Recent Video by Alan Orr

[SaulGoodman]

I'm going to have a chat with Neil to see if he can recollect who you are. Based on your incredibly incisive observational skills on what everybody is doing wrong, especially Alan Orr and his people you must be some kind of prodigy. If that is the case I'm sure he will remember you...

 

[guy b.]

I'm going to have a chat with Neil to see if he can recollect who you are. Based on your incredibly incisive observational skills on what everybody is doing wrong, especially Alan Orr and his people you must be some kind of prodigy. If that is the case I'm sure he will remember you...

That may be the case. Do you remember the old SFUK forum, before cagewarriors?

 

[KPM]

Any body manipulation of the kind shown in recent clips only appears when Alan and Neil are contesting from the chi sau type platform they use. I can't see it in broken contact striking or in grappling.

---And I stated before....these things happen when a bridge is established. "Broken contact striking" means no bridge. It is the transitions between actual rolling and the light sparring that count in this example. Any of that contact could have continued as sparring rather than going back to rolling.



There isn't any sparring here. Argument appears to be a straw man - where is pushing from the shoulder and bending at the waist emphasised in any wing chun?

---I clearly said this was an explanation of how these elements are used in sparring.



This again appears to be a kind of chi sau contest

---Showing transitions to light sparring.



I still don't see it being used in real time.

----Show me an example of what you mean. Let's see some VT being used in "real time."

 

[guy b.]

And I stated before....these things happen when a bridge is established. "Broken contact striking" means no bridge. It is the transitions between actual rolling and the light sparring that count in this example. Any of that contact could have continued as sparring rather than going back to rolling.

Does sticking with arms ever happen in real fighting? Arms clash, but I don't see time to effect the whole body in the way Alan is showing (i.e. slowly) during these fleeting moments.

I clearly said this was an explanation of how these elements are used in sparring.

We just had a big thread about po pai in wing chun, didn't we?

Showing transitions to light sparring

Where do such transitions exist in fighting when nobody is entering or exiting chi sau?

Show me an example of what you mean. Let's see some VT being used in "real time."

I'm sorry, I don't have video

 

[JowGaWolf]

Does sticking with arms ever happen in real fighting? Arms clash, but I don't see time to effect the whole body in the way Alan is showing (i.e. slowly) during these fleeting moments.



We just had a big thread about po pai in wing chun, didn't we?



Where do such transitions exist in fighting when nobody is entering or exiting chi sau?



I'm sorry, I don't have video

Too bad this is a wing chun forum and too bad I didn't record tonight's sparring session. I did a lot of redirecting of force tonight during free sparring.

 

[Alan Orr]

I'm interested because CSL wing chun makes extraordinary claims. Generally I have no problem with what you are doing and I think it is good to see wing chun in MMA. But I don't understand the basis of some of the claims being made, and explanations given are very minimal, or completely incomprehensible when they come from HS. My opinion is of course guided by my experience of wing chun, how else could it be?



I haven't sparred with Peter Irving. But I think I could cope with a friendly sparring session with most MMA fighters at that level, having done so. I have sparred with some of the people you train/did train, for example Neil Broadbent, who was good. I don't think there is anything wrong with Peter Irvings skills and I respect his ability and his willingness to put it on the line. But merely saying "Peter Irving" is not an argument ending statement in the way your student intended it to be.



Then please provide meaning. I would genuinely like to understand the methadology involved and the purpose.



Ok, so chi sau in CSL wing chun is about learning to effect the body and balance of the opponent. Would you say that it is a kind of standing grappling method? How do the energy and presssure control skills developend in this chi sau translate to fighting? I am unclear how the chi sau skills, which appear to be used literally as if chi sau is a type of fighting, translate to actual fighting?



I haven't said it is simple, and I have seen some of your other clips. The drills, order and purpose of teaching appears to be different to those in VT I have experienced and I would like to understand why, given claims being made.



I wouldn't expect sparring to look like chi sau in the VT I am familiar with. But then chi sau isn't applied literally. In CSL it appears to be applied literally, i.e. chi sau is treated as a kind of competition. Is this correct?

appears... You just guess and throw out what you think.But you have no clue. Your Wing Chun is not the same so you can't seem to understand people have different approaches. I'm not hear to explain my whole system to you.

 

[Alan Orr]

Hi Alan, welcome to MartialTalk! I've enjoyed watching your videos on YouTube.

I do have a question regarding the sparring videos posted above. How much do the boxing gloves affect your choice of technique and angle of punches? I'm seeing a lot more hooking punches than I'm used to from most WC practitioners. It looks like you are mostly using these when your sparring partner is covering up with a tight guard and you need to get around his gloves. If you were fighting bareknuckle or with MMA gloves, do you think you would be sending more of those punches down the centerline and through his guard?

Thank you Tony. Boxing gloves to reduced a few things but that add many more. The development of timing, conditioning and focus is all important with gloves. Yes we do spar bareknuckle as well and more or less the angles are the same.

 

[guy b.]

appears... You just guess and throw out what you think.But you have no clue. Your Wing Chun is not the same so you can't seem to understand people have different approaches. I'm not hear to explain my whole system to you.

You really used the opportunity to describe your different approach.

I guess only questions from people that already agree are welcome. Makes sense; you need to make a living at the end of the day.

 

[SaulGoodman]

That may be the case. Do you remember the old SFUK forum, before cagewarriors?

Holy sh@t I was being sarcastic, I do know Niel but as for your "vt skills" I suspect if he does indeed remember you he won't be singing your praises.

You really used the opportunity to describe your different approach.

I guess only questions from people that already agree are welcome. Makes sense; you need to make a living at the end of the day.

I don't know you or Alan, "guy" but you come across as incredibly arrogant and patronising. You're English composition is very good and some of your observations are interesting. But why such a hardon for these guys? I've watched a lot of Alan's clips and though don't consider myself a genius or the worlds best wc practitioner, a lot of what he shows make sense. I don't agree with all he says but that's how it should be. I trained for many years under master Sofos , which is where I know Niel from. I have touched hands with guys from Clive potter, ex Nino Bernardo and other WSL people. Did I destroy them, no. Did they destroy me,no. The point is, you seem so heavily invested in the WSL paradigm that you refuse to see any good in other people's methods. For the record I haven't touched hands with any csl people but will endeavour to get to one of Alan's seminars the next time he is in the uk. Btw, saying to the guy that he wasted the oppurtuniyu to explain his system to you is incredibly arrogant. Tbh there is a dearth of his clips out there which more than address your questions and perhaps after viewing them all if you still don't understand their content maybe the problem is with your comprehension of what you are seeing. If you're so interested in learning/understanding this guys methods, rather than continually asking for free lessons why not go to one of his seminars and pay like everyone else. I will.

 

[KPM]

You really used the opportunity to describe your different approach.

I guess only questions from people that already agree are welcome. Makes sense; you need to make a living at the end of the day.

Like I said before, Alan obviously has little time or patience for people who seem to be just looking for things to criticize and not truly trying to understand what he is doing. Maybe that's not you. But you sure come across that way on the forum.

 

[KPM]

Does sticking with arms ever happen in real fighting?

--Heck yeah it does! Things don't have to go directly to a body-to-body clinch. If you actually know Wing Chun, that transition from unattached punching to what you are calling "grappling" is where Wing Chun shines. Otherwise, why spend all that time practicing Chi Sau? Jow Ga Wolf just mentioned doing the same thing in his recent sparring session.



We just had a big thread about po pai in wing chun, didn't we?

---Yeah. So what's your point?



Where do such transitions exist in fighting when nobody is entering or exiting chi sau?

---So you think fighting is only "unattached" kickboxing??

 

[SaulGoodman]

Good observations KPM, wc is a short bridge system which should shine in standing clinch range. I have studied submission wrestling and can see the beauty of the art in the stand up grappling range.

 

[guy b.]

Holy sh@t I was being sarcastic, I do know Niel but as for your "vt skills" I suspect if he does indeed remember you he won't be singing your praises

Maybe I should ask him if he remembers "Saul Goodman".

I don't know you or Alan, "guy" but you come across as incredibly arrogant and patronising.

Why is it arrogant to ask questions when big claims are made? Apparently the CSL group has reinvented wing chun. I would like to know why and how. That is all.

You're English composition is very good and some of your observations are interesting.

Thanks

a lot of what he shows make sense.

Alan seems happy to discuss when people are agreeing but not happy to discuss when they are not. To me that seems quite arrogant.

In the clips shown on the previous page Alan shows a very odd "standard" wing chun interpretation of tan, and a really odd CSL jum. I think these are worth discussing, because if the basics of CSL group before they got together are flawed or non-standard, then it might explain some of the subsequent developments.

I trained for many years under master Sofos , which is where I know Niel from

This guy?

I have touched hands with guys from Clive potter, ex Nino Bernardo

No comment

other WSL people.

Who?

Tbh there is a dearth of his clips out there which more than address your questions and perhaps after viewing them all if you still don't understand their content maybe the problem is with your comprehension of what you are seeing.

Not sure you understand what dearth means. I agree btw

maybe the problem is with your comprehension of what you are seeing

A reluctance to answer basic questions, apart from those asked in a sycophantic way, is usually associated with a lack of answers in my experience. Alan seems to have come to the forum for no other reason than to issue a brave proxy challenge match to me via his friend, MMA fighter Peter Irving. This doesn't seem like the behaviour of a balanced individual.

 

[KPM]

Guy wrote:
Apparently the CSL group has reinvented wing chun.


---Just because it is different from what you do does not make it "reinvented." You have posted things about WSLVT that have left me wondering as well. You say that none of the techniques from Chi Sau or Lop Sau etc are actually used in fighting. You say that you don't think there would be any "attachment" to the opponent when fighting...just unattached punching. You say there are no "applications" in WSLVT. You say there is no Tan Da in WSLVT. You say WSLVT is all about the punch. To me, all of this sounds a lot less like "standard" Wing Chun than CSL Wing Chun! So I would be careful about using the word "reinvented" in reference to anyone else's method!


Guy also wrote:
A reluctance to answer basic questions, apart from those asked in a sycophantic way, is usually associated with a lack of answers in my experience.

---Not true at all. As I have already said, Alan has little time or patience for people that are just looking for something to criticize. And someone that has just pronounced that CSL has "reinvented Wing Chun" obviously is not asking questions because they truly want to learn.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Maybe I should ask him if he remembers "Saul Goodman".



Why is it arrogant to ask questions when big claims are made? Apparently the CSL group has reinvented wing chun. I would like to know why and how. That is all.



Thanks



Alan seems happy to discuss when people are agreeing but not happy to discuss when they are not. To me that seems quite arrogant.

In the clips shown on the previous page Alan shows a very odd "standard" wing chun interpretation of tan, and a really odd CSL jum. I think these are worth discussing, because if the basics of CSL group before they got together are flawed or non-standard, then it might explain some of the subsequent developments.

This guy?



No comment



Who?



Not sure you understand what dearth means. I agree btw



A reluctance to answer basic questions, apart from those asked in a sycophantic way, is usually associated with a lack of answers in my experience. Alan seems to have come to the forum for no other reason than to issue a brave proxy challenge match to me via his friend, MMA fighter Peter Irving. This doesn't seem like the behaviour of a balanced individual.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Haha, you got me there! Perhaps abundance should have been substituted for dearth.

Ok, so it's funny that because I mentioned that I trained under the Sofos guys for some time you immediately trawl the net to find that hilarious Sid Sofos "cult" clip to pethaps, in your mind, devalue the weight of my opinion. A tad childish methinks. For the record I left his organization a long time ago and have sought to improve my skills elsewhere.

Like I said the WSL guys I touched hands with were no great shakes. Who were they? I don't think it matters as you would probably say they don't have the real "VT" that only you seem to have.

Calling Mr Orr unbalanced? So not only are you the most enlightened practitioner of "ving tsun" on the planet but you're also a physchiatrist as well, impressive..,

As for the brave proxy challenge match, from what I've read on the other forum you were disrespectful about the pedigree of one of his guys and he offered you the chance of a friendly spar with the said individual so you can show your stuff. Rather than accept the offer you made a counter offer saying you would want payment to do this. Of course no one in their right mind is going to pay an unknown quantity to spar a professional mma fighter, which of course you knew full well before making the offer. A very "brave" get out clause to avoid perhaps showing us that your skills ain't quite what you claim them to be.,.,:

 

[LFJ]

---Well, let's see. Your comment about Alan's video was: "All I see is lead feet, overreaching, and getting punched in the face." Sounds kind of critical to me. I think that falls in the category of seeing something as "bad" or "worse" than whatever you think is your standard. I just asked for video of WSL people showing a better standard....the one you are using for comparison.

Wasn't comparing WC systems. Just stating what I observed while waiting 4 rounds to see the effects of force flow on his opponent, which never appeared.

---This one goes back and forth from Chi Sau into light sparring and back again.

Here Alan explains how some of the forceflow ideas from Chi Sau are applied in sparring:

Here's another one showing the Chi Sau to light sparring transitions:

Here's an explanation of how Chi Sau elements are used in sparring:

Gwo-sau is what you consider free sparring? I thought you were talking about the kind of thing he and Peter were doing.

I don't need another video of explanation.

I'm simply asking where the effects of force flow on the opponent are in their free fighting. The unbalancing and bouncing them around bit.

If it actually works, and they spend so much time on it, one would expect to see it in their fights, but it never seems to appear.

Alan says it's because the force flow is invisible, so unless you understand it, you can't see it.

But no, what would be perfectly visible is the physical effect placed on the opponent's body as their balance is manipulated like in the demo clips. We never see that in free fighting. That's the part Alan won't address.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Lets keep the discussion civil.
As for challenges they are against the rules here.
Perhaps all involved in this thread need to read the rules of the forum

 

[mograph]

Just stating what I observed while waiting 4 rounds to see the effects of force flow on his opponent, which never appeared.

Just checking: which post # contains those clips? I'd like to check them out.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Just checking: which post # contains those clips? I'd like to check them out.

post # 44