposed to stun me into silence or something? Not sure why you are asking them

Guy, can you please drop the back and forth and get back on topic? ....Force flow, remember? This is beginning to sound like the threads where you and KPM were locking horns. I'm sure who comes out on top is very important to the parties involved, but it makes for a piss-poor forum discussion.

The best question you brought up was how you don't see a lot of the unbalancing and body control in the Alan Orr sparring clips you posted. I see your point, but on the other hand I have worked with an MMA/Escrima guy named Martin Torres who also uses unbalancing pressure in his system. You can really see it when things get close ...toward the clinch. You don't see it, but I definitely feel it (being on the receiving end) at the boxing range. Contact is too brief to see anything, but his angling and pressure totally jacks me up. Different stuff, to be sure, but still, maybe this would apply to what Alan is showing in those clips?

 

[LFJ]

---Maybe a little more apparent in the video I just posted.

It doesn't happen in that video either.

When they go to what you call light sparring there is just loose striking and then clinch. Somewhere between this range is where supposedly he should be establishing a "bridge" and then using "force flow" to unbalance the guy and bounce him around while striking him.

It never happens.

Even if it did in light training with a likeminded person, it is still never seen in their actual fights. All we see is free striking and grappling, because that's what actually works.

---Well. The exact same thing can be said of the videos that PB has posted so often. For the amount of time they spend on the Lop Sau, to roll to punch, you'd also think it would show in their fights....

There is a very important difference here.

This force flow thing is said to be used directly in fighting. The end goal is to be able to manipulate the opponent's body and balance while striking them. But it never happens.

Training drills in WSLVT are abstract, not meant to be used directly in fighting. We train pun-sau to develop the punch. Pun-sau doesn't happen in fighting, but punching obviously does. There's no disconnect between what we say we use in fighting, and what is actually used.

 

[Alan Orr]

I've never heard of Sid Sofos. I typed his name into google and this was what came up. Is this the guy? Can't say I watched the clip, it looked pretty dull.



In terms of WSL guys in the UK, it is very important who there were, as there are/were lots of frauds and seminar students. Who did you train with?



He challenged me to a fight with his friend. Seems a bizarre thing to do on a discussion forum



I identified Peter Irving as a low to mid level MMA fighter. This is a fact verifiable by checking his record, not an act of disrescpect towards Peter Irving, and certainly not towards Alan. It was really nice of Alan to jump in and protect his friend from this offence by offering a random stranger the chance to go and fight him. You don't find that a bit odd? I wonder why it is banned on the forum?



Your grammar is very confused again. It was me that was asking for the money, in order to fight Alan's representative for Alan's purposes. Why would I fight Peter Irving for no money? Fighting is hard work.



Alan often offers no money to people while trying to get them to fight in his shows. He usually wants them to do it for the exposure. Understandably these offers are not very popular among the UK MMA community. Simple common sense I would say.

Once again you make a a stupid statement based on your limited insight. When I was running UK shows they where very well put together and for the passion of developing and showcasing fighters. All pro fighters where paid on my shows. Plus well looked after. Hotels, flights from Europe with their coaches, taxis, food. The list goes on. Amateur fighters where not pay as that is what amateur means. But they got great ticket deals and lots of free stuff like mma gloves. Everyone loved fighting on my events.

You what to be paid to fight right so hat is your pro record? you seem to know a lot about the sport. What is your full name so we can look you up.

 

[Alan Orr]

I have no idea



Offering your friend to fight someone because you are arguing with them on a forum is insane. I have sparred guys like Peter Irving before so would be possible. I am just not interested in providing free promotional material for Alan.



Of course I introduced myself to Alan. I don't think I had ever argued with him on a forum at that time. I went to see because I was training MMA in London at the time when he was spammng the forums. He was based in Swiss Cottage. Training wasn't particularly impressive. There was no sparring apart from grappling which they were very bad at. Alan came across as a bit of an egomaniac, but in an understandable kind of way. Prices were a bit silly. The main impression I came away with was TMA teacher jumping on the MMA bandwagon, students more money than sense. It was obviously a money earning enterprise rather than a serious place to train given options in that area at that time. That's about all that happened. My real insight into it happened somewhere else.

You came to a small general class 8 years ago for an hour? So you think you know about our training and level? My guys at the the where fighting MMA and had good success already. What is your background?
Our main training was not in the general beginners class. Of course back then our grappling was not what is is now as we are humble enough to keep learning and not just post rude statements on people we meet for a hour. I do not remember you introducing yourself and making any rude comments to our faces. Funny that. Again your make statements based on your limited insights. I traveled around the world to train skills for my guys and their MMA fights and at that time where really just testing our wing chun for our own groups development. With 100's of wins and great feedback we are very happy with our efforts in MMA and wing chun.
Money making ?? you mean hours and hours of free coaching and traveling with my guys? You have no clue and at just a sad troll. The same guys are in London and if you want to come and train then just please make it clear next time that you need to see our skill.

Peter Irving is one of the best coaches and best fighters I have been luck to work with and call a friend. To listen to some fool on a forum talk down his mma record makes me sick.