Chi Sau & Grappling

[anerlich]

In wrestling, it's done with forward pressure as well as a pulling movement. The elbow on the chest controls the distance. The dummy neck pull is more like a wrestling snap down IMO. I guess what I was trying to say was that Alan could just as easily have picked up the control from wrestling or Muay Thai as WC, and that the movement is not unique to WC.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ I never said it was unique to Wing Chun. I only singled it out for attention in this clip because it DOES come from the dummy form (at least some versions of the form) and therefore is part of Wing Chun. So it doesn't have to be seen as an "add on" from wrestling.

 

[anerlich]

I didn't say or mean to imply that you said it was unique to Wing Chun. I just pointed out that it wasn't.

 

[dudewingchun]

So many martial arts' have the same techniques just used slightly different and with different intentions, though we all have the same type of body, there are only a finite amount of techniques that we can come up with, so of course lots of arts will have the same looking technique.

Alan teaches wing chun for his standup. Why can't people accept that? You don't even know the theory behind the movements so how can you judge?

 

[guy b]

Alan teaches wing chun for his standup. Why can't people accept that? You don't even know the theory behind the movements so how can you judge?

I can accept that Alan teaches a system he calls wing chun, although it doesn't appear to resemble the VT system I know in terms of fundamental ideas, and seems like quite a different system.

I suppose some of the issue that people have with clips of fighters vs clips of training is that Alan shows what appear to be applications in his videos (e.g. bouncing people with force flow) which then don't appear in fights. I don't think anyone is saying that Alan's fighters are bad or anything, they appear to be effective strikers.

Is that ok?

 

[drop bear]

I can accept that Alan teaches a system he calls wing chun, although it doesn't appear to resemble the VT system I know in terms of fundamental ideas, and seems like quite a different system.

I suppose some of the issue that people have with clips of fighters vs clips of training is that Alan shows what appear to be applications in his videos (e.g. bouncing people with force flow) which then don't appear in fights. I don't think anyone is saying that Alan's fighters are bad or anything, they appear to be effective strikers.

Is that ok?

Force flow like all fighting is a mechanical process. Many systems teach exactly the same effect without ever having a clue what force flow is.

So in one aspect force flow is a made up idea.

But these made up ideas are designed to convey and train a concept that may be difficult to grasp otherwise.

So in boxing as a quick concept. Sometimes you may have to train by holding a tennis ball under your chin.

This is not designed to carry tennis balls around while you are fighting. But to teach you to keep your chin down.

The question then becomes not whether the concepts are correct. But whether the concepts are the best way of acquiring skills.

Fundamental ideas are a training tool. Not the end result. You may need to expand your idea of what is a fundamental idea.

Mma has this concept layered on top of its other concepts.

You gotta know the rules before you break the rules.

 

[guy b]

Force flow like all fighting is a mechanical process. Many systems teach exactly the same effect without ever having a clue what force flow is.

What is force flow?

 

[drop bear]

What is force flow?

Ultimately it is a tennis ball.

 

[guy b]

Ultimately it is a tennis ball.

I understand that you think it is like holding a tennis ball under your chin. But what does it entail?

 

[drop bear]

I understand that you think it is like holding a tennis ball under your chin. But what does it entail?

It is a way of conveying an idea it isn't actually anything.

 

[guy b]

What is the idea?

 

[dudewingchun]

I can accept that Alan teaches a system he calls wing chun, although it doesn't appear to resemble the VT system I know in terms of fundamental ideas, and seems like quite a different system.

I suppose some of the issue that people have with clips of fighters vs clips of training is that Alan shows what appear to be applications in his videos (e.g. bouncing people with force flow) which then don't appear in fights. I don't think anyone is saying that Alan's fighters are bad or anything, they appear to be effective strikers.

Is that ok?

Yea obviously Alan does not teach WSL Ving Tsun.

I see your point, trained wrestlers are hard to throw around because they also know how to use their body and everyone in mma knows grappling and clinch work. If you saw one of his fighters going against a dude on the street or someone who isn't a grappler they would be throwing them around. Can you pull off an armbar perfectly against someone resisting who also knows what to do?

 

[KPM]

I suppose some of the issue that people have with clips of fighters vs clips of training is that Alan shows what appear to be applications in his videos (e.g. bouncing people with force flow) which then don't appear in fights.

And likewise, we have never really seen a WSLVT person showing all the Bong/Lop cycle defending and striking that we see in every single demo video of WSLVT actually being used effectively in any fights.

 

[KPM]

What is the idea?

Now you are obviously trolling.

 

[LFJ]

And likewise, we have never really seen a WSLVT person showing all the Bong/Lop cycle defending and striking that we see in every single demo video of WSLVT actually being used effectively in any fights.

Why would you expect to? Abstract and mutual drilling is not application practice. Who's going to do a bong/laap cycle with us in a fight?!

The unbalancing "bridge" skills Alan shows in chi-sau he says are directly applicable to free-fighting, but we never see that in their team's fights.

 

[LFJ]

I see your point, trained wrestlers are hard to throw around because they also know how to use their body and everyone in mma knows grappling and clinch work. If you saw one of his fighters going against a dude on the street or someone who isn't a grappler they would be throwing them around. Can you pull off an armbar perfectly against someone resisting who also knows what to do?

Armbars have won MMA fights.

The unbalancing "bridge" skills, which Alan says are directly applicable in fighting, have never once even appeared in their MMA fights.

If it is only practical against untrained people, why would it be a part of their MMA training?

 

[guy b]

Yea obviously Alan does not teach WSL Ving Tsun.

I see your point, trained wrestlers are hard to throw around because they also know how to use their body and everyone in mma knows grappling and clinch work. If you saw one of his fighters going against a dude on the street or someone who isn't a grappler they would be throwing them around. Can you pull off an armbar perfectly against someone resisting who also knows what to do?

I think the problem with that analogy is that arm bars are regularly pulled off in MMA competition against people who know how to defend them. I haven't seen the force flow except in application demos.

 

[guy b]

Now you are obviously trolling.

Drop bear appears to be pretending that he knows what "force flow" is. Since others have had problems describing what it means, it would be useful to hear drop bear's definition.

 

[guy b]

And likewise, we have never really seen a WSLVT person showing all the Bong/Lop cycle defending and striking that we see in every single demo video of WSLVT actually being used effectively in any fights.

That drill isn't an application. Alan shows applications. Completely different

 

[drop bear]

What is the idea?

That you need to be structurally in a better position than the other guy.

Force flow kind of explains this by giving and recieving energy with a whole bunch of sensitivity concepts.