W.C.I, Alan Orr and... Snake Engine?!!!

[Jake104]

Ok so, where does Hawkins Cheung fit into all of this?

---He doesn't. Hawkins Cheung doesn't have anything to do with Hendrik.


I thought what Alan Orr does came from Robert Chu - Hawkins Cheung- IP Man? No? This snake stuff seems like an after thought? Hendrick seems a little late to the party?

---Robert Chu's primary "root" Sifu is Hawkins Cheung. But Robert has learned from many sources and studied several different versions of Wing Chun. He has incorporated things into his "Chu Sau Lei" Wing Chun that he feels fit well together and are valuable. The mechanics and "Force Flow" methods than Hendrik teaches is one of those elements. But Robert still credits Hawkins Cheung as his "root" Sifu.

Fair enough. I like Hawkins and all this Hendrick stuff was making me start to question that

 

[KPM]

Sorry KPM but my head hurts now and I'am even more confused. So you defend a guy who disagrees with your defending him???? That is crazy. I'm trying to see your side of things. It just turns into a snooze fest when it comes to talking about Hendrick and all things associated. Like Geezer said at least Alan shows it. You've even demonstrated it and he said you were doing it wrong?

Obviously Hendrick is a narcissist and wants all the credit and glory?

Yeah, its kind of crazy Jake! I see value in what Robert and Alan say and teach. They have it directly from Hendrik...in person. But Hendrik does NOT come across well in the forums and he and I have had our disagreements. I get the distinct impression that I could quote him verbatim from one of his videos and he would still disagree with me simply because I have not learned it from him in person. I find him very frustrating to deal with on the forums. Maybe it would be different in person. So I choose to learn what Robert and Alan have to teach and for now ignore what Hendrik says because he just confuses me. But since what Robert and Alan teach come from Hendrik.....well, you see my dilemma I'm sure! ;-)

 

[Jake104]

Yeah, its kind of crazy Jake! I see value in what Robert and Alan say and teach. They have it directly from Hendrik...in person. But Hendrik does NOT come across well in the forums and he and I have had our disagreements. I get the distinct impression that I could quote him verbatim from one of his videos and he would still disagree with me simply because I have not learned it from him in person. I find him very frustrating to deal with on the forums. Maybe it would be different in person. So I choose to learn what Robert and Alan have to teach and for now ignore what Hendrik says because he just confuses me. But since what Robert and Alan teach come from Hendrik.....well, you see my dilemma I'm sure! ;-)

Trust me. I get the same impression.

Unless you are getting some sort of monetary compensation for promoting this Snake stuff. I would just train what Robert and Alan Orr teach and look for the validation in applying what they teach. Rather then in validating the origin or history of something that might or might not be.

I believe you've been doing WC for quite a while? So for those of us who have been doing the art for many years . The dilemma becomes can we make it work? Or did we waste half our lives learning something that can never be taken beyond drilling? This is where I like what Alan does. He bridges that gap( pun intended ). Bridging the gap between drills ,sparring, and fighting. Even between sparring and fighting there is some transition. In my little sparring video. I was training a skill. Timing my entries off the punch jab cross whatever. In real life I told him if I HAD to fight you or someone your size. I'd sucker punch him. He's twice my size! If he didn't go down, I'd run! He's a nice guy though. He laughed like yeah you better run.

 

[jks9199]

Gentlemembers,

Let me call your attention to the Rules:

4.16.1 Fraud Busting

Due to its nature, this forum encourages the asking and answering of questions. Many times one member will have questions and concerns about the history, skills, lineage, or paperwork of another member. In other cases, things may be stated on a webpage, flyer or article relating to a member that raises some questions. Sometimes, comments will have been made elsewhere and those issues carried over to MartialTalk.

MartialTalk and its staff encourage the polite and professional search for knowledge. Questions and concerns may be brought up, with the understanding that the other party is under no requirement to answer.

Most questions may be raised within the forums dedicated to a particular art or area of interest. For example, Kenpo Lineage questions in the Kenpo forum, are fine. Others of a more serious note, are to be limited to the “The Great Debate” forum.

Excessive “Inquisitor-style" questioning is not allowed and will be subject to administrative action. If you have had to ask a question more than 3 times, you are most likely running the risk of “excessive’.

In addition, “Hot Pursuit” actions will not be tolerated. The “Hot Pursuit” is defined as asking the same or similar questions in multiple threads and / or forums.

Members who become ‘obsessed”, ‘inquisitors’ or ‘interrogators’ will be subject to administrative action. Members who are involved in excessive arguments that disrupt the forum, may be subject to administrative action due to the disruption of the normal operation of this forum
​

Please keep the prohibition on fraudbusting in mind as you continue to discuss Wing Chun.

jks9199
Administrator

 

[LFJ]

I generally like what Alan shows and talks about in his Youtube clips. It's decent Wing Chun, which is rare enough, but his fight team has also proven itself in MMA, which is extremely rare.

That said, I don't see any snake nonsense or whatnot that Hendrik is always on about in any of their fights.

I see good use of body mechanics in their striking, but none of that snake walk, force flow manipulation stuff ever comes out. They just hit people, because that's the stuff that really works.

 

[JPinAZ]

Thanks for the honest reply Keith, I appreciate your POV, even if we don't fully agree.
Just a few comments and we can move on

Don't you have a HFY certificate to show should anyone question your legitimate connection to Garrett Gee?

What difference would it make if 30 years from now I started changing all sorts of things and all my old sihings call called me out on it - know what I mean?
While a piece of paper would surely show that my Sifu gave me his stamp of approval to teach, my real legitimacy is my skills & abilities to understand, teach and physically demonstrate the HFY system. Can he say the same for that last part?

Have you seen the smear campaign that they have launched recently on multiple forums? I wouldn't want anything to do with them either! They have basically kicked him out of the lineage, so why shouldn't he announce he is no longer maintaining any affiliation with them?

haha, yeah, I've seen that train wreck. Maybe they are as tired of all the nonsense and drama as well?

He has taken what his Sifu taught him, eliminated the non-Wing Chun elements, and expanded his understanding of the biomechanics and application of what he learned. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I think the Cho family sees something wrong with it..

BTW, who is anyone to question his sifu after only a few years as a public student? I'd say that's a lot of arrogance (and ignorance) for anyone to feel they know better than their own sifu after only a few years training. That's a big claim to make wouldn't you say?

.. Hendrik makes a habit of disagreeing with most of what I say, even when I'm trying to back him up! So yeah....why back him up you ask? Just crazy I guess. ;-)
....
---Yes. Good suggestion! What do you want to talk about?

I'd say anything and anyone that willingly steps into this mess is a little bit crazy... (if not a lot!)

Loi Lau Hoi sung? Just not on this thread - I think I've wasted too much of my time on this subject as it is

 

[Jake104]

So I learned. Snake engine threads =. So I'm moving on.

 

[damiannc]

So I'm reading The latest issue and I'm pleased to see an article by Alan Orr (got a lot of respect for that bloke, doing good things with VT in an mma setting,) , lo and behold! It's all about the snake engine and six concepts espoused by a recently controversial member... Didn't realise Orr's sifu, Robert Chu was part of that trinity along with Sergio.

Not sure what to think as I respect Alan Orr's practical use of VT, but this whole "original 1840's wing chun snake body" concept?

Don't mean to flog a dead horse here, I don't want to start arguments, fraud busting or bashing anyone , I have no personal experience,or axe to grind.

But has anyone on the forum looked into this method (for want of a better word) properly? What do you think?

Well its a while ago now for this talk stream and by now it must be clear that for Wing Chun to be "internal" it has to have an engine other than a good back foot and hip.
Chu Shong Tin seems to have discovered this or a similar method.
It all works beautifully.
Its probably finally down to what you call it.
Lets just be happy that all these guys are passionate and unblinkered enough to seek out this knowledge and then pass it on. Wingchun can never be Small circle Tai Chi without some other engine than the Ip Man engine.

 

[APL76]

I agree. But I don't think Robert Chu can claim any ties to any lineage as I've read he has wandered the WC landscape far and wide for many years training under many different masters/sifu's/lineages, etc.

On another note: I wonder if there is any high-level practitioner from the Yuen Kay San lineage on here or other forums? I have questions about that line.

I have learned Yuen Kay San wing chun from a disciple of Sum Nung for the last 20 years. I would not dare call myself a high level practitioner though. I would be happy to chat about it if you like however I might be limited in just how much detail I can go into.

 

[geezer]

Well its a while ago now for this talk stream and by now it must be clear that for Wing Chun to be "internal" it has to have an engine other than a good back foot and hip. ... Wingchun can never be Small circle Tai Chi without some other engine than the Ip Man engine.

Um...er... uh... What?

 

[damiannc]

Um...er... uh... What?

Well...thats one response l was taught that Wing Chun was referred to as Small circle Tai chi in some circles(Fatsan Wingchun)and l was interested in that aspect though l never got to see properly in my more active training years. Some were lucky enough to and we reap the rewards of their training. The functional internal skills are becoming more available now than in the 1980s. Rather than being talked about with no real backup.

 

[wckf92]

Well...thats one response l was taught that Wing Chun was referred to as Small circle Tai chi in some circles(Fatsan Wingchun)and l was interested in that aspect though l never got to see properly in my more active training years. Some were lucky enough to and we reap the rewards of their training. The functional internal skills are becoming more available now than in the 1980s. Rather than being talked about with no real backup.

Maybe start a new thread on this topic(?). Sounds interesting.

 

[geezer]

Well...thats one response l was taught that Wing Chun was referred to as Small circle Tai chi in some circles(Fatsan Wingchun)...

Hmmm... I never heard of Wing Chun referred to as Tai chi ...even the more internal branches. But then I've never been to Fo'shan or had much experience outside of various Yip Man lineages.

Mostly, WC/VT/WT all seem quite different from Tai chi to me. I did know one instructor who pointed out that although we WC people talk a lot about straight lines, that in fact we do use circles. Just very small circles. Sometimes so small that we just rotate on a point ...like the point at the center of a circle ...or the point that is the cross-section of a line.

To his way of thinking, the lines and circles of WC overlapped.

 

[damiannc]

Hmmm... I never heard of Wing Chun referred to as Tai chi ...even the more internal branches. But then I've never been to Fo'shan or had much experience outside of various Yip Man lineages.

Mostly, WC/VT/WT all seem quite different from Tai chi to me. I did know one instructor who pointed out that although we WC people talk a lot about straight lines, that in fact we do use circles. Just very small circles. Sometimes so small that we just rotate on a point ...like the point at the center of a circle ...or the point that is the cross-section of a line.

To his way of thinking, the lines and circles of WC overlapped.

Coming from a Tonglong background myself I never took that literally but rather that Wing Chun also had super sensitivity which could only come from truly feeling the energy and that there was an internal aspect and one day (hint hint) it could be mine.haha. Also tempering some of my more brutal Tonglongishness in Chi sau.
l was a very attentive student but did not become a deciple. I did open a school for some years.
I of course filled in all the gaps in my own mind as to what that meant. Looking at Adam Chu, Sergio etc l believe l had the right idea.. lt makes sence looking at the region (Fatsan...Ermei mt etc)that it can have all this richness and that not all schools would have it all in present time. Even the most basic mechanical Wing Chun I have seen is still a pretty good tool.
Sifu did place great emphasis upon forward energy and softness to build real skill. But he was extremely dynamic upon aggressive attack.
My impression was that he was exposed to it( snake engine or whatever you would callit) at some stage but never really got it himself. He also had a White Crane background before Wing Chun.
Now days l see that what l learnt was very much Yeun kay shan lineage. It is a rich and interesting style. I wouldnt say that of the same school now.